How to fix KoS and banditry with this great system

[elf cakes 559]

Yeah! OP needs to suck it up and deal with the KOS situation. Stop cluttering up our forums phoboss!

 

 

 

 

 

;)

but

 

he isn't saying KoS is bad

Edited January 18, 2014 by elf cakes

[phoboss 224]

but

 

he isn't saying KoS is bad

bad mojo was joking, hence the smiley at the end ;)

 

And no I'm not saying KoS is bad, I'm saying its a problem in the magnitude it's currently happening. It's just not realistic. 

[BrainlessZombie 190]

I applaud you Sir. *clapping noises*

[crazykage 1063]

agree or disagree, this man has proposed an idea with careful thought and consideration.

For, THAT, rather than the idea itself, beans....

[phoboss 224]

agree or disagree, this man has proposed an idea with careful thought and consideration.

For, THAT, rather than the idea itself, beans....

Thanks, but like I said it's not so much an idea as an attempt to explain the situation to people who are having trouble understanding what's up with bandits and KoS. And that the problems we're having at the moment, will go away over time, when people get presented with different choices as to how to play the game. Right now it's just, get geared up within an hour or two and then go kill people. Die and repeat. 

And from your signature I'd assume that you like to play that way. Which is a totally valid choice and I support it 100%. BUT I believe there should be consequences to your actions. Meaning, if you go around electro killing fresh spawns, you should have a really hard time fighting off the dozens of zombies coming at you. Or that you should not be able to fix your broken leg alone and will have to die alone in the woods ;).

 

My point is, banditry should not be the only choice people have and it should certainly not be the easiest one either. It should take careful planing and a tactical approach to be a bandit. A challenge if you will. That's what I like about being a bandit. Having a worthy opponent I have to strike down. 

Edited January 18, 2014 by phoboss

[Westerburg 41]

Best Idea I can come up with for helping with KoS and promoting teamplay rather than complete douchebaggery is to...

 

A) Make Ammo a fuck load more rare. If ammo is damned near impossible to find, every bullet has to count. If you aren't sure when the next time you'll find a spare mag is and your rolling with half a clip of m4, you're really going to have to think about how you use your weapons. Shooting random noobs who aren't going to give you anything is going to to be prohibitive. This could make things a bit too tough for some, so you can always make ammo craftable. To do this, however without making things even easier than before, you'd have to throw in each of the base ingredients, plus ammo making equipment (You'd need something to assemble ammo, as well as something to melt down metal to actually make the bullets, which would take up a fair amount of space not counting ingredients) as well as making a change to crafting to having to find plans and recipes on how to build such things before you can even build them. This could give a purpose to all the random books strewn about in the game and give more depth to crafting in general. Wanna build a fire? Read a camping book. Need a quick splint or something of that nature? Good thing I flipped through that pocket SAS field survival guide I found in that cabin yesterday (I keep one in my jacket pocket in the big blue room just in case I'm ever stranded on Mt Ranier or need to learn how to save myself from choking if no one else is around). Knowledge of how to do that stuff could be restricted per life (You forget how to make bullets if you die, until you can find a new book)) or even restricted to the hive you are playing on once private hives become available (KNowledge has to be learned per hive, and then the hive could decide whether knowledge is kept between lives or if you have to relearn on each life).

 

B) Make zombies tougher. Right now they're pretty easy to kill. There's not a lot of em, and pretty much one shot with an m4 anywhere will put one down. Maybe they can only be put down permanently with a headshot to destroy the brain, or maybe it in general takes 5 or 6 shots to kill one, or 2 to the head (Doubletap people, it's an important rule in the zombie apocalypse) Hell, military zombie could even very well be wearing the armor they were wearing in their life. How much tougher would it be to kill a zombie that died in a kevlar vest and a helmet? Instead of being mere models, zombies would have a toughness equivilent to the clothes they are wearing (Giving zombies their own full set of clothes I would assume cause a lot of lag, as each one at that point would be the equivilent of another player, just ai controlled, hence just an overall toughness based on the model type of the zombie. Military zombies would be harder to kill than some zed shambling around in a pair of shorts and a flannel shirt)

 

c) Have high killing areas such as major cities and military bases have a way higher zombie count than rural areas or small towns/villages. Kamenka would have had a small living population before the outbreak, and you'd have to assume that more than a few people fled before they were killed to other areas in hopes of safety so you'd have a reltaviely low population of zeds there. 20 houses would be twenty families, don't count children that might have lived there since no children zombies, houses spread out a bit so you'd assume the chances of escaping the town alive were fairly high, so we'll say even 10 families worth (Mothers and fathers). That would give you about 10-20 zombies total in the town unless some are kited there.  Cherno on the other hand is a fairly major city for the map. Adding too many walkers to the area would cause a lot of lag, so you get fairly conservative with the zombies and a spawn system similar to the mod where it's not gonna pump zombies into the area unless someone has been there recently or is in the area, and during high traffic in Cherno throw in say 100 zeds, maybe lower it to 30 shuffling about the area if there's only a couple of people there with a fast respawn rate to keep the horde count up. Then you take an area like Balota and it's airfield, or the NW airfield. NW has a fairly sizable town near it, and balota has a refugee camp as well as a decent sized town. This is where people would be fleeing to during the initial outbreak. You'd have a decent sized population of refugee zombies (Normal types that are fairly easy to take down) as well as the bulk of tougher to kill military zeds. The army would have been making their last stand at places like this, and a rush of refugees could cause chaos, resulting in a lot of infection being spread around. This is where most of the ammo and guns will be so it should be made tough to access. A lot of teamwork and a lot of strategy would be required to get to the ammo/ supplies to make more ammo, forcing people to work together to push through or sneak past the horde, even if those people only turn on each other later when it comes time to divvy up the loot.

 

With things set up with any combination of the above ways (If such a thing is possible in the game engine), you've essentially solved a lot of the major problems that people have. You've increased the challenge of the game, given depth to the crafting system, and put people into a position where it would be a better and easier option to work together, or at the very least not shoot everything that moves. People will be forced to take stock of the situation and really think about the choices they make. KoS will go down if you are camping Cherno with 30 rounds of ammo on you and you see a recent spawn sneaking through the alleys with the hope of finding a tin of sardines with a knife. Sure you could kill that guy, but there's 100 zombies within a half a mile that are going to come running when they hear that m4 fire off a round. You'll be stuck at the top of that fire station with more zeds than you've got ammo, and how many you think you'll be able to wade through with a fire axe when they start climbing the stairs to get at your meatsuit?

 

Just my two cents.

[phoboss 224]

Sounds about right. Make the game harder = less KoS. You just come to a point where you can't "afford" to kill everyone around you. You'll need help. 

[atmaca (DayZ) 48]

Thank you for explaining how KoS and Banditiry is different. A lot people here is simply too ignorant to realise non-kos players have nothing against banditry. They usually be like "YOU WANT FRIENDSHIP AND PVE ONLY THEN RIGHT? FUCK YOU THIS IS DAYZ"... geez at last there's someone logical... thank you for that again.

 

Now back to the topic, I totally agree increasing zombie threat is the way to go. Zombie hordes rampaging when they hear a gunshot, that would be really cool. But I'm not sure devs can achieve this since they already expressed how extremely hard (lol) to implement zombie AI and I don't expect them to overcome this.

 

So we are left with sanity system. I don't believe sanity system combined with drugs could punish bandits. Considering only killers would carry drugs to reduce the effects of insanity, bandits now should kill other bandits more then innocents to survive. Why would this be bad, bandits go for pvp already.

 

btw I just read the rare ammo idea above and that's also better. But then again we will see kids crying like "YOU'RE RESTRICTING ME FROM KILLING OTHERS, ITS A CHOICE THIS IS DAYZ I CAN DO WHATEVER I WANT!!!"

Edited January 18, 2014 by atmaca

[phoboss 224]

Thank you for explaining how KoS and Banditiry is different. A lot people here is simply too ignorant to realise non-kos players have nothing against banditry. They usually be like "YOU WANT FRIENDSHIP AND PVE ONLY THEN RIGHT? FUCK YOU THIS IS DAYZ"... geez at last there's someone logical... thank you for that again.

 

Now back to the topic, I totally agree increasing zombie threat is the way to go. Zombie hordes rampaging when they hear a gunshot, that would be really cool. But I'm not sure devs can achieve this since they already expressed how extremely hard (lol) to implement zombie AI and I don't expect them to overcome this.

 

So we are left with sanity system. I don't believe sanity system combined with drugs could punish bandits. Considering only killers would carry drugs to reduce the effects of insanity, bandits now should kill other bandits more then innocents to survive. Why would this be bad, bandits go for pvp already.

 

btw I just read the rare ammo idea above and that's also better. But then again we will see kids crying like "YOU'RE RESTRICTING ME FROM KILLING OTHERS, ITS A CHOICE THIS IS DAYZ I CAN DO WHATEVER I WANT!!!"

Zombies will be improved over time. It's a performance issue at the moment. Once that's fixed, zombie counts will increase and the AI will get better. Like I said in the original post a sanity system is not a viable option because it punishes a certain playstyle. Which is not in everyones interest and therefor has no place in DayZ. For every idea you think of you have to ask yourself one simple question. Does it affect everyone equally? If the answer is no, then it will not get implemented into DayZ.

[ghua 44]

there is one problem with less ammo/weapons approach: you are making geared players more vulnerable. Right now when I am geared up, I am the boss. Despite this fresh spawns still try to attack me to get my gear.

 

What I would do is I would minimize chances of noobs knocking out the veterans, especially if there is some kind of helmet involved.

There is no solution to kos, I found that two ingredients are helping ppl kill each other - it is fear and lack of communication. You yell "friendly", he yells "friendly" and then you see him coming into room with a gun ready, so you shoot him. maybe you should yell "friendly, but keep your distance" and you both would walk away from this encounter? :) i think it is worth consideration

[General Zod 1118]

One of the reason KoS is so popular right now is that once you gear up there isn't much to do in game any more. You have three choices

1. Be a hero - helping people

2. Be a bandit - robbing people

3. Be a KoS - just kill for your amusement and despair of others

 

Once there are things to do after you gear up KoS will drop on it's own because all those bored players will have something to do. 

Also people some people are trying things, I started with a 3 people bandit/harassment squad, we travelled around the map robbing people or just messing with them, after that for two days I was wandering the map on my own with a mosin killing everything, just to see what's that like, got bored fast. After that during one day I helped out three different people, gave them water and food and helped one unarmed survivor clear out zombies so that he could loot balota and nearby base. 

Edited January 20, 2014 by chmielu1258

[Jimbo_au 18]

why they don't just add a craftable bomb with a dead man's switch/trigger that sits in your backpack, hate kosers and not one yourself go looting with this. options could be...

 

-Destroys gear and body and kills anyone in a 15 meter radius.

-Only can be triggered by death.

-Can clearly see when you have it equipped, may not be able to equip any other weapon while it is.

-Takes a long time setting it up so kosers cannot just quickly switch when in trouble (say 1 minute)

-Could attract zombies in the area.

-Could be heard from 1 km away.

 

you will never stop people killing just to kill, but now you can guard yourself against people who want your gear, now they have to hold you up not just kos you.

Edited January 20, 2014 by Jimbo_au

[phoboss 224]

 

I don't know why they don't just add a craftable bomb with a dead man's switch/trigger that sits in your backpack, hate kosers and not one yourself go looting with this, it will destroy your body and gear on death, want to kos well just equip gun and make it so it takes 30 seconds to set up the dead man's switch so you cannot do both, and of course only death can trigger the bomb you cannot do it yourself, also when zombies become a bigger threat maybe it attracts a crap load of em, plus other players would hear it from a km away.

 

 

I kos and if I was going for your loot I would hold you up.

 

Dead man switch and suicide bombing is being talked about. Problem is, it brings all kinds of ethical questions with it.

[Westerburg 41]

Ethical schmethical. Limiting something in a game because it's taboo IRL is absurd in a game like dayz. In the apocalypse all the rules go out the window. The weak are meat and the strong do eat and all that. Sabotaging your stuff or even sacrificing yourself to take out a group of enemies just to save your friends is something that is gonna happen. Sometimes out of spite, sometimes out of rampant insanity, but also out of a sense of honor and preservation. A mother ferret, if she feels that some larger predator is going to eat her children, will preemtively eat them to prevent the predator from doing such.  Miles Dyson, when shot and bleeding out in the cyberdyne facility, pulled a bomb with a dead man's switch to destroy the building and buy John Conner and entourage the precious time they needed to escape the T-1000. Kamikaze pilots in WWII would fly planes into enemy ships and buildings to level the playing field and do as much collateral damage as possible. Neo fought a hundred agents then later sacrificed himself just to infect Smith with a virus that would destroy his code. Ellen Ripley threw herself into a pool of molten lead to prevent a Xenomorph queen from being born. The Devil's rejects drive a car full speed at a police roadblock playing Freebird because 'Fuck it, we're already dead.'  Shaun ran, shouting all the way to lead a horde of Zombies away from the Winchester so that his friends could get to safety, only to contemplate suicide when all hope seemed lost. David Drayton kills his son, a cute chick and two old people with his last for bullets then steps outside to bring the attention of interdimensional bug monsters because there was nothing else he will do. Spock floods himself with radiation attempting to restore Warp capabilities to the enterprise because 'the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one'.  I could go on, but when faced with overwhelming numbers or a hopeless cause, people will result to pretty extreme measures, and some will do the same to protect the safety of the group.

 

Hell, in BF3 I would regularly drop a grenade at my own feet if I knew I was already a dead man in an attempt to do as much collateral damage as I could. How many times have you driven a jeep covered in c4 to take out a particularly well defended location that your group just couldn't get close enough to?

[General Zod 1118]

Ethical schmethical. Limiting something in a game because it's taboo IRL is absurd in a game like dayz. In the apocalypse all the rules go out the window.

Sure, but we live in a strange world and as such, if they add suicide bombing followers of one particular religion who are renowned for such acts, might become offended, and than devs are in trouble. 

Edited January 20, 2014 by chmielu1258

[morrow 19]

Ahhhhhhhhh I wanted to join to tell you it's just that you succkkkkkkkk WHYYYYYYY.

[phoboss 224]

Sure, but we live in a strange world and as such, if they add suicide bombing followers of one particular religion who are renowned for such acts, might become offended, and than devs are in trouble.

Not only that, all kinds of people will come forward and say it's wrong. Members of the armed forces for example. And that could hurt sales.

But I totally agree, for me there are no real taboos in games, jokes or movies. Suicide bombing, eating other people, I couldn't care less, it's a game. A sandbox, so let me play the way I want to.

Edited January 20, 2014 by phoboss

[Munchermanjz 36]

I agree completely, They are different. Theres a lot of difference between the two and once the game is more developed, KoS will drop. I'm replying however because you left a post on my thread telling me to read this post as if mine was in any way related... it was not. I was suggesting a variant on what many people have suggested, adding a timed logout with a unique animation so people can't just disappear when danger rears its ugly head. The only relation to KoS it had was that a bandit as it stands would be more likely to kill his target over holding him up simply because somewhere between the "Hey hands up, press F2" and the handcuffing, the victim just has to press ESC and click logout to avoid conforntation entirely. I've had this happen more than once and it makes it harder for a bandit to hold someone up when killing them eliminates the logout issue entirely.

Again, I just post this because it seemed you were saying my post was just another KoS whining session, like what I had to say had no validity. The only reason I included KoS in it was because it might get someone's attention to my idea and it does kinda help with the KoS problem, but it in no way fixes it.

[Space Milk 195]

OP don't make titles that do not explain what your topic is about, don't be a noob asking for attention.

People will read it either way.

[Space Milk 195]

Not only that, all kinds of people will come forward and say it's wrong. Members of the armed forces for example. And that could hurt sales.

But I totally agree, for me there are no real taboos in games, jokes or movies. Suicide bombing, eating other people, I couldn't care less, it's a game. A sandbox, so let me play the way I want to.

Not only that, all kinds of people will come forward and say it's wrong. Members of the armed forces for example. And that could hurt sales.

But I totally agree, for me there are no real taboos in games, jokes or movies. Suicide bombing, eating other people, I couldn't care less, it's a game. A sandbox, so let me play the way I want to.

I agree, we should play the way we want.

For me, rape, torture, post birth abortion, and selling weed is the way I want to play.

Totally shouldn't be restricted.

[phoboss 224]

I agree completely, They are different. Theres a lot of difference between the two and once the game is more developed, KoS will drop. I'm replying however because you left a post on my thread telling me to read this post as if mine was in any way related... it was not. I was suggesting a variant on what many people have suggested, adding a timed logout with a unique animation so people can't just disappear when danger rears its ugly head. The only relation to KoS it had was that a bandit as it stands would be more likely to kill his target over holding him up simply because somewhere between the "Hey hands up, press F2" and the handcuffing, the victim just has to press ESC and click logout to avoid conforntation entirely. I've had this happen more than once and it makes it harder for a bandit to hold someone up when killing them eliminates the logout issue entirely.

Again, I just post this because it seemed you were saying my post was just another KoS whining session, like what I had to say had no validity. The only reason I included KoS in it was because it might get someone's attention to my idea and it does kinda help with the KoS problem, but it in no way fixes it.

Yep absolutely. I myself play as a bandit most of the time, but I never kill anyone who has nothing to offer or isn't a threat to me. If I could hold people up, and do a little bandit roleplay, I'd totally to that instead of just shooting them. But right now, they'd just disconnect. So once that's fixed, KoS will go down a bit. And as soon as there are more threads than other players in the game, it will go down even more. I think what would help the most though is making your character more than just his loot. Not a real skill system or anything like that, but some way do develop your character further. So it has some value to you besides your loot. Because if I'm about to be held up by some bandit and I know my gear is gone either way, I'd still try to fight my way out of it, rather than just giving up. But if I have more to lose than just gear, I might way my options first.

[minime1000 78]

I kinda agree. The very fact that this is a game will always make some people act like they wouldn't in real life.

[The Beast of Chernarus 20]

I dont think Banditry or KOS is something to be fixed. You want a realistic game and you get it with that. In Typhoon Haian, parts of the Philippines were safe and there was a town or two where banditry and shootings occured. If you guys can't hack it in a video game, lol in real life.

 

The solution is when clans can make server or teams join a server and form some sort of law by brute force. Any bandits will be hunted down and executed.

Edited January 21, 2014 by The Beast of Chernarus

[General Zod 1118]

The solution is when clans can make server or teams join a server and form some sort of law by brute force. Any bandits will be hunted down and executed.

Edited January 21, 2014 by chmielu1258

[kikiwrx 0]

 

 

 

A) Make Ammo a fuck load more rare. If ammo is damned near impossible to find, every bullet has to count. 

The problem with this train of thought is that it can also work against you. You have 2 bullets left, and you see someone with nice gear who may have more ammo, what keeps me (me as the shooter, although I'm not a bandit/KoS'r in game) from killing your character in hopes that you have more ammo than I do? Supply and demand my friend.

 

I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum. Why are guns usually ONLY found in hot spots that people are camping? Lately it's been hard enough for me to even get a pistol before I get KoS'd. It wouldn't be as big a problem if it was easier to find a weapon to defend myself. 

 

Look at it this way, who are you more inclined to go after. A player with great backpack/vest/helmet with a baseball bat, or same geared player with an M4? My personal experience (found a vest yesterday) was that as soon as I saw a server hopper, he mic'd, "I'm not going to hurt you" although I saw his gun was raised and I just got that gear right around the area he logged on. He proceeded to shoot me and take my vest. Had I had a weapon and ammo, he may have thought the risk of losing his own gear was greater than gaining one piece from me.

 

Now, with that being said, there needs to be a fine line of how many weapons people are running around with. No, I'm not an extremist in that everyone should have an M4 or sniper, but I do think Pistols should be much more readily available at the VERY least. Melee weapons are great, but not against someone who has an assault rifle. Melee weapons have their niche (silently killing zeds as to not alert others, or perhaps sneaking behind a player?) but most players should at the very least be able to pull out a pistol when need be.

Edited January 22, 2014 by kikiwrx