How to stimulate an Emergent Economy in DayZ - discussion

[Publik 404]

Items have no value and storage is limited to the player's body (which can be lost at any time). Before there can be an economy within DayZ, these things need to be addressed.

 

Freeside won't be doing any full trade events until we've got a way to stockpile goods and have the goods to stockpile.

 

Edit: Also, if they do add banknotes we'll probably be using them as our unit of currency.

 

I bet those tradeposts won't at all be camped 24/7 by bandits, bandits who are in no way associated with the people running these 'trade posts'. Yup.

Whether or not you visit our trade events is up to you. Our business is based on trust, and people are more than able to report violations of that trust in public (har har har).

Edited January 12, 2014 by Publik

[Roshi (DayZ) 397]

I think that money will be sorted out by the economy like how diablo 2 was. You would find these items in it called "high runes" which made a lot of really really good gear in it. You would trade these raw high runes for rings and weapons and what not. More rare the item the more high runes your needed. I think we should just play it out as it is. 

 

Yeah - I don't think this approach would fit DayZ personally.

[Atrixia 4]

Don't people already trade? I prefer the adhoc system at the moment. Trading sardines for beans is my number 1 priority

[Roshi (DayZ) 397]

I guess I should highlight that I'm not sure how far this 'Economy' idea would evolve. Being emergent (and not driven by explicit economy rules), the first thing that would be needed is to get trading between players to happen (which it already does to a degree) - trading doesn't need to be successful all of the time (nor should it be) - rather, enough of the time for people to consider it an option.

 

There needs to be a real weighing-up between options when you come across another player - what are the odds of a good outcome if I try to kill them vs if I trade with them, or should I just bug out and not risk the interaction. For me this requires there to be real driving needs that aren't easily met just by scavenging (at least not all the time) - for food, water, ammo, medical supplies, etc. 

 

If you have limited ammo and need to be reasonably close up to the other player to be sure of a kill (because good scopes in good condition are rare), but by doing so put yourself at risk of being killed or injured, and injuries have a real chance of finishing you off later even if you make the kill, but you really need that food or those antibiotics, then you might consider a trade.

 

Also if there is a wide diversity of loot, and some of it is not that useful to you but maybe to others, then you may hoard it just in case someone else will trade for it. 

 

I'm certainly not advocating a set value for items with this idea - I just want to see what emerges if the devs tweak conditions to enable trade to take off. If trade does become a real feature, then a more supply and demand economy may have a chance of emerging as well. I'm not saying it would be easy - but in Alpha you have a chance to play with this to get it right.

[Phantasm (DayZ) 57]

There will be extensive trading amongst players as the game develops more and more.  We saw it in the mod, we'll see it even moreso in the standalone, as the amount of items and things you will be able to do in the SA will be far greater then what the mod did.  We'll have all kinds of things for crafting, all kinds of things for base building, weapons, weapon attachments, and a whole host of things I'm sure we're not yet fully aware of.

 

There won't be any need for a market system as players will be bartering and trading amongst themselves for all of these goods, more and more, as the game becomes much more indepth.  This is helped greatly by the public hive architecture, of course, as it allows players to freely trade from 1 server to the next.

 

There will be items, in game, that we will be lucky if we ever see.  Rocket has said there will be some items so rare, there will only be 1 or just a few PER HIVE.  So you can pretty much guarantee we will see some extensive trading amongst players without needing to do much beside introduce and maintain item rarity across the entire hive.  The players will do the rest amongst themselves without much else.

 

So basically...there is no need to introduce money or monetary type items, in a true apocalypse, money has no value.  What has value are items YOU NEED to survive.  What you have of value is only measured by how much someone else wants/needs it, and vice versa.  This is the only real type of system DayZ should, could, and will have.

Edited January 12, 2014 by Phantasm

[Publik 404]

So basically...there is no need to introduce money or monetary type items, in a true apocolypse, money has no value.  What has value are items YOU NEED to survive.  What you have of value is only measured by how much someone else wants/needs it, and vice versa.  This is the only real type of system DayZ should, could, and will have.

Money is fine. It's that or use bullets, which have their own use.

[Phantasm (DayZ) 57]

Money is fine. It's that or use bullets, which have their own use.

 

Again, money, such as paper bills we use daily, will have no use in a post apocalyptic society.  Bullets, however, would.  The problem with bullets, especially right now in early developement, is that they aren't uncommon.  Once something becomes harder and harder to get, it's value then increases. 

 

As it stands right now, using bullets for any type of currency, imho, would equate to using handfuls of dirt, it also doesn't help matters that the game is nowhere near developed enough to consider the beginning of any kind of free market to blossom.  Not to mention, as it is alpha, there is also the constant looming hive wipes, so there is no point to attaching a value to anything at the moment, once it is stated there will no longer be anymore hive wipes the market will easily begin to develop without much effort, and it will be glorious.

 

Of course, at that point, there will be so much more in the game, crafting, base building, etc....as I said before, in that type of environment, a free market easily comes along with it without needing to make one up yourself.

Edited January 12, 2014 by Phantasm

[Publik 404]

Again, money, such as paper bills we use daily, will have no use in a post apocalyptic society.  Bullets, however, would.  The problem with bullets, especially right now in early developement, is that they aren't uncommon.  Once something becomes harder and harder to get, it's value then increases. 

 

As it stands right now, using bullets for any type of currency, imho, would equate to using handfuls of dirt, it also doesn't help matters that the game is nowhere near developed enough to consider the beginning of any kind of free market to blossom.  Not to mention, as it is alpha, there is also the constant looming hive wipes, so there is no point to attaching a value to anything at the moment, once it is stated there will no longer be anymore hive wipes the market will easily begin to develop without much effort, and it will be glorious.

Or to put what I meant differently, FTC will likely use banknotes as our unit of currency. For example, a soda might be worth 1 banknote. If you want to buy a pair of pants that are worth 5 banknotes, we'll accept anything that totals 5 banknotes in value. If it's a trade between two other parties, we'll be there to offer our price for the items sort of as a price checker, and we'll charge a few banknotes worth of stuff from either party as a transaction fee.

 

I think what I'd rather see is the ability to print our own banknotes. I might have $75 FSD and $25 CQD, each of which are valued differently.

[Phantasm (DayZ) 57]

If you and associates want to establish your own trading post, I'm sure you won't be the only ones, it's bound to happen in a post apocalyptic universe.  However, the largest portion of the market will be between player A and player B with no middlemen.  There will of course be a niche for middlemen to use as trusted parties, particularly when dealing with more valueable items.  It's really no different then the Eve Online market system, which I enjoy.  In the end, the entire market is shaped by the players.  (I think I recall Dean mentioning his admiration of that market system as well).

 

My only gripe, I guess, is any mention of, or suggestion to the DayZ team to implement an economy within the game.  Any attempt to put in any kind of marketing system in the game goes against a true post apocalyptic environment.

Edited January 12, 2014 by Phantasm

[DevilDog (DayZ) 455]

Or to put what I meant differently, FTC will likely use banknotes as our unit of currency. For example, a soda might be worth 1 banknote. If you want to buy a pair of pants that are worth 5 banknotes, we'll accept anything that totals 5 banknotes in value. If it's a trade between two other parties, we'll be there to offer our price for the items sort of as a price checker, and we'll charge a few banknotes worth of stuff from either party as a transaction fee.

 

I think what I'd rather see is the ability to print our own banknotes. I might have $75 FSD and $25 CQD, each of which are valued differently.

That would be great and you can post the BN values so we can see what they are before hand. Anything you don't want anymore simply gets a 0 valuation.

 

Printing your own notes (or coins) would be fantastic but don't think it will ever happen.

 

Ammo right now is too common but imagine if there were 15+ different calibers? Say you find that super rare SVD but only have 3 rounds left and can't find more. Well trade in 100 12 gauge slug rounds for 10 7.62x54mmR rounds. Or something similar. Would be great if FST could post up an ammo exchange rate with their BN values.

 

 

Anyone thinking trading won't happen is fooling themselves. I was an active trader in the mod and feel SA will have much more stuff. I like the idea of FST first for their RP value, but also because it is much easier to be able to just contact them rather than finding random people on the forum.

 

 

 

 

[Publik 404]

 

That would be great and you can post the BN values so we can see what they are before hand. Anything you don't want anymore simply gets a 0 valuation.

 

Printing your own notes (or coins) would be fantastic but don't think it will ever happen.

 

Ammo right now is too common but imagine if there were 15+ different calibers? Say you find that super rare SVD but only have 3 rounds left and can't find more. Well trade in 100 12 gauge slug rounds for 10 7.62x54mmR rounds. Or something similar. Would be great if FST could post up an ammo exchange rate with their BN values.

 

 

Anyone thinking trading won't happen is fooling themselves. I was an active trader in the mod and feel SA will have much more stuff. I like the idea of FST first for their RP value, but also because it is much easier to be able to just contact them rather than finding random people on the forum.

 

We'll have these values on our website somewhere once we get into the swing of things, but like I said that time is possibly a ways off. As for the ammo, you'd still need some common value to value them against. Or, at the very least we will, whether it's beans or banknotes :P

 

There will of course be a niche for middlemen to use as trusted parties, particularly when dealing with more valueable items.

And that's where we come in. Sure, we'll have stuff for sale, but our main goal is facilitating trade between other parties.

Edited January 12, 2014 by Publik

[Phantasm (DayZ) 57]

Oh I know exactly what you mean, and yes there will always be demand for trust in a game where trust itself is a valueable commodity, we see this especially in Eve online.  Like I said, my biggest concern is quelling any kind of suggestion that the dev team implement some type of ingame economy, and I'm sure Dean will wholeheartedly agree, the only type of economy that works in a post apocalyptic world is the one that is developed by the post apocalytic citizens.

[DevilDog (DayZ) 455]

Yeah the whole trading aspect is a ways off really. So sense trading if you can't store anything at all.

 

As for the ammo you would not need a common value, it could be more like an exchange rate.

 

.357 (1) = .45 (10), 5.56 (5), 7.62 (2)

 

Either way, don't matter you get the idea. You could get the same result equating them to BNs too.

 

.357 = 10 BNs

.45 = 1 BN

5.56 = 2 BNs

7.62 = 5 BNs

[Phantasm (DayZ) 57]

Trying to set any approxmiate value on anything right now is pointless.  All it takes is moving a decimal value over in the programming to make something ultra common or ultra rare.  So until the game is much more developed and we see more of a totally fleshed out loot table and what other things we can do in game, it's pure speculation but there's nothing wrong with being as prepared as possible for the future.

 

Fwiw, I'm quite certain Dean has stated that ammunition will likely be more rare in the future.  All it takes is moving 1 decimal value and things can seriously change in a game.

Edited January 12, 2014 by Phantasm

[DevilDog (DayZ) 455]

Trying to set any approxmiate value on anything right now is pointless.  All it takes is moving a decimal value over in the programming to make something ultra common or ultra rare.  So until the game is much more developed and we see more of a totally fleshed out loot table and what other things we can do in game, it's pure speculation but there's nothing wrong with being as prepared as possible for the future.

 

Fwiw, I'm quite certain Dean has stated that ammunition will likely be more rare in the future.  All it takes is moving 1 decimal value and things can seriously change in a game.

Who is trying to set value right now? We are just talking about the future of trading.

[flyingpurplehippo 17]

I don't think trading posts will be made, I'm pretty sure the Devs want to avoid any AI that aren't zombies or animals.

 

If currency was implemented instead of trading on a need basis it could add more depth to trading.

I'm kinda imagining the Epoch trading system with different values of metal currency, but if you strip away the trading posts and shrink the currency down to 2-3 units I think it could work. Tin, copper, gold even.

Value of items would be based off players wants obviously though, some people might charge a brick of gold for a bottle of water, others bottlecaps.

Smart traders charge high when they know the needs of their customers, for example selling water in a town that's far from any pump.

 

Although I doubt any of that would ever happen if ammo was not super scarce.

Why risk a fight when you can simply pop them in the head and take what you need without further hassle.

If you only have a handful of bullets, do you want to use them on someone who isn't an immediate threat.

Or try and interact with and maybe walk away a little poorer but much happier?

[Phantasm (DayZ) 57]

Who is trying to set value right now? We are just talking about the future of trading.

 

You kind of were in the previous post, don't take offense to my statement, I'm simply stating that, for all we know, ammo could be 10x rarer then what it is now.  That's kind of the whole issue at hand, without knowing true rarity values, it's just that much more difficult and speculating doesn't lead to any concrete results.

[Phantasm (DayZ) 57]

I don't think trading posts will be made, I'm pretty sure the Devs want to avoid any AI that aren't zombies or animals.

 

If currency was implemented instead of trading on a need basis it could add more depth to trading.

I'm kinda imagining the Epoch trading system with different values of metal currency, but if you strip away the trading posts and shrink the currency down to 2-3 units I think it could work. Tin, copper, gold even.

Value of items would be based off players wants obviously though, some people might charge a brick of gold for a bottle of water, others bottlecaps.

Smart traders charge high when they know the needs of their customers, for example selling water in a town that's far from any pump.

 

Although I doubt any of that would ever happen if ammo was not super scarce.

Why risk a fight when you can simply pop them in the head and take what you need without further hassle.

If you only have a handful of bullets, do you want to use them on someone who isn't an immediate threat.

Or try and interact with and maybe walk away a little poorer but much happier?

 

I'm beyond certain there will be no AI trading posts or currency.

Edited January 12, 2014 by Phantasm

[capt. beefsteak 95]

Hey, Groups with market's, having to guard farmland, creating strong holds, barracades...

 

Money could be used to speed up the process to do certain things.. Other groups could try to bring down the economic structure of another, however for things like that, we might need a larger map.. I know there is alot of open area, but still.. you'd have people knocking on your door with bad intentions like every 20mins or so.. Also at that point you'd almost have to restrict the number of players per group, because if 80% flock to one side of the fence, you'd have a monopoly...

 

I would like to see a blindfold option, this way you could take people places and they wouldn't really know where they were taken.. Somewhere like let's say, your marketplace, or w/e..

[Phantasm (DayZ) 57]

Money in general is backed by governments, in a post apocalyptic society, there is no government.  Markets will revert back to simple barter and trading systems, with items having inherent values depending on rarity and their need to those who want it.

[Roshi (DayZ) 397]

My only gripe, I guess, is any mention of, or suggestion to the DayZ team to implement an economy within the game.  Any attempt to put in any kind of marketing system in the game goes against a true post apocalyptic environment.

 

Regarding this topic - in the OP I pushed for an emergent economy - not one set up artificially by the devs. The point is to produce a game environment conducive to these types of player interactions - not just (but not excluding) PvP. So suggestions how more spontaneous transactions could be encouraged would be appreciated.

 

As to money - they have a skin for it apparently. I have know idea how that might work, but if they do use it they should just spawn it in and see what happens. 

[Roshi (DayZ) 397]

Regarding my mention of scrap metal in the OP - to me that would be a fitting substitute for gold, tin etc. Good quality scrap could be used to weld onto your vehicle as armour for example (which Rocket has alluded to in the past as a possible feature) or making tools, or hand pressing relatively low quality bullters, which might give it value as a raw material.

 

Does anyone have any thoughts on adding a 'trade' hand signal (I previously suggested the 'T' for 'timeout')? 

[blurhitz 244]

This ruins any kind of realism in the game. I'm against money or pay-to-win bulls*it.

 

Go home, you're drunk

 

 

OP, a trade system is expected to come in any kind of civilization made by human beings (that is a study), so I think your idea is 100% valid. I think that a trade system implemented by the players would be nice, although I'm 100% sure only 1 in every 10 trades would be safe, but that's part of the nature...

Edited January 12, 2014 by xBlurHitz

[BL1P 252]

Until Private hives or a system to stop server hopping into loot spots or other players bases comes into effect.

This idea would not work.

but once they do fix that problem or we are playing on private or grouped hives then yes sounds good.

 

Would be cool to see more hives not just the Hardcore and Casual hives.

Maybe some regional hives in places.

Maybe some of the DayZ profit could be placed into regional hives.

With a single global trade hive that you can join with your regional loot to do trades on.

[Lady Kyrah 1110]

i don't think the devs need to create an actual currency, let the players choose.