Issues with firearms in Dayz SA (real world shooters perspective)

[daltar08 11]

Let me begin by saying i love the Dayz mod, playing it from the beginning of its public existence, when standalone was released I was immediately ecstatic by the prospect of a refined version to the ARMA 2 Mod. So before flaming me, just hear me out. After several hours I finally found a rifle, an M4 in pristine condition, I aimed up my standard A2 style iron sights and took a shot at a wall 50m away...my jaw dropped. I could not believe it, not only was the shot not on point, but my point of impact was maybe 6 feet off target. Figuring that i had simply slipped out of excitement of the game release i proceeded to take 5 more shots from standing, crouching, and prone position. The lack or realistic ballistic data that we were given with Arma 2's extensively collected research was nowhere to be found in the game, and continues to be lacking. at 50 M an M4 should be hitting near Sub MOA (minute of angle) accuracy (basically on point) a worn rifle should be grouping a bit outside of one inch, I say Rocket needs to implement the original weapon attributes from the mod/arma2. Also that dot that shows where you are going to hit is simply additional salt in the wound. Now that veteran shooters who are actually trained to operate weapons cannot even use the sights while a 10 year old can line up the dot and headshot you is unnaceptable. I hope this is fixed later, here is a list I composed of things that are currently wrong with the firearms and need to be changed.

 

Things that are wrong

 

*Aiming properly somehow results in poor accuracy

*Scopes that have ballistic drop reticles need to be accurately portrayed (ACOG)

*The "Long Range Scope" in the game utilizes a picatinny mount and therefore would fit on the M4 and NOT the Mosin

* "7.62" is an improper designation for mosin ammo, the proper designation would be 7.62 x 54R

*The Previously mentioned acog should be illuminated at the chevron, the actual scope glows for about 10 years

 

Things I would implement

 

*Rather than have a worn sight on the gun cause random accuracy, maybe have it hit constantly but off, for instance 6 inches high and 2 inches to the left at 20 meters, this consistent inaccuracy itself could be randomly generated. this would simulate improperly adjusted iron sights.

*a pristine rifle should result in Arma 2-esque accuracy

*get rid of that darn aiming dot with the exception of melee weapons, its just an unfair advantage for a game that was adapted from a mil-sim

*As previously mentioned, switch the long range scope to the M4 so it can be used as a designated marksman rifle

*way down the road possibly allow the players to adjust the windage and elevation on their sights.

 

Don't get me wrong the game is much prettier and fluid of an experience from the mod. It's just that these issues I listed are a very large annoyance, and kind of put me off from the game a bit. correcting them would further enhance the gaming experience.

Edited January 8, 2014 by daltar08

[stielhandgranate 480]

"*The "Long Range Scope" in the game utilizes a picatinny mount and therefore would fit on the M4 and NOT the Mosin"

 

I always figured that it was mounted with one of those crappy TAPCO abominations. I do agree with your post very much so. It really erks me that the M68 isn't zero'd for 300 meters and the ACOG has the wrong reticle. I thought Dean Hall, as a veteran would get stuff like that right.

[Space Milk 195]

*Aiming properly results in poor accuracy.

 

I am a shooter too.  Try shooting at 500 meters with a CARBINE, using a small .223 round.

 

Mosin has perfect accuracy.

[stielhandgranate 480]

*Aiming properly results in poor accuracy.

 

I am a shooter too.  Try shooting at 500 meters with a CARBINE, using a small .223 round.

 

Mosin has perfect accuracy.

 

 

 

 

The M4A1 uses M855, a steel core round that is acurate up to 500 meters for a point target. The US Army and Air Force basic rifle marksmenship quals requre shooters to fire at distances up to 300 meters with a Aimpoint Comp M4 (M68). Its not that hard to engage at 300 meters with a carbine length barrel.

Edited January 8, 2014 by Dale Gribble

[AP_Norris 1017]

I was thinking about your consistency talking about the damaged scope, I was thinking it would be more that the mounts are damaged.

If the bullet still hit the same point where the scope was aiming every time, then you could just re zero it.

But if the mounts were damaged the scope may move with a single shot instead of over a day of shooting it and roughing it up.

I do think that guns should overall be more accurate and hip firing at long ranges shouldn't be possible.

I wouldn't mind a dot showing the flight path of the bullet up to a metre to give a realistic sense of where you and everything around you is, the crosshairs in Arma 3 do this perfectly (I know if my gun is pointed over the rock/ or is clipping the rock in a funny manner).

What do people think about crosshairs Arma 3 style?

[BelMarduk 169]

The 'long range scope' looks more like a 'weaver mount' style not picatinny to me.

I will take the side of the mechanics as it is now till the cow comes home. Not necessarily exactly how it is now, tweaking I am sure could help. I have commented before. If you're an 'experienced' shooter, then you have been around many novice shooters. A couple things that you can rest assured about a novice shooter, they are going to have at least one bad habit, like pulling their wrist, or dropping the muzzle. I honestly think the current 'scheme'  portrays that. Remember, better attachments better the weapons accuracy (depending on the attachment). There is NO 'levels' in the game, your gear is your 'level'... 

[stielhandgranate 480]

There is NO 'levels' in the game, your gear is your 'level'... 

 

Thats a bad model to go by, you can give a M24 with a Leupold mk4 and 118LR to a person with no experience with firearms but that won't mean he'll make the best of that equipment.

[Space Milk 195]

The M4A1 uses M855, a steel core round that is acurate up to 500 meters for a point target. The US Army and Air Force basic rifle marksmenship quals requre shooters to fire at distances up to 300 meters with a Aimpoint Comp M4 (M68). Its not that hard to engage at 300 meters with a carbine length barrel.

 

 

500 is almost tiwice the distance as 300 meters.  You said accurate, but exactly HOW accurate? Pull some photos of targets at 500 meters for 5.56 at carbine length.

Not to mention, that those rounds have been just sitting there for years, and so has the gun.  Both will not be in perfect condition.

[millor 7]

Be careful on using SA to mean stand alone, because there's a dayZ mod for San Andreas as well (I know, it's gross) might lead to some confusion.

I agree with everything though, especially the aiming dot, though I suppose if it's anything like the mod there will hopefully be a hardcore mode that turns stuff like that off at the very least. I would definately like to see being able to adjust the windage on sights, even if there was no actual wind affecting the bullets, but just for the maintenance of the gun. I think it would be really neat if scopes had to be actually shot and zeroed in manually every once in a while to make sure you were shooting straight, or at least once you first got it. There was some cabellas hunting game I played on the PS2 a long time ago and I remembered that every time you got a new gun, you had to take it to the range and manually adjust the windage and elevation until your shots actually landed on the crosshair. Then, as you went out hunting and were moving around with it, maybe bumping the scope or something, after a while, it would get slightly out of calibration and you would need to readjust it again. I think that would be another feature in the game that really adds to the realism, and maintenance you have to keep on yourself and your equipment that rocket seems to try and be going for.

[daltar08 11]

The M4A1 uses M855, a steel core round that is acurate up to 500 meters for a point target. The US Army and Air Force basic rifle marksmenship quals requre shooters to fire at distances up to 300 meters with a Aimpoint Comp M4 (M68). Its not that hard to engage at 300 meters with a carbine length barrel.

 

^^this, well more so the 300 meter part, hitting a silhouette at 300 is not that hard as you said, which was why i had a huge problem with the accuracy at just even 50m in game.

 

Thats a bad model to go by, you can give a M24 with a Leupold mk4 and 118LR to a person with no experience with firearms but that won't mean he'll make the best of that equipment.

 

I have seen a 9 year old hit a 4 inch gong at 400 m with a Rem 700 PSS and a Leupold Mk4, with the exception of the ACOG, the scopes are fine in game as far as accuracy goes. thats why my idea of allowing the player to zero their sights manually would come into play, a novice would not be able to exploit the auto-aligned sights of Arma2 without the prior knowledge of zeroing.

 

The 'long range scope' looks more like a 'weaver mount' style not picatinny to me.

I will take the side of the mechanics as it is now till the cow comes home. Not necessarily exactly how it is now, tweaking I am sure could help. I have commented before. If you're an 'experienced' shooter, then you have been around many novice shooters. A couple things that you can rest assured about a novice shooter, they are going to have at least one bad habit, like pulling their wrist, or dropping the muzzle. I honestly think the current 'scheme'  portrays that. Remember, better attachments better the weapons accuracy (depending on the attachment). There is NO 'levels' in the game, your gear is your 'level'... 

 

something that fits weaver will fit picatinny lol so regardless its a correct assertion that the long range scope will fit on the m4's flat top and not the mosin.

[daltar08 11]

500 is almost tiwice the distance as 300 meters.  You said accurate, but exactly HOW accurate? Pull some photos of targets at 500 meters for 5.56 at carbine length.

Not to mention, that those rounds have been just sitting there for years, and so has the gun.  Both will not be in perfect condition.

 

national match rifle competition 300 and 600 meters with iron sights lol

[stielhandgranate 480]

500 is almost tiwice the distance as 300 meters.  You said accurate, but exactly HOW accurate? Pull some photos of targets at 500 meters for 5.56 at carbine length.

Not to mention, that those rounds have been just sitting there for years, and so has the gun.  Both will not be in perfect condition.

 

I fired weapons sitting in long term storage such as M2s,M4s and M16A2s and they never had any defects. The military also had to spend WW2 surplus .50 cal during OEF/OIF with no degradation. What ruins a firearm's accuracy are issues that come with continuous use, like barrel erosion and barrel straightness. Simply leaving a gun on the floors of a barracks or a apartment building for a long time won't ruin it's function. Also in the game's current state, the M4 cannot fire out to 300 meters, this is wrong.

[Space Milk 195]

^^this, well more so the 300 meter part, hitting a silhouette at 300 is not that hard as you said, which was why i had a huge problem with the accuracy at just even 50m in game.

 

 

I have seen a 9 year old hit a 4 inch gong at 400 m with a Rem 700 PSS and a Leupold Mk4, with the exception of the ACOG, the scopes are fine in game as far as accuracy goes. thats why my idea of allowing the player to zero their sights manually would come into play, a novice would not be able to exploit the auto-aligned sights of Arma2 without the prior knowledge of zeroing.

 

 

something that fits weaver will fit picatinny lol so regardless its a correct assertion that the long range scope will fit on the m4's flat top and not the mosin.

 

rem 700 PSS uses 7.62 round, far more powerful and accurate over ranges that what the carbine uses.

[Space Milk 195]

I fired weapons sitting in long term storage such as M2s,M4s and M16A2s and they never had any defects. The military also had to spend WW2 surplus .50 cal during OEF/OIF with no degradation. What ruins a firearm's accuracy are issues that come with continuous use, like barrel erosion and barrel straightness. Simply leaving a gun on the floors of a barracks or a apartment building for a long time won't ruin it's function. Also in the game's current state, the M4 cannot fire out to 300 meters, this is wrong.

 

They were probably left there because they were killed or ran away while trying to defend their position?  They were probably defending fora long time.

 

300 meters for on M4 ingame is easy, up to 400-500 is hard.

Edited January 8, 2014 by Space Milk

[daltar08 11]

I fired weapons sitting in long term storage such as M2s,M4s and M16A2s and they never had any defects. The military also had to spend WW2 surplus .50 cal during OEF/OIF with no degradation. What ruins a firearm's accuracy are issues that come with continuous use, like barrel erosion and barrel straightness. Simply leaving a gun on the floors of a barracks or a apartment building for a long time won't ruin it's function. Also in the game's current state, the M4 cannot fire out to 300 meters, this is wrong.

 

the only gun that may have issue in the game with accuracy would be the mosin's due to the rediculous amounts of corrosive 54R ammo that i imagine dwells in cherno lol. but seriously though they need to fix this.

[daltar08 11]

rem 700 PSS uses 7.62 round, far more powerful and accurate over ranges that what the carbine uses.

 

 

 

The PSS can be purchased in 7.62x51, .338 lapua, as well as .300 win mag, the qoute was referring to a post talking about the m24 (also 7.62x51)

[stielhandgranate 480]

They were probably left there because they were killed or ran away while trying to defend their position?  They were probably defending fora long time.

 

300 meters for on M4 ingame is easy, up to 400-500 is hard.

 

Unless they were mag dumping on full auto untill their hanguards melted, or they were defending an area for over a year with no relief, the orginal owners wouldn't have had them long enough to to destroy the chamber or barrel of the weapon. I think you underestimate how much abuse M4s take before needing parts replacement.

[Space Milk 195]

Unless they were mag dumping on full auto untill their hanguards melted, or they were defending an area for over a year with no relief, the orginal owners wouldn't have had them long enough to to destroy the chamber or barrel of the weapon. I think you underestimate how much abuse M4s take before needing parts replacement.

 The game is YEARS in the future.  Even after those men used it, who is to say months or a year later someone else uses it, then another, and another...

I;m not saying 3 years, I'm saying 13.

[stielhandgranate 480]

 The game is YEARS in the future.  Even after those men used it, who is to say months or a year later someone else uses it, then another, and another...

I;m not saying 3 years, I'm saying 13.

 

I doubt this game takes place 13 years in the future. If that were the case, vegetation would be overruning the buildings and roads in the game, and I doubt the zombies wouldn't have withered away or staved to death unless they are being held together with magic.

[Space Milk 195]

I doubt this game takes place 13 years in the future. If that were the case, vegetation would be overruning the buildings and roads in the game, and I doubt the zombies wouldn't have withered away or staved to death unless they are being held together with magic.

 

well maybe the virus keeps the body from decomposing or slows it.  it isnt real after all zombies impossible 1 hand typing sorry

[warrenpeace 38]

I'd wager a lot of this stuff is all due to place-holding stats due to the fact that it's still in alpha. Both the ACOG and PU scope, for example, have a zoom level of 1.39x instead of their standard designations.

[o_grande_rafael 24]

i'd say they already shoot too well. take a look at http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/162523-shooting-precision-and-accuracy/

the avatar is not a GI-JOE gun ho. he is a untrained noobie.

Edited January 8, 2014 by Rafael -BR- Friendly

[stielhandgranate 480]

i'd say they already shoot too well. take a look at http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/162523-shooting-precision-and-accuracy/

the avatar is not a GI-JOE gun ho. he is a untrained noobie.

 

If you look at the chart in your own thread, you could see you are wrong.

[Kresdja 0]

The Mosin ammo thing annoys me too.  All of the other guns have correct ammo, was this a typo or what?

 

A LRS on a mosin isn't completely unrealistic.  If you bubba one enough, you can mount one on it.  I'm sure if you google it, you'd find one.  People do it to use them for hunting and the russian PU scope is garbage.

 

Mosins aren't very accurate IRL.....I'd be impressed if you could hit a person past 300 yards with one.

 

An M4 barrel is good for thousands of rounds, tens of thousands.  Unless they're used in war, the chances of the barrel being worn enough to affect accuracy is very slim.  Take mosin nagants for example.  I'm fairly sure they aren't made anymore, haven't been made since the 50s maybe.  They're no precision rifles, but they'll get the job done within a couple hundred yards.  And that's a 50+ year old gun.

 

ETA:  I haven't seen an ACOG in this game, so I don't know what reticle is in it.  I do know that ACOG's come in a variety of different reticles and such.  You can get them without the tritium, I believe.  I know you can get something other than the red chevron that's so popular in FPS games nowadays as well.

Edited February 14, 2014 by Kresdja

[Daemonkid 493]

Your M4 needs magpul gear to be accurate. It's odd yes, but with MPstock and barrel cover with an ACOG the M4 shoots out to 500 meters accurately.

 

It doesn't make realistic sense, but that's how it is in game right now.