Fix (not remove) Third Person Perspective

[Zombie Jesus 723]

The video in the first post sums it up perfectly. 

 

There are simply no arguments for third person that stand up to that analysis. 

 

You also can't allow the option. Dayz is tough, it's supposed to be tough, if you enforce 1st person some people will whine about it , but they will still play it, and they will come to love it after a transitional period. If you took a game everyone loved and suddenly added perma death, people would freak out, but because that feature has been in Dayz from the start with no option there is no discussion about it. The very harshness of it is what attracted everyone.

 

Dayz is about fear, stress and immersion. 1st person amplifies these things and simply makes the game better.

 

Other arguments:

 

You can't see your character  - now you can in the character screen. Sorted.

It makes me sick - turn off head bob, becomes exactly the same.

Increased FOV - the OP video shows that there is no FOV increase. 

 

Lol it is easy to win an argument when you only pick the arguments you wish to address. 

 

For the one millionth time 3PP gives spatial awareness that is severely lacking in DayZ and Arma in general. I do not walk into objects all the time in my day to day life, but in first person navigating a hallway can be a pain. 

The sound is not that great for echo location although that is a separate issue but it does come into play when discussing realism in 1PP. 

The other large argument is this game is not strictly a shooter. The vast majority of time spent playing DayZ is spent running in the woods and looting in desolation and both of those activities are often more enjoyable visually in 3PP. Enjoyment is part of gaming so it is a valid argument to bring up even if some want to label it casual Cod nonsense or whatever other arguments being thrown around. I will admit to the sin of playing games for enjoyment, sorry to ruin your hardcore brutal experience with joy. 

 

I am actually very interested in fixes to 3PP that remove certain exploits, but the people who want to turn it into a 1PP game only are fighting a losing battle. As Rocket himself has pointed out 3PP is far more popular, a quick look at the server list will show you the same result. You know why developers never cite forum polls, because forum polls are garbage. 

 

If you guys keep posting nonsense about how hardcore it is you will see 100 more posts telling you to go play on the 1PP servers with the last statement being problem solved (which is somewhat valid but it has been discussed to death so not worth the circular posts). 

[tommes 331]

I really don't get why you don't just play counterstrike or battlefield.

Even though, one of my most intense fights was as we played in Battlefield Bad Company 2 against 2.

I'm slowly getting annoyed from the fact that some just always seems to know how a game has to be played and how not. <_<

Counterstrike has gotten old. I don't care for it anymore. I've never cared much for BF. Especially not the newer ones. Too much bullshit. CoD as well. There simply was no game that I was interested in until DayZ came up...and it had none of the bullshit of the AAA titles...loads of other BS sadly...but it still offered a unique experience and extraordinary intensity of firefights.

 

You don't figure out by yourself how a multiplayer game is to be played. Sadly some people always will do everything in their power to piss on the experience of others. If there's a way to exploit something, there will be some exploiting it. If there are succesful but lame tactics, some or many will use them. They only care about their own experience. Their own success. They do not care how this will affect all the others. They are not interested in a fair fight but only in winning.

As someone providing virtual playgrounds you have to fight this trend vigorously or your game will be a noobish slugfest with no signs of intelligence in gameplay. 

[Ken Bean 174]

Basically you missed the point of the entire thread... it's talking about fixing the look over the walls exploit...which you want, yet you're arguing against it...

 

/facepalm

 

It's still the same thread, just with another loop.

Intention is the same. If you cant't ban orange juce, try to make orange taste like strawberry.

Edited January 16, 2014 by Ken Bean

[doctorbadsign 645]

We had that one already back in the massacre of a thread in September.

• A lot of people play and buy first person only titles.
• A lot of the DayZ players would deal with 3PP being removed after the initial outcry and just do fine without it.
• Developers would be forced to improve the 1PP only experience.
• 1PP in Arma2 or DayZ is not as bad as the 3PP camp wants it to be for the sake of their cause.

But yeah...the kid has already fallen into the well here. People have become so used to 3PP if taken away they would experience a cold turkey. Rocket is aware of that. As it seems he's trying to figure out a way to make more people go a "more hardcore" (his terms) route. We will see. I haven't bought into SA yet anyway. I rather play Farm Heroes Saga for the time beeing.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not one of those who thought that 1PP made me sick in DayZ or Arma 2 and people using the argument that it has made some people sick to further their opinion is a bit silly cause it is essentially a matter of opinion (unless of course they were one of those people [if they exist]) and in my opinion I just don't like the way 1PP feels and looks and wouldn't want to be forced to play it like that.

 

I still don't think it would make good business sense to remove 3PP given the points you raise. And as you say it seems that Rocket knows this and is attempting to approach things via a different route---which basically proves my point.

[floj 393]

Completely agree with you there Zombie Jesus.

 

3PP and 1PP both need sound design fixes, but it's more affecting for 1PP because you don't have omnivision to make up for it.

 

I think 1PP is a little clunky but  it's no more clunky than 3PP. At the moment you have to walk through doors perfectly straight in both modes else you can't enter rooms. This prevents being able to lean in through doorways for better combat for either perspective. Could be fixed by simply as reducing the clipping of the player models. The difference is that you have to learn where your body ends in 1PP, in 3PP you can see it on screen.

 

Mouse acceleration isn't by itself evil, but needs to be configurable and an option - this affects both 1PP and 3PP, but has more affect on 1PP since unpracticed mouse movement (or even a crappy mouse+mousepad or framerate) can disorientate you and makes it harder to get your bearings afterwards.

 

Basically at the moment, 1PP is more hardcore BUT I think 3PP players should be asking for this change as much as we are. It's them that will miss out on the final experience of shitting themselves when they inadvertently turn a corner into a street full of zombies.

Edited January 16, 2014 by phlOgistOn

[tommes 331]

The other large argument is this game is not strictly a shooter. The vast majority of time spent playing DayZ is spent running in the woods and looting in desolation and both of those activities are often more enjoyable visually in 3PP. Enjoyment is part of gaming so it is a valid argument to bring up even if some want to label it casual Cod nonsense or whatever other arguments being thrown around. I will admit to the sin of playing games for enjoyment, sorry to ruin your hardcore brutal experience with joy. 

It was once an argument for DayZ to be unforgiving, brutal, survival, zombie, apocalypse...

DayZ was never advertised as beeing joyful or enjoyable and it would be out of logic having this superhard unforgiving survial horror game and then making it nice and fluffy...maybe even family friendly...

[tommes 331]

It's still the same thread, just with another loop.

That's because of you. And your other account. And the other guys not beeing able to contribute to the topic.

[svisketyggeren 662]

Lol it is easy to win an argument when you only pick the arguments you wish to address. 

Enjoyment is part of gaming so it is a valid argument to bring up even if some want to label it casual Cod nonsense or whatever other arguments being thrown around.

 

If ur enjoyment argument is a vaild argument then a casual COD argument is just as vaild....they are the same type of argument, ur own subjective opinion that everyone is entitled to have. If u ask me, none of them are vaild as arguments in this discussion. A vaild argument, as an example, would be seeing over walls with third person or the clunky 1st person.

Edited January 16, 2014 by svisketyggeren

[Ken Bean 174]

 

 

It was once an argument for DayZ to be unforgiving, brutal, survival, zombie, apocalypse...

DayZ was never advertised as beeing joyful or enjoyable and it would be out of logic having this superhard unforgiving survial horror game and then making it nice and fluffy...maybe even family friendly...

I think you are mistaking something. Games are meant to be played for enjoyment - or it's not a game.

To understand this, one has to know what a game and enjoyment defines. Repetetive actions against your enjoyment are not exactly a game. (And if you are sm, the enjoyment may come from pain, but it's still enjoyment.)

 

Counterstrike has gotten old. I don't care for it anymore. I've never cared much for BF. Especially not the newer ones. Too much bullshit. CoD as well. There simply was no game that I was interested in until DayZ came up...and it had none of the bullshit of the AAA titles...loads of other BS sadly...but it still offered a unique experience and extraordinary intensity of firefights.

You don't figure out by yourself how a multiplayer game is to be played. Sadly some people always will do everything in their power to piss on the experience of others. If there's a way to exploit something, there will be some exploiting it. If there are succesful but lame tactics, some or many will use them. They only care about their own experience. Their own success. They do not care how this will affect all the others. They are not interested in a fair fight but only in winning.

As someone providing virtual playgrounds you have to fight this trend vigorously or your game will be a noobish slugfest with no signs of intelligence in gameplay.

At least I appreciate your straight answer on that.

 

That's because of you. And your other account. And the other guys not beeing able to contribute to the topic.

You are denying the core problem:

->You play on the wrong server

->Map is too big for pvp focused folks

->Smaller maps like in battlefield or counter strike give a more intense pvp experience, this has nothing to do with 1st person or 3rd person

->Who is easier to be changed? You or millions of other player?

Oh, and I don't have another account. Cheap try. :rolleyes:

Edited January 16, 2014 by Ken Bean

[floj 393]

 I think you are mistaking something. Games are meant to be played for enjoyment - or it's not a game.

To understand this, one has to know what a game and enjoyment defines. Repetetive actions against your enjoyment are not exactly a game. (And if you are sm, the enjoyment may come from pain, but it's still enjoyment.)

You are denying the core problem:

->You play on the wrong server

->Map is too big for pvp focused folks

->Smaller maps like in battlefield or counter strike give a more intense pvp experience, this has nothing to do with 1st person or 3rd person

->Who is easier to be changed? You or millions of other player?

I wouldn't say I've always enjoyed every moment of gaming... being too scared to continue whilst playing Amnesia recently or Thief/Doom when I was younger and having to wait til the next day to play it during daylight! Listening to friends lose hours of investment as they got ganked defending our wormhole or being backstabbed and betrayed by an alliance CEO in Eve... not enjoyable but damn they made good 'experiences!'

 

Pretty much the same with any MMO's isn't it? Isnt that the joy of having player interaction and content creation? Are people enjoying getting robbed by bandits?

 

I'm not even gonna get involved with you talking about PvP again - it's just one facet of DayZ...although, those intense PvP experiences you talk about in CS...pretty sure a lot of that is caused by not knowing where your opponents are before entering an area (and them not being able to see where you're coming from either).

[Ken Bean 174]

I wouldn't say I've always enjoyed every moment of gaming... being too scared to continue whilst playing Amnesia recently or Thief/Doom when I was younger and having to wait til the next day to play it during daylight! Listening to friends lose hours of investment as they got ganked defending our wormhole or being backstabbed and betrayed by an alliance CEO in Eve... not enjoyable but damn they made good 'experiences!'

 

Pretty much the same with any MMO's isn't it? Isnt that the joy of having player interaction and content creation? Are people enjoying getting robbed by bandits?

 

I'm not even gonna get involved with you talking about PvP again - it's just one facet of DayZ...although, those intense PvP experiences you talk about in CS...pretty sure a lot of that is caused by not knowing where your opponents are before entering an area (and them not being able to see where you're coming from either).

Yeah, we also enjoy horror games or films. It's entertaining. No reason to rant against enjoyment. And tommes said something like "enjoyment is for the weak" between the lines. Well yeah, he clearly is mistaking something. (not the thirst time btw)

Edited January 16, 2014 by Ken Bean

[Zombie Jesus 723]

Mouse acceleration isn't by itself evil, but needs to be configurable and an option - this affects both 1PP and 3PP, but has more affect on 1PP since unpracticed mouse movement (or even a crappy mouse+mousepad or framerate) can disorientate you and makes it harder to get your bearings afterwards.

 

Basically at the moment, 1PP is more hardcore BUT I think 3PP players should be asking for this change as much as we are. It's them that will miss out on the final experience of shitting themselves when they inadvertently turn a corner into a street full of zombies.

 

The thing that really made 1PP more enjoyable for myself was a better computer. Many of the issues I had with first person was the frame rate issues are much more off putting in 1PP and I suspect many others have the same issue considering the optimization issues of all BI games. I do hate mouse acceleration though and look forward to being able to configure that properly. I always disliked the exploitable aspects of 3PP but lived with them since a smoother gameplay experience was more important personally, but I do agree more people who enjoy 3PP should want the big exploits addressed. 

 

 

It was once an argument for DayZ to be unforgiving, brutal, survival, zombie, apocalypse...

DayZ was never advertised as beeing joyful or enjoyable and it would be out of logic having this superhard unforgiving survial horror game and then making it nice and fluffy...maybe even family friendly...

 

I guess I am not allowed to enjoy a brutal and unforgiving zombie apocalypse. So when you fire up DayZ you have this overwhelming feeling of dread that you now have to play a game, that does not sound like the experience the developer was aiming for. 

[floj 393]

 

The thing that really made 1PP more enjoyable for myself was a better computer. Many of the issues I had with first person was the frame rate issues are much more off putting in 1PP and I suspect many others have the same issue considering the optimization issues of all BI games. I do hate mouse acceleration though and look forward to being able to configure that properly. I always disliked the exploitable aspects of 3PP but lived with them since a smoother gameplay experience was more important personally, but I do agree more people who enjoy 3PP should want the big exploits addressed.

This is something I don't understand about the engine...originally FPS were invented by id because it meant they wouldn't have to use up memory on the player character - it led to *better* framerates because they didn't have to render this foreground object and that was with simple sprite based models. Rendering a high-poly 3D model in the foreground should surely slow the FPS, not increase it :huh:

[Zombie Jesus 723]

If ur enjoyment argument is a vaild argument then a casual COD argument is just as vaild....they are the same type of argument, ur own subjective opinion that everyone is entitled to have. If u ask me, none of them are vaild as arguments in this discussion. A vaild argument, as an example, would be seeing over walls with third person or the clunky 1st person.

 Fine, I posted two other valid (by your opinion lol) arguments as well. In fact I even discussed the exploits you mentioned so I think your post is misdirected to say the least. I could even go farther with "valid" arguments like the fact that many people have trouble running BI games at decent frame rates and frame rate issues look horrible in 1PP compared to 3PP (I will internet slap the first person who says upgrade, it is expensive to upgrade every two years and while I have the means to do so looking down on those who do not is elitist).

 

But enjoyment in gaming is always a valid argument. You guys can call this an anti game or hardcore survival but the reason people are drawn to that experience is to enjoy that experience. Some parts of the game are admittedly not that enjoyable (I have never loved a 20 minute run to some of the areas of the map) but that adds to the atmosphere of having to navigate without a map and the fact that even in a field all the way up north you can still be killed by someone who notices you. It creates the atmosphere that many people are drawn to. The developer is always going to balance atmosphere and entertainment, there is a point where the developer could go too far and just create a game most people get no enjoyment out of playing. 

[Ken Bean 174]

This is something I don't understand about the engine...originally FPS were invented by id because it meant they wouldn't have to use up memory on the player character - it led to *better* framerates because they didn't have to render this foreground object and that was with simple sprite based models. Rendering a high-poly 3D model in the foreground should surely slow the FPS, not increase it :huh:

Does it improve your framerates if you switch from 3rd person to 1st? Not much, I guess. On modern graphic carts one reasonable optimized model more or less doesn't impact that much. Also, unlike games like Skyrim or the modern Fallout games, the 1st person view has a body model in DayZ as well. But Zombie Jesus is right, I also have the impression, you are slightly distracting the discussion, by picking certain side points like enjoyment or whatever. We made other way more relevant points, which ... get ignored.

Edited January 16, 2014 by Ken Bean

[floj 393]

Trying to call me out on distracting the discussion? I haven't seen a single relevant point from you which wasn't covered in pages 1-5. All you've done is reiterate the same things over and over without listening to a single deconstruction of your points we've put across. Basically you haven't got a leg left to stand on in terms of arguments and have just tried to smear the whole thread by turning it into an elitist flame war.

 

I think almost 10 pages ago in spite of your argumentative manner, I managed to rubbish your points so badly that I showed you were in favour of fixing 3PP but you've still got your fingers in your ears and want to just carry one without applying any theoretical thinking to the matter. You haven't come up with anything new, just posted a load of crap.

 

http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/162565-fix-not-remove-third-person-perspective/page-13?p=1665394#entry1665394

 

"1st person view is not realistic. And even if it would be, I couldn't care less, since as said, I want to see my character doing survival stuff. The game looks beautiful in 3rd person and I can see my fancy pants ingame. 1st person can't compete with it in all it's fancy awesomeness."

 

Still possible with 4th wall or the other fixes we've suggested.

 

EDIT: Grammar

Edited January 16, 2014 by phlOgistOn

[Ken Bean 174]

Trying to call me out on distracting the discussion? I haven't seen a single relevant point from you which wasn't covered in pages 1-5. All you've done is reiterate the same things over and over without listening to a single deconstruction of your points we've put across. Basically you haven't got a leg left to stand on in terms of arguments and have just tried to smear the whole thread by turning it into an elitist flame war.

 

I think almost 10 pages ago in spite of your argumentative manner, I managed to rubbish your points so badly that I showed you were in favour of fixing 3PP but you've still got your fingers in your ears and want to just carry one without applying any theoretical thinking to the matter. You haven't come up with anything new, just posted a load of crap.

 

http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/162565-fix-not-remove-third-person-perspective/page-13?p=1665394#entry1665394

 

"1st person view is not realistic. And even if it would be, I couldn't care less, since as said, I want to see my character doing survival stuff. The game looks beautiful in 3rd person and I can see my fancy pants ingame. 1st person can't compete with it in all it's fancy awesomeness."

 

Still possible with 4th wall or the other fixes we've suggested.

 

EDIT: Grammar

Well the reason why I didn't went into your pointless arguments like "Get a friend to do survival stuff with you, watch him?" is, that I already have friends I could watch. I can repeat it again, if you isnist in, but the point of the 3rd person view is to see your own character. I made that important part bold and underlined. The other points has been addressed a dozen times as well.

 

Should I repeat all or are you interested in certain points.

 

Your's have been disassembled various times and we got to the conclusion that it is just a matter of taste. The only relevant points remaining are:

 

1. matter of tastes (enjoyment)

2. that combat thing, what you 1st person advocates are most concerned about -> relevant for you, because of point 1.

3. that 1st person advocates somehow constantly join the wrong server, therefore not getting 1st person server full. And full server is what they want. (That's why they join the wrong server in the very first place.)

Edited January 16, 2014 by Ken Bean

[floj 393]

Matter of taste: You want to play 3PP, we're letting you.

Combat thing: Affects PvE as well as PvP. You can see zombies without putting yourself at risk as well as players. This is BAD pvp as posted about earlier in the thread (2 snipers hiding on opposing roofs waiting for the other to move).

Wrong servers: Can be fixed with a button.

 

Next. Im waiting for a reason why we shouldn't fix 3PP.

[Ken Bean 174]

Matter of taste: You want to play 3PP, we're letting you.

Oh, thank you, but no, you are trying to break it.

 

Combat thing: Affects PvE as well as PvP. You can see zombies without putting yourself at risk as well as players.

It's just realistic. It's called cover, not magic.

 

This is BAD pvp as posted about earlier in the thread (2 snipers hiding on opposing roofs waiting for the other to move).

Cover is not bad pvp, it's part of a more difficult pvp. Snipers hiding on the roof... who ever heard about that. :o Hope youu get the sarcasm.

 

Wrong servers: Can be fixed with a button.

There already are buttons, just hit the right one. It's a list, highlight 1st person server, press "join".

 

Next.

Yes of cause, everything

 

Im waiting for a reason why we shouldn't fix 3PP.

Because it's not broken. 3rd person is not resposible that 1st person lover cant hit the right buttons in the server browser. Maybe aiming is wrong?

 

Next.

Sure

Edited January 16, 2014 by Ken Bean

[Skinup69 24]

Well hopefully they can do that then!

Might as well lock this thread now lol

That's the only option in my eyes is a 4th wall.

Us 3rd person players aren't saying no to fixes.

We are saying no to the idiots that think 1st person would be better.

All my points I have made are valid against first person play and I have not said once not to fix up 3rd person.

I feel there will be no fix in the future, it's a massive risk for this game and there are 1000's more important things to be fixed.

Edited January 16, 2014 by Skinup69

[floj 393]

Ken Bean: Same points already been rubbished.
 

Snipers can't see through cover without exposing themselves to look. Using cover AND peeking out from it succesfully is what cover based shooters are about, even COD. It's a broken mechanic that leads to stalemates and asymmetric pvp. We're suggesting ways to fix it. You still haven't addressed how this will affect PvE when entering towns (hopefully) full of zombies later in development.

 

It's not harder PvP when you have easier, risk free knowledge of your opponent and his movements. It's like one player using a map-hack in Starcraft - for that player, things are considerably easier.

 

Separating the playerbase into 1PP and 3PP servers causes issues with balancing gameplay as the game progresses through the alpha into beta.

 

So, still nothing new, still on pages 1-5... still on the OP in fact. And so the cycle continues because you're ignoring the counter arguments. Your sarcasm is poorly implemented.

 

Skinup: Maybe there's something new that hasn't been considered? Hence why the topic exists :) Also please don't attempt to bring elitism back into the discussion by referring to 1PP players as noobs, I'm not gonna be drawn into this like others are (I mentioned this in OP). I consider it more of a risk for the game to leave these issues untackled due to the aforementioned balancing of PvE.

[Ken Bean 174]

Ken Bean: Same points already been rubbished.

 

Snipers can't see through cover without exposing themselves to look. Using cover AND peeking out from it succesfully is what cover based shooters are about, even COD. It's a broken mechanic that leads to stalemates and asymmetric pvp. We're suggesting ways to fix it. You still haven't addressed how this will affect PvE when entering towns (hopefully) full of zombies later in development.

Asymetric pvp, that's what the reality of war today is.

But to help you on the way: It's a game. As it is a game, you have limited abilities to interact with your environment. And because you are limited in enteracting with the environment, you cant really cover yourself. No, there is no way to mask your self as being a chimney. That's what I mean wit: This game gives you a limited experience and it's not even close to reality.

So you have to do some compromises, call it metaphor if you want, to counter that horrible amputation a game does by nature.

I fail to see how someone can't understand that. It's reasonable, it's plain clear language I hope.

Your problem seems to be that you are thinking in the limiting limits of the game? "How's that someone can cover?" you ask. Well, plenty abilities, just not available ingame.

 

It's not harder PvP when you have easier, risk free knowledge of your opponent and his movements. It's like one player using a map-hack in Starcraft - for that player, things are considerably easier.

Two sides, everyone who spots another one can be spottet within the same rule set. There's nothing unfair, theres's no exploit, same rules aplly to all. We just have another additional vector. In fact making pvp more complex.

Separating the playerbase into 1PP and 3PP servers causes issues with balancing gameplay as the game progresses through the alpha into beta.

That's why I suggested to have seperated hives several times. Balance problem is fixed, since we now have two seperated rule sets - simply devided by a server setting "1st person fixed" and another hive. That's not a too complicated thing. Works and already can be implemented by ease.

Edited January 16, 2014 by Ken Bean

[big_t 66]

 

 

Next. Im waiting for a reason why we shouldn't fix 3PP.

 

 

 

Yeah I asked twice on this very thread why wouldn't 3PP advocates agree to the 4th wall method,,,, nothing but cricket sounds.

 

I'm not sure those abusing the view point advantage want it to be addressed.  

 

Don't get me wrong I understand the comfort / preference thing for 3PP, but why not remove the exploits?

Edited January 16, 2014 by Big_T

[Max Planck 7174]

Well this is your problem. Your a counter strike player trying to play DayZ like counter strike lol

You wouldn't be here or the SA if it wasn't for great DayZ videos.

When DayZ got big players like ya self came and started playing it like cod or any other PVP FPS.

 

 

This is the biggest pile of shit I've read.

Hope this is better.

 

It's true though...but ya it might be fixed somehow I get it but ull still get the idiots moaning.

 

We are saying no to the idiots that think 1st person would be better.

 

I have asked for civility many times here, but you refuse to listen.

Post any more like that above and I will make you go away.

 

Some people are trying to have a debate in here and some are trying to ruin it. I have no more patience for the latter group.

You all know which group you belong to. No, topic please.

[floj 393]

There is no way to mask yourself as a chimney...that's your case?

 

Maybe don't snipe from a completely flat roof where you'll be skylined then? Snipe from the window of a tall apartment block, wear camo and hide in some bushes (over a km away and you're pretty much impossible to see), use a roof where you can use an object to hide you from some angles and prevent skylining from others?

 

Good snipers don't need a vision assist crutch, they take up good positions.

 

EDIT: Less imflammatory

Edited January 16, 2014 by phlOgistOn