Fix (not remove) Third Person Perspective

[WrecklessMEDIC 129]

I'll say this:

If DayZ was created from the start with only 1PP you might have a leg to stand on. Unfortunately for the vocal minority it was designed as a 3PP game with an optional 1PP. Limiting yourself to 1PP is a choice you've made.

[Ken Bean 174]

Ken Bean:

Ad-hominem - lit. to the man. You tried to disparage my discussion ability, that is an ad-hominem argument that had nothing to do with the discussion

Well you just want hear what you want to hear. This discussion stile indeed has something to do with the discussion.

And let me add, a typical ad hominem is more like if someone would have said: "you have no balls, you are a pussy, thats why you play 3rd person."

Saying you are not my speaker, as you seemed to think, is just a valid point. Also pointing out that your preference in validating points is a bit... strange.

Edited January 19, 2014 by Ken Bean

[floj 393]

Well you just want hear what you want to hear. This discussion stile indeed has something to do with the discussion.

Pretty sure I've responded to anything stated, I believe it's you with your fingers in your ears. An ad-hominem is an ad-hominem, it adds nothing useful to the discussion, much like this post and the response to it I feel obligated to give you. Just wasting more and more pages...probably gonna have to repeat the whole 22 pages thing again in a sec after another wasted page on this.

 

 

I'll say this:

If DayZ was created from the start with only 1PP you might have a leg to stand on. Unfortunately for the vocal minority it was designed as a 3PP game with an optional 1PP. Limiting yourself to 1PP is a choice you've made.

It was modded from a game that already had both viewpoints. The SA is still being made, so no decision is final yet. Lead dev says he's working on removing the exploit, this was supposed to be a thread to discuss different ways that he might do so, so let's try that eh?

 

EDIT: Yep another page wasted with nothing new, so where were we 22 pages ago:

Tighter camera angles or an implementation of the 4th person mod will fix this confirmed exploit which only a minority of players want to keep in the game.

Edited January 19, 2014 by phlOgistOn

[WrecklessMEDIC 129]

It was modded from a game that already had both viewpoints.

Exactly. It has always had both views. So trying to alter the view you don't like to fit your own personal playstyle isn't exactly fair to the people that like it just the way it is.

[floj 393]

But that's an argument based on tradition. If we used that argument in all facets of life, nothing would ever change. We'd still think the Earth is flat and the sun revolves around us and all think slavery is hunky dory. It's been covered earlier in the thread. So...

 

 

EDIT: Also I'm pro 3PP, I just want it fixed to make the game better, not removed

 

Tighter camera angles or an implementation of the 4th person mod will fix this confirmed exploit which only a minority of players want to keep in the game. Pros and cons.

Edited January 19, 2014 by phlOgistOn

[WrecklessMEDIC 129]

But that's an argument based on tradition. If we used that argument in all facets of life, nothing would ever change. It's been covered earlier in the thread. So

Tighter camera angles or an implementation of the 4th person mod will fix this confirmed exploit which only a minority of players want to keep in the game. Pros and cons.

As I said many pages ago:

4th wall - Terrible idea, looks ridiculous

Tighter camera - Not as bad, but still looks stupid

Neither of those choices are acceptable to me. You're going to need something a lot better than that if you're going to alter 3PP.

[floj 393]

Tighter camera might be the only answer if there can't be suitable suggestions to improve 4th wall or a completely new idea.

 

The main issue with 4th wall is that the player observes strange results from the coding, entities popping in and out of view without much evidence to the player as to why it might be happening, it could be caused by lag, or by LOS - one of the devs described this as visual fracturing. This problem will be worst amongst many thin objects like through trees, where the entities pop in and out of visibility as he passes through them.

 

Possible improvements might be to add a slight delay between losing LOS and the entitiy disappearing from the screen which would mean that entities remain visible whilst passing through short bits of cover as well as a gradual fade out to differentiate this from lag issues which would cause a more sudden disappearance.

 

Also an issue is that due to the modded nature of the 4th wall, there's a delay between gaining LOS and the entitiy appearing. Whether this lag would still be present when hardcoded into the base game would be something to consider.

 

A final issue is making it clear which parts of the map are actually visible to the player or not, a fog of war effect, possibly with the delay mentioned above might be a solution for that.

Edited January 19, 2014 by phlOgistOn

[Ken Bean 174]

Its not a good solution for the nonissue, it instead just creates a visual inconsistency, breaking the 3rd person view in a weird way.

[minime1000 78]

There is no easy fix for 3PP cause it is inherently flawed. There is no such thing in real life.

But I do like that in a hardcore survival game where you can have a blood-test and botch it up, you can have blood transfusions with an IV or force feed someone poison, there is a completely unrealistic arcade feature that some people defend because "they want to look at their character", in a hardcore survival game. It is a crutch that some people just cannot play without and that brings the collective down.

Use the 4th wall, separate hives or remove 3pp. Camera zooming and positioning trickery will still leave you with a chance of seeing something you should never see.

 

I usually play on 3pp when I need to gear up easily or for some easy KOS fun when bored . When I am geared up I go to a 1pp server for some thrill and tension.

Edited January 19, 2014 by myshl0ng

[Adam.Stone 5]

Holy shit, people still complaining about 3pp. Go on 1st person only servers and leave the rest of us alone with your complaints.

[bad_mojo (DayZ) 1204]

Holy shit, people still complaining about 3pp. Go on 1st person only servers and leave the rest of us alone with your complaints.

 

I know it's crazy, but some 3rd person players want it fixed. The lead developer being one of them.

[b0dybag 15]

Good one, really make me as a PP3 user to think.. . thanks mate :thumbsup:

[minime1000 78]

Another problem is that if he makes the decision too late all these new players will get attached to 3pp:on and all the 3pp:off servers will vanish again like the mod. It will turn into a joke of a "survival" game just like the mod.

He should have just axed 3pp or fixed it before alpha release in my opinion. Bite the bullet and decide what game you want people to play. You cannot satisfy everyone as this game is not for everyone.

[kiwi_laurel 24]

My hopes that you (and others participating in these threads) will make a rational, reasoned and sensible argument about this plummeted into the ground pages ago.

 

The facts are simple and irrefutable;

 

3PP is exploitable (seeing things you wouldn't otherwise be able to see)

3PP is exploited (people gain situational awareness with zero risk to themselves)

3PP exploiting puts an imbalance into the game in the favour of the exploitee. Given the game is aiming for as realistic a vibe as is possible whilst retaining exciting gameplay, this is A Bad Thing^TM.

3PP exploiting can be fixed without forcing one viewpoint or the other on players (some like 3PP for reasons other than taking advantage of the exploit)

3PP exploiting can be fixed without splitting the community up across 3PP:ON/3PP:OFF servers (People like to play with their friends and every person has their own viewpoint preference)

 

WHY ARE WE STILL ARGUING ABOUT IT?

How does it put imbalance into the game when EVERYONE can use it?

1PP people cannot gain any situational awareness without COMPLETELY exposing themselves. That is totally unrealistic.

Calling 3PP view an exploit is stupid, I understand the reasons against it, I know the reasons for it, but what you guys keep using in your explanations is just mind boggling.

You claim its more realistic, when it certainly is not, due to limitations of a game you have no feel, you cannot move your eyes separately to your head, you are very limited in sight and sound, it would be like walking around looking through a small box and wearing ear muffs that translate the sounds of the world into 2 speakers.

How is this more 'realistic' then being able to see around a corner without exposing yourself?

The answer is... it's not! Its just at a different end of the scale.

You cannot argue this, this is simple fact!

3PP view allows certain unrealistic features, or exploits as you may call them, to make up for the fact we are playing a game, and will (at least for now) forever be limited to the fact that it is a game.

To argue that 3PP view is an exploit is absurd, and to assume 1PP view is more realistic is retarded.

[Obsolescence 129]

Reasons I Like 3PP:

I like seeing how well blended in I am with my environment.

I like looking around/over stuff.

I enjoy watching my character's animations.

It makes it easier to determine my current stance (arms up/down, crouching/standing, using items, etc.)

Doesn't make my eyeballs hurt as much when the FPS drops in the cities.

Reasons I Like 1PP:

Scarier / More Immerse

So the purist in me wants 1PP because it's that extra, painful step towards realism, but I'd be lying to say I won't be sad if they remove 3PP. The idea of running from Kamenka to NWAFB sounds a lot less enjoyable if I can't watch my character during the trip. Also, rotating in this game is a painful affair in 1PP, unlike say, the source engine. Comparing this game's 1PP experience to other FPSs / less clunky non-simulators is inane.

I'll be happy and play the game either way, but I feel certain I will enjoy the actual playing of the game less if restricted to 1PP.

Edited January 19, 2014 by Obsolescence

[somethingbloody 118]

I do enjoy both, but I avoid PVP in 3PP servers. Funnily enough, the 3PP helps me do that. I won't use it to kill people because it feels cheap, and I've been killed by it when I should have had the advantage. I was exploring the hangars, and a friend told me two guys were approaching. I didn't have time to get back into the prison/barracks where he was, so I stayed inside by the door. I switched to first person to aim my M4 at the doorway, rather than 3PP exploiting to see them coming.

I hear the footsteps getting closer, and closer, until he's on the other side of the doorway. I was perfectly still and not out of breath so he couldn't have heard me. The footsteps stop for a moment and then the two guys enter, one sprinting past to draw my fire and the other rounding the corner with his M4 raised, pre-firing at me. I autofired into both of them before I died.

My friend came to check if they were dead too, they had logged to avoid death. So he waited for them to reappear and shot them.

Interesting that the same guys who used 3PP for an advantage they didn't deserve also logged.

[Ken Bean 174]

I know it's crazy, but some 3rd person players want it fixed. The lead developer being one of them.

To me it looks like that it are the 1st person player want the 3rd person to be "fixed".

Dislexy is a first person player, the opening poster is a first person player. He clearly stated things like that in the past and recently. Most if not all of his buddies arguing here are 1st person player. Its a bitching for quite long now.

Edited January 19, 2014 by Ken Bean

[Obsolescence 129]

To me it looks like that it are the 1st person player want the 3rd person to be "fixed".

Dislexy is a first person player, the opening poster seems to be a first person player since he clearly stated things like that in the past and recently, manny of his buddies arguing here are 1st person player. Its a bitching for quite long now.

 

I'm a 3PP player, and I think it's a worthwhile change to make, even though it will directly impact the way I play the game. What's your theory now, theory man?

[Ken Bean 174]

I'm a 3PP player, and I think it's a worthwhile change to make, even though it will directly impact the way I play the game. What's your theory now, theory man?

Yeah, this also is another point. Could be true or not that you are a 1st person player.

What I ve learned here is that they are using every cheap trick. Whatever.

-

My opinion is that the "worthwhile change" just looks very ugly ingame. And frankly, it wont work, it will create a feeling that you cant trust your own eyes anymore.

Its breaking a very well working feature, that wasnt broken before.

Edited January 19, 2014 by Ken Bean

[Wolfguarde 108]

Another problem is that if he makes the decision too late all these new players will get attached to 3pp:on and all the 3pp:off servers will vanish again like the mod. It will turn into a joke of a "survival" game just like the mod.

 

Opinion.

Seperate hives and start handing out temp forum bans to the warmongers who keep flogging this issue. Neither side is a minority, and with seperate hives neither suffers as a result of the other's existence.

You have all established your pissing grounds. You all know the other side is never going to relent. Stop bitching, forget they exist and get back to playing the fucking game. The issue will never be resolved to either group's satisfaction.

[Jamz 253]

Agreed, I think separate hives is the way to go for now - if it increases development time then so be it. Any 3PP fix can be implimented further down the line and the hives re combined (or one deleted)... one thing is for sure, they can't please everyone no matter what happens.

Edited January 19, 2014 by Jamz

[Hethwill_Khan 233]

I like both views. 3rdPP is awesome for hiking and casual sightseeing. But combat situations i'm so used to 1st PP that i couldn't really fight in 3rd. Also I tend to walk a lot, especially exploring the settlements, hamlets, farms, as i tend to conserve energy and limit the noise i make, so the running inside houses situations doesn't happen often to me.

 

A easy compromise can be reached actually with little coding effort, although it doesn't remove the "look over the fence" trick.

 

- As soon as something is activated - raise hands mode  - you go into 1stPP. Exceptions can be made for all sorts of weapons - as soon as they are equipped in hands you go 1st PP.

 

There are some interesting situations where 1stPP can benefit everyone, but that depends on your imagination and roleplay style.

 

For example: There is no way you can pickpocket anyone using 3rdPP. The camera shows the thief sneaking to the backpack. 1stPP is a different story.

 

But then I use trackIR so 1st PP with look around and over the shoulder becomes more comfortable than the usual strafe and look and swing around.

Edited January 19, 2014 by Hethwill_Khan

[tommes 331]

And yes I'm thinking this may drive me out of the game.

Finally the solution to the massively expanding forum database here. Rumor has it that BI staff is aiming at driving you out of the game because the budget on server harddrives is to tight so sustain your level of trolling.

Edited January 19, 2014 by tommes

[tommes 331]

Seriously guys? You're still trying to argue with Ken Bean and his buddies? He's living behind a 7 ft massive brick wall. That's why he's so dependent on 3PP. You couldn't hit him logic there if it had the power of a nuclear bomb.

[Ramrodicus 0]

1PP > 3PP. Get rid of 3pp imo