Fix (not remove) Third Person Perspective

[Ken Bean 175]

There is no way to mask yourself as a chimney...that's your case?

 

Maybe don't snipe from a completely flat roof where you'll be skylined then? Snipe from the window of a tall apartment block, wear camo and hide in some bushes (over a km away and you're pretty much impossible to see), use a roof where you can use an object to hide you from some angles and prevent skylining from others?

 

Basically you suck at being a sniper and want a crutch to help you.

Also each house types exactly looks the same. How many different house types with acessible roofs exist in chernarus? Don't you see the problem? You know that there's no chimney on house type 2, fine. Nothing like this will happen in real life. If someone masks himself as being a chimney - it's just an example how real life snipers use to cover themselfes in a city - you wont ever recognise it in a city like Praque. Or do you want to tell me that you know every chimney on every roof in Praque?

See how pointless your argumentation is? You are trying to crawl into the limitations of a game as being a save heaven.

Edited January 16, 2014 by Ken Bean

[floj 393]

Rooftops aren't actually the greatest places to be if you're a sniper in an urban environment:

 

- Positions with a wide view are easily identified and targeted early.
- Positions with a wide view are elevated and thus easily encircled.

- The roof and top floors of buildings will be destroyed by artillery.

- You can't mousehole for concealed movement on rooftops.

 

See how bad a sniper you are?

 

Now back to how it breaks the PvE aspects of avoiding zombies whilst looting a town, let me strap myself in for your answer.

[fnal 206]

Well I am trying to work on a lot of animations to demonstrate a camera fix but school work has come first. 

 

The 4th wall only fixes the issue with seeing players, loot, and zombies.  It does not, however, fix the issue of still being able to see everything else over and around the walls.  There is still an advantage of increased situational awareness.  For example, a sniper has you pinned down, you could be looking over the wall and planning the best escape route when you couldn't otherwise in FPV.

 

A fix I just animated was that the camera's focal rotational point is not on the player itself but a few feet behind him.  So when you hold ALT and turn your head left, the camera immediately rotates and your character starts to move to the right part of your screen.  At the same time, the camera also moves closer to the back side of your character's head so there is no possible way you could look around a wall.  It's not perfect but I'd say it gets rid of 90% of the areas you wouldn't be able to see in real life. 

Edited January 16, 2014 by K20017

[floj 393]

The 4th wall only fixes the issue with seeing players, loot, and zombies.  It does not, however, fix the issue of still being able to see everything else over and around the walls.  There is still an advantage of increased situational awareness.  For example, a sniper has you pinned down, you could be looking over the wall and planning the best escape route when you couldn't otherwise in FPV.

This is true, but it's no more of an advantage than already knowing an area inside out before the engagement occurs - I think visibility of static map objects should pretty much remain as it is

[Ken Bean 175]

Rooftops aren't actually the greatest places to be if you're a sniper in an urban environment:

 

- Positions with a wide view are easily identified and targeted early.

- Positions with a wide view are elevated and thus easily encircled.

- The roof and top floors of buildings will be destroyed by artillery.

- You can't mousehole for concealed movement on rooftops.

 

See how bad a sniper you are?

 

Now back to how it breaks the PvE aspects of avoiding zombies whilst looting a town, let me strap myself in for your answer.

-hence the cover

-depends on circumstances, there is no artillery in chernarus 

-yeah, movements are bad, everywhere. known fact, but that'ts why snyper don't move that often

I'm no sniper, nor did I ever sit on a roof to snipe in the game

Now back to how it breaks the PvE aspects of avoiding zombies whilst looting a town, let me strap myself in for your answer.

Well, interesting how you think I would play. ^^

What do you think how correct is the "dead zed count" in the mod? :lol:

[floj 393]

-yeah, movements are bad, everywhere. known fact, but that'ts why snyper don't move that often

Snipers should move after every 2 shots as a rough guide, because after the first one the enemy will be looking and so the second one might reveal their position - they should then immediately move before they can be trapped.

 

What do you think how correct is the "dead zed count" in the mod? :lol:

 

I think the mod didn't have enough zeds, quality or quantity-wise to pose a risk. The standalone is already intending on fixing these broken mechanics.

 

EDIT: Anyway, I've proved that pretending to be a chimney is a crap idea. What was the rest of the crux of your argument?

 

Edited January 16, 2014 by phlOgistOn

[Ken Bean 175]

Snipers should move after every 2 shots as a rough guide, because after the first one the enemy will be looking and so the second one might reveal their position - they should then immediately move before they can be trapped.

Depends, they not only have to shoot, they also do recon.

I think the mod didn't have enough zeds, quality or quantity-wise to pose a risk. The standalone is already intending on fixing these broken mechanics.

EDIT: Anyway, I've proved that pretending to be a chimney is a crap idea. What was the rest of the crux of your argument?

Sure there are enough zeds. has nothing to do with it. I meant in your journal, the zed count. Because you assumed I would avoid zeds. Have you ever lived long enough to tell how accurate the zed count is?

to the edit: see above

[muddyraccoon 176]

No town in Chernarus would qualify as Urban Environment since every city is surrounded by tall hills with tree lines.  And yeah, you can't disguise yourself as a chimney in this game.  they look like chimneys and people look like people.  I read the phrase "Skylining" which means its easy to scan rooftops due to the distinct human profiles.  No sniper sits absolutely still, and each movement is plainly seen on your profile against the sky or background.  Who would think that is a good idea?  have you done it on a high pop? 

[floj 393]

No town in Chernarus would qualify as Urban Environment since every city is surrounded by tall hills with tree lines.  And yeah, you can't disguise yourself as a chimney in this game.  they look like chimneys and people look like people.  I read the phrase "Skylining" which means its easy to scan rooftops due to the distinct human profiles.  No sniper sits absolutely still, and each movement is plainly seen on your profile against the sky or background.  Who would think that is a good idea?  have you done it on a high pop? 

Heh, Im saying most snipers wouldn't even try to diguise themselves as a chimney :) Rooftop sniping is a Hollywood idea because of the points above...(identification/encirclement/bombardment of your position and relocation to another)

 

Ken Bean's just throwing out tangential points because he hasn't got a decent argument to say that the 3PP mechanic isn't broken...because it quite obviously is. He's been running around for over 10 pages trying to derail the thread, not being able to camoflage yourself as a chimney was just the latest feeble attempt that had to be shot down.

[Max Planck 7174]

Ken Bean's just throwing out tangential points because he hasn't got a decent argument to say that the 3PP mechanic isn't broken...because it quite obviously is. He's been running around for over 10 pages trying to derail the thread, not being able to camoflage yourself as a chimney was just the latest feeble attempt that had to be shot down.

 

From where I'm sitting, it looks like you are both just grinding against each other. Neither will budge, neither will let the other get the last word.

 

We need a fresh perspective here, but sadly there isn't much new to be said. This discussion has been running since 2012 and just about everything has been covered.

 

Personally, I'm taking the 'let's-wait-and-see-what-Rocket-comes-up-with' approach. It's easier, calmer and just as effective as yelling at the internet.

Edited January 16, 2014 by Max Planck

[The_Man 393]

This discussion has been going on really since like 2001-2002. The communities in these games always end up being split up into 1st and 3rd person servers. Every solution I see never appeals to both sides equally. I predict that the same will happen here because the solution(s) won't appeal to either side!

[Zombie Jesus 723]

From where I'm sitting, it looks like you are both just grinding against each other. Neither will budge, neither will let the other get the last word.

 

We need a fresh perspective here, but sadly there isn't much new to be said. This discussion has been running since 2012 and just about everything has been covered.

 

Personally, I'm taking the 'let's-wait-and-see-what-Rocket-comes-up-with' approach. It's easier, calmer and just as effective as yelling at the internet.

 

That is not how you forum, you forum by getting angry. 

 

As far as a fresh perspective or even a great fix that pleases both sides I really doubt that will ever happen. 3PP will never be fixed completely since there are plenty of games that have that perspective and almost all of them have exploits attached. DayZ and Arma has a feature I love but makes these exploits even worse with alt free look (sort of makes up for realistic turning speeds), so they could remove that although that would probably cause some anger. They could force to first while prone (I actually hope this one happens) but the corner camping, sitting behind trees, and hill line exploits will probably always be an issue. People who have a huge ax to grind will be upset that those exploits remain while others will call it a necessary evil while playing the perspective they enjoy. Maybe 4th wall is possible but my bet is it is not worth the issues it would cause with coding, server issues, lag, etc. 

 

If it was easy it would have been done, otherwise the developers have more pressing concerns. As always it is just my humble opinion and I am frequently wrong. 

[Jamz 253]

I've been keeping up with this thread and it seems that the majority think the Fourth Wall type of fix is the way to go, so I hope that is considered. I think perhaps in the mean time pulling the third person camera in closer to the head as far as it can go without becoming a problem could be a good intrim measure. I'm not sure how easy that would be to impliment but I'm guessing it could be patched in quite easily.

 

Regarding the balancing of the pve part of the game between the views, I don't think that's really something that should be considered at this early stage. Potentially it could lead to a slightly easier gearing up experience, but as that doesn't affect other players I don't see a problem.

[tommes 331]

This discussion has been going on really since like 2001-2002. The communities in these games always end up being split up into 1st and 3rd person servers. Every solution I see never appeals to both sides equally. I predict that the same will happen here because the solution(s) won't appeal to either side!

I'd be fine with the 4th wall with maybe motion blur or something. Enough population on 3PP:off servers would do the job as well. I'd rather play with likeminded folks anyway and it seems that camp is growing since this debate around Dyslexi's video.

[floj 393]

From where I'm sitting, it looks like you are both just grinding against each other. Neither will budge, neither will let the other get the last word.

 

We need a fresh perspective here, but sadly there isn't much new to be said. This discussion has been running since 2012 and just about everything has been covered.

 

Personally, I'm taking the 'let's-wait-and-see-what-Rocket-comes-up-with' approach. It's easier, calmer and just as effective as yelling at the internet.

Heh I enjoy discussion, even with someone that argues like a politician by sidetracking the points, it's why I got all Paxman on him at the end :P

[WrecklessMEDIC 129]

From all of the videos I've seen the 4th wall idea looks absolutely terrible IMO. I would definitely not be willing to play with that kind of restriction enforced.

If there were any so-called "fixes" ever implemented I would only agree to things like forced 1PV while prone. And that's really pushing it from the perspective of a 3PV advocate.

[The_Man 393]

I'd be fine with the 4th wall with maybe motion blur or something. Enough population on 3PP:off servers would do the job as well. I'd rather play with likeminded folks anyway and it seems that camp is growing since this debate around Dyslexi's video.

 

I can enjoy the game both ways. Sucks that some people I play with can't play in 3PP: Off servers. Ah yes, Dyslexi's video... isn't that the video where he was in 3rd person yet someone still snuck up on him? Might be a different one im thinking of

[Ken Bean 175]

I've been keeping up with this thread and it seems that the majority think the Fourth Wall type of fix is the way to go, so I hope that is considered.

Nope, the majority just plays the game and enjoys it in 1st and 3rd person.

[Ken Bean 175]

From where I'm sitting, it looks like you are both just grinding against each other. Neither will budge, neither will let the other get the last word.

 

We need a fresh perspective here, but sadly there isn't much new to be said. This discussion has been running since 2012 and just about everything has been covered.

 

Personally, I'm taking the 'let's-wait-and-see-what-Rocket-comes-up-with' approach. It's easier, calmer and just as effective as yelling at the internet.

Would be cool if sth new would be invented, but besides of 1st person or 3rd, there is no other solution. All what's discussed here from the 1st person advocates was to break or limiting the 3rd person.

Yeah, limits also can be interristing to some people. A game wont be able to exceed reality in regards of freedom.

In a ches game a pawn only can move forward. That's a limited ability based on a given rule set.

That's what 1st person advocates are doing: trying to force everyone into their limited rule set. Hence they make loads of arguments why 3rd person would be broken, wrong or whatever.

That's not the case, 3rd person just doesn't fit into their desired rule set. That's all. And keeping this in mind, this discussion is in its core about tastes and argueing tastes indeed is pointless and leads to grinding each other. You can deny it as you wish, but that's how it all boils down.

This has nothing to do with the "bad people", it's the topic itself.

Edited January 17, 2014 by Ken Bean

[Sidewinder24 103]

Ken, I had my wife read your posts and tried my best to explain what the argument regarding 3PP vs. 1PP was all about. She literally burst out laughing and asked, "Is this guy being serious or is he trying to be funny?" It was good to have a 3rd party review some of the stuff you post and affirm I wasn't just going crazy thinking you don't have anything legitimate say. Just thought I'd share.

 

She's not much of a gamer except she played WoW a couple years ago and plays Hearthstone now.

[Ken Bean 175]

Ken, I had my wife read your posts and tried my best to explain what the argument regarding 3PP vs. 1PP was all about. She literally burst out laughing and asked, "Is this guy being serious or is he trying to be funny?" It was good to have a 3rd party review some of the stuff you post and affirm I wasn't just going crazy thinking you don't have anything legitimate say. Just thought I'd share.

 

She's not much of a gamer except she played WoW a couple years ago and plays Hearthstone now.

I tried yesterday to explain a mate that some have an agenda to remove the 3rd person from DayZ. He made a face if I would have said: They now are trying to play bowling without bowling ball.

He litterally said? "Whaaa?? What kind of...." don't want to finish the setence here. ^^

But besides of that, greetings. I'm sure she also has something intelligent to say that you could share.

Edited January 17, 2014 by Ken Bean

[TEST_SUBJECT_83 465]

What if they reworked the camera for 3rd person?

So when you reach a wall the game realizes it and doesn't let you look up to see over the wall.

Or if it's a corner there is just an invisible wall that the camera can't go through.

This is something that just literally popped in to my head so Im sure theres some reason why this wouldn't work, so be nice. :)

[Jamz 253]

Ken, I had my wife read your posts and tried my best to explain what the argument regarding 3PP vs. 1PP was all about. She literally burst out laughing and asked, "Is this guy being serious or is he trying to be funny?" It was good to have a 3rd party review some of the stuff you post and affirm I wasn't just going crazy thinking you don't have anything legitimate say. Just thought I'd share.

 

She's not much of a gamer except she played WoW a couple years ago and plays Hearthstone now.

 

To be fair there are good arguments for and against both views, and a lot of posts from many different posters covering them in this thread and others. The only real issue here is how to remove the 'exploit' from third, if possible. Players do not have to justify their choice of view.

[Jamz 253]

What if they reworked the camera for 3rd person?

So when you reach a wall the game realizes it and doesn't let you look up to see over the wall.

Or if it's a corner there is just an invisible wall that the camera can't go through.

This is something that just literally popped in to my head so Im sure theres some reason why this wouldn't work, so be nice. :)

 

I think this is what I was getting at with my post on page 7. I'd imagine that the problem, if you limit the camera's travel, could be making sure the camera view was useable at all times (I had some fun moments with the views on the first Resident Evil games where I was in such a position that the camera would only let me see my legs and part of a wall etc).

[Mookzen 67]

And I repeat, just add 3D fog of war to the areas not in 1PP field of vision.