Mental Constitution - Social/Survival Mechanic for Immersion

[dubghall 36]

I have caught the DayZ bug... hard.  This game is amazing - I can see where they are headed and love it all...

As an Anthropologist, there is one suggestion I could make though - and haven't seen made elsewhere convincingly.
 

A "Mental Constitution" Mechanic - Be antisocial and hyper-aggressive and go nuts from stress and loneliness.  Restore sanity by helping others, camping and logging out socially, or just being solo peaceful for a sufficient time. (EDIT: note that bandits also social so this is not a carebear or karma like mechanic, evil or good wouldn't matter just that you take time for yourself or those you work with.)

The mental constitution mechanic would be an unknown scale, similar to the hunger/thirst/disease mechanics currently in play, representing the soundness of your mind, your sanity.  Neglect your social and mental health and the costs could be dire (or fluffy if ur skeert):

- increased camera bob or jittery view

- hearing/seeing things

- loot that isnt real

- zombies that arent there

- rabits/doors/etc that sound like zombies - hehe-

- your friend looks like a zombie

- people standing next to you suddenly that arent there

- finally, eventually, catatonic fear and incapacitation

 

All incoming damage, poor health, and fatigue would result in deductions to your mental constitution (though to a much smaller degree than the physical deductions to your health or hunger - this system would only really kick in for your average player in the 6th significant play session - being one of the things you have to consider after you have sufficient survival gear).  Repetitively neglected social interactions would also reduce your mental constitution.  A zombie slashing your face... a firefight with a former friend... having no one who knows you... going cannibal (edit: thx Upsidian)... these things should fuck you up - you should have to DO something to keep it together. 

 

Alone, Mental Constitution could be restored only slowly by "peaceful time" timers (it goes up between combat bouts and/or at times of prolonged health) or by setting camps, fires, cooked food, antidepressants (edit; thx Tumoa, SixGunLover), luxuries (tape player and tapes as loot, or instruments), resting (decreased auditory and visual cues, no movement etc), or sleeping (safe/long logout required)

 

Socially, Mental Constitution could be restored much more quickly by similar activities that are JOINED by a friend (i.e., both of you combine resources to setup a nicer tent, a nicer fireplace, better food etc.  Sharing food could be a real mechanic that keeps you happier and more mentally sound.  Mental Constitution could be restored even further if someone logs out in a social/camp style setting (say at the end of a play session), mimicking a night or long period of rest and recuperation.

Imagine how thankful you'd be for that "REAL friendly"?  Imagine your regret at having held someone up or murdered them only to realize that night that you are starting to see and hear shit from PTSD or sheer loneliness.  Imagine how this would change community interactions and attitudes.  How much more traumatic would the inevitable betrayal be? How much more sweet the true friendships?

 

If any of you remember Starwars Galaxies... mind wounds could only be healed socially and left your character at a severe disadvantage for neglecting social interaction and rest. This mechanic is not used in many games - but it was extremely successful in SWG - creating whole niches for players that wanted to be helpful - or were good at it (bandits help each other too by the way).

 

Some other thoughts and balancing concepts:

- Duffel bags that you can carry at the cost of your primary weapon or on your shoulder (tents, luxury goods, wood...these things are bulky - one member of your group could be the dedicated mule - i suggest the new guy).

- Bonuses to Mental Constitution from being healed or bandaged or fed by someone else (when wounded)

- Tents, fires, cooked food that could benefit from multiple people contributing

- A mandatory logout timer for camps that would encourage players to find a truly safe place to logout

- Camps where people have logged out would be lootable and players attackable for a specified time

- People would or could set watches over their resting friends (particularly if the logout timer was relatively quick (10 - 15 min or so)
- You could bide your time and steal things from the camp, but significant loot timers would be involved if stealing tents etc.

- On discovering a camp you'd have to make up your mind to join, avoid, or invade.
- Customs would be developed like: hiding your pack in the woods before approaching a camp, etc, ways of communicating your mental state, giving a friendly the benefit of the doubt.

- Player interaction options "Encourage", "Threaten"... which could push your sanity temporarily.

We need more reason to look for one another and fear being alone.  In DayZ (especially once zed populations rise and squads get bigger) we have even more need to come together than any other game I've played... to risk reaching out to the looter in the city below us rather than move on. This would compete with the ritualized Kill-on-Sight instinct and on some occasions replace it with a sense of serious loss at having failed negotiations with a stranger, resorting to violence, or pissing people off. It would discourage people from logging out near points of interest which would reduce loot whoring. It would allow server owners or guilds/teams/squads to encounter potential recruits more easily.  It would foster a more positive gaming community and generate amazing player dynamic content.

But what do you guys think?

Campfire - "The Freeside Trading Company" by Joss, the DayZ War Photographer

Edited January 11, 2014 by spcmonkey

[janusz.pietraczuk@gmail.com 138]

No.

[Korsbaek 1778]

Suggested A LOT of times before...

 

Better use the search function next time before you put that much time into a topic.

[kovie20@gmail.com 125]

The idea is great its just that video games have their limits. I feel like this is forcing people to play the game with other players when honestly that isn't what DayZ is about. Some people will never want to interact with other players, that is just how they play. I know people IRL that don't leave the computer, don't talk to anyone for days on end probably don't even leave their house, and they aren't going off the deep end. I know if the zombie apocalypse kicked off today other than for my girl friend and close family I wouldn't trust a soul and wouldn't want to work with them. I'm sure after 3 years of living alone it would affect me but not in any of the ways above. I'm not sure that in this game its a good fit.

[TheLastEmp 295]

No.

 

Very eloquent... try elaborating next time.

 

 

I like where OP is headed with this... I just don't know if the effects of being anti-social and hyper aggressive (aka a bandit) should be as drastic or detrimental as you want them to be... Banditry and player battles are part of what makes the game great.  There needs to be more incentive to try and team up or not shoot on sight, but i don't think excessive penalties for bandits is the right answer. 

[dubghall 36]

Thanks for the feedback so quickly guys!  Just to clarify... I didnt claim it was a new idea... just that it was stated poorly imho in the past.  Another few point of clarification regarding my op... You COULD recover your mental constitution solo, as I stated.   Also, I am in no way against banditry... The word bandit by the way hast the root "band"... implying a team working together... Thats why i feel a mental constitution scale would be better than a "karma" or similarly carebear social scale (which I am completely against).

I would also suggest that the mental constitution scale deplete at a rate that is 8x (or more) slower than the food/water (more vital) mechanics...obviously the severity of the condition could be completely debated... from in game "fluff" to eventual incapacitation... or stopping anywhere along that continuum.

Edited January 6, 2014 by spcmonkey

[janusz.pietraczuk@gmail.com 138]

Very eloquent... try elaborating next time.

 

Sorry, I'm just sick of these topics. Everyday there are like 3-4 brilliant, totally original ideas of adding sanity. Each and every author thinks he's the first one to share this idea, as all are too lazy to look through the forums for 5 minutes.

 

This is frickin zombie apocalypse. Every survivor witnessed enough horrors to handle killing a human being. Let people play the game the way they like. When I kill someone, I feel bad about it. But I do not expect anybody else to have the same moral code as me.

 

Is this clear enough? Do we really have to explain this in every single one "original" solution for "fixing" KoS like if it was a bug?

 

Geez.

[Master_Corruptor 10]

Tie this in with the cannibalism thread and you have roleplaying heaven!

[dubghall 36]

Sorry, I'm just sick of these topics. Everyday there are like 3-4 brilliant, totally original ideas of adding sanity. Each and every author thinks he's the first one to share this idea, as all are too lazy to look through the forums for 5 minutes.

 

This is frickin zombie apocalypse. Every survivor witnessed enough horrors to handle killing a human being. Let people play the game the way they like. When I kill someone, I feel bad about it. But I do not expect anybody else to have the same moral code as me.

 

Is this clear enough? Do we really have to explain this in every single one "original" solution for "fixing" KoS like if it was a bug?

 

Geez.

 

So worrying for you is it?  And upsetting eh?  Poor guy... if you're so worked up then bother to read the OP and my response.  That makes two comments you've made without reading the OP well enough to know what you are talking about. 

1) I didn't say my post was original... I said that I was unconvinced by the others - though I support their general thrust. Reed Moar Betr. In addition, my searches turn up no hits whatsoever in the "suggestions" forum for: sanity, mind, mental, stress... I may have missed it but if not then politely stfu.

2) The stimuli for loosing your mind can be completely debated (or shat on if that fits your trollish nature), and doesnt have to involve firefights or player killing or zombie killing or whatever... but you cannot tell me that a survivor is so well adapted already that stress affects them not-at-all... or that injury, sleep deprevation, homelessness, and solitude (not to mention potentially cannibalism) don't carry a mental load.  Pure isolation is enough to induce serious mental trouble in even trained individuals in very short order - lookitup.  Combat veterans everywhere are laughing at you, sir.

 

3) Again... bother to read the OP... this does not "fix" KOS... it compliments it.  Zero penalty for specifically KOS in the mechanic I proposed, only for flying solo or not taking care of yourself.  If you want to play solo btw you really think DayZ... a combat simulation survival MMO is the spot for that playerbase eh? Go HALO plz.

 

4) I think you cant hang and are worried about another game mechanic to juggle, even if it could be fun for much of the player base and better for the community

Keep in mind on this topic that if you're worried about another aspect of the game "making it too hard" then this whole Mental Constitution notion could be purely a buff rather than a liability... but id call: panzy.

Edited January 7, 2014 by spcmonkey

[janusz.pietraczuk@gmail.com 138]

Search for two keywords - "sanity" and "humanity" gave me over 100 hits. 2 minutes spent on using the "search" function.

 

I bet you have never played the mod, as most of your ideas were already implemented in the Dayz Mod or Dayz Mod Mods ;P.

 

I guess if I can handle Dwarf Fortress pretty well, I would also be able to handle these mechanics of yours.

 

I am not going to give you any more reasons to get angry at me, or insult me. I'll just remind you what u did wrote at the end of your first post: "But what do you guys think?". If you can't accept that others have different views than you, don't ask for feedback for your ideas.

[Steak and Potatoes 13480]

I think if it was implemented in the start during the mod people would be used to it and not mind it.  Its been suggested alot and most people do not jump with excitement because they are set in to the current style of gameplay.  IMHO with a sandbox I do not want to see choices effecting my character to that degree.

[bLudmadic 1]

I think it sounds interesting,would be cool to see it implemented,maybe a server side option for roleplaying server?

[Tumoa 359]

i like this it adds to roleplaying aspect of a game. though i think there should be a way to fight this like anti-depressants

[Koala :3 116]

This.. This would just drive me insane..

[Katabasis 83]

ideas like this really are what drives dayz.  Whether you like it or not this is a sandbox, humanity simulator.  Systems are put in place to appropriately simulate health in almost every way (including blood type) except mental health.  Why is it outside the stretch of imagination to see a mental health section added to the overall health system already in place.  It does nothing but add to the immersion that a player can experience.  The only people I can reasonably see being completely against this are players who are either dead-set on this game being a carbon copy of the mod (and if you are you are being closed minded and imo dense) or want to see this game as simply a TDM style COD.  If you are looking for the second, go play the ARMA 3 mods that are already available.  This game is SPECIFICALLY about human interaction and all its variables.  It is kind of silly to look at the ingame health system and not see how easily a mental health system (of any type) couldnt be easily added AND easily accepted by all players.

[Gandolaf 81]

ANd they STILL keep coming...

[Publik 404]

I'd be fine with a mental health system, but when it's proposed as a punishment for any style of play I have to disagree. In general I like the idea of luxury items, downtime, good food, etc, but I'd tie that to a "happiness" meter instead of a "sanity" meter. If you're slogging through shit all day your character won't feel that great mentally, and their physical traits will suffer for it. If you take a break, have a nice steak, and pop a beer, your character feels better and is more responsive etc. It'd also be cool to have a "fear" meter that zombies cause, sort of like Amnesia I think where spooky ghosts make your character start to shake; anything to make the zombies unpleasant.

 

There was someone who posted a few days ago about their first kill - that it made them feel physically sick. The focus should be on keeping that actual response, not putting in an artificial system.

[SixGunLover 54]

We may have something here; anti-depressants

 

If your char for example only eat tuna and drink water for 20 days, he may feel a little bit depressed, more resigned, is reflexe are not what they used to be, etc. But of course, if you cook a good steak or drink some soda or have a nice cereal snack, he may feel a little bit better. If not, anti-depressants or the prolonged presence of other players nearby can cure that.

 

just an idea, I will not defend it. :P

[dubghall 36]

Publik - I didnt intend it as a punishment for a playstyle at all... just as an added immersive/reality element that as a side effect would benefit people who take good care of themselves solo, or work better together... whether they work together to bandit or to survive...

 

SixGunLover - I like that inclusion a lot, I put it in the edit on the OP since you and Zumoa both rec'd it.

 

The more I think about it too I'm liking that this system could really create a lot of need for rare or ultrarare drops in endgame - Things worth fighting over as luxuries etc...

Edited January 8, 2014 by spcmonkey

[Bearington (DayZ) 7]

Sounds like a terrible idea. The game already plays with the player's psychology. We don't need invisable loot because after a long trip through an already looted town our desperate eyes may trick us that there's a neet thingus in the distance.Our charactor's don't need PTSD since the aftermath of an altercation (assuming we survive) will leave us paranoid. We don't need zombie sounds coming from animals because it's a bug and is annoying. 

 

All I think a system like this would do is make the game's stimuli unrealiable, and when something in a game is unrealiable it tends to lead to frustration more often than not. 

[dubghall 36]

Sounds like a terrible idea. The game already plays with the player's psychology. We don't need invisable loot because after a long trip through an already looted town our desperate eyes may trick us that there's a neet thingus in the distance.Our charactor's don't need PTSD since the aftermath of an altercation (assuming we survive) will leave us paranoid. We don't need zombie sounds coming from animals because it's a bug and is annoying. 

 

All I think a system like this would do is make the game's stimuli unrealiable, and when something in a game is unrealiable it tends to lead to frustration more often than not. 

 

I can see where you are coming from Bearington... but wouldnt you agree that in this case the unreliability would be predictable?  If you ignored the warning signs, you'd know later you cant trust your senses to some degree... and that would only be after you intentionally continued to neglect your well-being. 

[ambiguousFoo 12]

The TLDR I pulled out from the OP was:

 

- Don't implement a mental health system that penalizes players for PKs/Banditry/solo play

 

- DO implement a mental health system that incentivizes peaceful interactions with other players.

 

Any incoming trolls, please chew on this a moment.  This may be the 1millionth thread on sanity, but that in itself tells us that there is an incredible demand by the community to talk about a mechanic that incentivizes player behavior beyond simply "me hungry, me take your food!".  Dayz is both a game AND a simulation (these are not synonymous).  In a "real" zombie apocalypse, there would also be incentives for peaceful interaction with other humans (albeit tense and nerve wracking) such as:

 

- acquiring information (bandits in the area, safe communities nearby, geographical infromation, location of resources........)

- the "human" need for social interaction

- working together to build structures/agriculture

- trading

 

Since this is a "game" though, non-tangible factors such as info gathering need to be replicated by systems that incentivize players (like the OP).  There have been a few great comments in this thread, particularly those that astutely picked up on how the game mechanics shape play experience (the person who got sick over his first kill is a great example).  The reason that player got sick over his first kill was because a kill MATTERS.... its important.  

 

Its a serious deal because the game mechanics dictate this (its not just the player).  A sanity system then extends these game mechanics, it can help refine what is important.  In this case, finding other players becomes more important for more reasons than just farming gear, which adds complexity, depth, and fun.

 

 

P.S.  The Star Wars Galaxies reference WAS SPOT ON AMAZING.  Chilling out at player camps and other skills/activities that incentivized social behaviors was a gem.

Edited January 8, 2014 by ambiguousFoo

[Bearington (DayZ) 7]

I can see where you are coming from Bearington... but wouldnt you agree that in this case the unreliability would be predictable?  If you ignored the warning signs, you'd know later you cant trust your senses to some degree... and that would only be after you intentionally continued to neglect your well-being. 

 

That's a good point. Case in point: Eternal Darkness: Sanity's Requiem

Eternal Darkness had some really fucked up sanity effects( like a charactor accidentally shooting himself with an unloaded gun), but never sprung them on you unfairly. You had a Sanity meter that drained whenever you saw something messed up or UNKNOWABLE( because lovecraft says). The thing is, that game had an internal narative. And what I mean by that is that it told it's own story, you could interact and influence it in some small ways, but in the end every time you played through the game you got the same story each time. Now let me tell you how this relates to this topic before I go on a tangent about Cthulhu.

 

The thing about internal narratives as I've described is that they are often moved forward by charactors, personalities within the story. Since they have they're own personalities, they have their own agency and will do what they want according to their own values. Often we are restricted by those values when playing as those charactors (Like not being able to shoot metal gear rex because snake has a thing for grey fox despite furiously mashing the fire button " I can't do it!") or having their atributes and values play a role in the mechanics( Charactors with/without less-then-lethal attacks, people who like to avoid conflict alltogether by sneaking by everything or not having any combat training/experiance, being afraid of the dark and losing their sanity when hiding in it). These charators also tend to have angency in areas the players don't, like cutscenes.  But DayZ has no charactors (in the litierary sense), what we have could be more accuratley described as avatars. And because they don't have their own traits(outside their physcal traits) they don't have any real agency. Their agency comes from us, and because of that we are the ones interacting with the world.

 

 In DayZ we have what is called "emergent narrative." Emergent narrative is what happens whenever the player does a thing in a game that has a unique outcome, it's actually pretty common in games, it's what makes games games, actually(do I crush the goomba or jump over i- AAAh it killed me!). What makes DayZ unique (to me) is that it's one of the few games that only has emergent narrative. no princess to save, no hero to guide, just you, your virtual body and whatever the engine decided to generate. This is where the problem comes in (my problem anyways).

 

  Because the emergant narrative is dependant on the the player's interactions with the game, Introducing psychological elements to the game, in my opinion, would get in the player's way of the player's own psychology, or their narrative for their charactor. When you add hallucinations to the mix, it could get in the way of the player's narrative, With their avatar having a reaction to a situation the player wouldn't. In DayZ, the players don't need their avatars to experiance any psychological issues, because we bring our own baggage to the game. Or just like making weird shit up and acting like weirdos in direct chat.

[ambiguousFoo 12]

Great comment Bearington, however, I have to disagree (or perhaps my perception of the OPs implementation is different) with the following line of your comment:

 

 

 

When you add hallucinations to the mix, it could get in the way of the player's narrative, With their avatar having a reaction to a situation the player wouldn't.

 

My perception of the OPs implementation is that hallucinations exist to alter gameplay experience... they do not implicitly evoke an avatar reaction.  

 

Just like hunger/illness/pain can alter our gameplay experience with greying vision, shaking crosshairs, hallucination similarly adds depth of experience (increases point of view immersion).  The way that new depth is interpreted by the player is still free game.  

[hoik 415]

But DayZ has no charactors (in the litierary sense), what we have could be more accuratley described as avatars. And because they don't have their own traits(outside their physcal traits) they don't have any real agency. Their agency comes from us, and because of that we are the ones interacting with the world.

 

 In DayZ we have what is called "emergent narrative." Emergent narrative is what happens whenever the player does a thing in a game that has a unique outcome, it's actually pretty common in games, it's what makes games games, actually(do I crush the goomba or jump over i- AAAh it killed me!). What makes DayZ unique (to me) is that it's one of the few games that only has emergent narrative. no princess to save, no hero to guide, just you, your virtual body and whatever the engine decided to generate. This is where the problem comes in (my problem anyways).

 

  Because the emergant narrative is dependant on the the player's interactions with the game, Introducing psychological elements to the game, in my opinion, would get in the player's way of the player's own psychology, or their narrative for their charactor. When you add hallucinations to the mix, it could get in the way of the player's narrative, With their avatar having a reaction to a situation the player wouldn't. In DayZ, the players don't need their avatars to experiance any psychological issues, because we bring our own baggage to the game. Or just like making weird shit up and acting like weirdos in direct chat.

 

 

This thread and those like it are all trying to bring to DayZ an important and missing element, (one of) which is consequences for our actions. I know a lot of that is provided by the engine (shoot a gun, attract the attention of other players/ zombies etc), but there are no social or moral consequences for players. I think its understandable that the many ideas that try to fill this gap are quite quickly shot down as too imposing on the players freedom, or feel like they dictate to the player black and white notions of right and wrong. This is against what I feel dayz and the survival/horror genre are about which is the grey areas of morality and the hard decisions. But currently these type of hard decisions are missing entirely from dayz, there needs to be something to fill this gap.

 

MY (rusty) TWO CENTS

 

For me there is relatively simple solution. Dayz needs to implement some sort of consequence for our collective actions. If we are given a reason to care about each others actions and how we as a group are effecting the game world, but are not forced to care, then I think all the stuff like narrative, morality and the intrinsic value of players, will become emergent game play.

 

Ask yourself what do all players value and how can you directly relate it to their character? The simple answer is loot. Now ask yourself how you can relate loot to each player intrinsically. My solution, have the average life expectancy (over x amount of time) of players in a server influence both the quality and quantity of loot spawns on any given server (or all the servers). For example:

 

The average life expectancy is low (over x amount of time), this means there is a lot of deaths be it by PvP or otherwise - logically this means that there is fewer mouths to feed and that knowledge (and by extinction technology) is being lost or forgotten. So the loot spawning will reflect this - there will be a high amount of 'low level' loot. Plenty to keep you alive, and plenty to keep you killing - but very basic gear of extremely low quality. So players band together 'for the good of humanity' and start helping noobs and looking out for each other (when it suits them) in order to bring up the average life expectancy. They are very successful and the average life expectancy sky rockets - this logically means that there are now a lot of mouths to feed and that knowledge is being retained (and by extension so is technology). So the loot spawning reflects this - there will be a low amount of 'high level' loot. Not much to keep you alive, and increasing concentration of good quality weaponry.

 

I think you see where this is heading - eventually the essential resources for living will not be enough for everyone - people start killing each other for food, the carefully constructed society that has been built collapses and the cycle begins again.

 

(If your interested at all in how this idea could be implemented please see the first link in my signature)

 

-----

 

Now I've come up with many iterations of this idea and I am quite convinced of its merit. I think it could work, but I can't say for sure how it would play out or if people would buy into it. For me the question of whether people would buy into the over arching story is actually what makes the idea so good - there is nothing forcing you to 'join in' with the overall narrative, but there will be people who do 'join in' and they in turn will want to influence how others act because of how it effects themselves (and their groups). This is where a type of 'morality' can emerge. There will be social consequences to our actions. There will be a narrative and the world itself will be a major character reacting to the shifting 'mood' of the players.

 

So yeah, I get where the OP is coming from, the current iteration of Dayz is missing something - it still has massive potential to be a truly groundbreaking game but for me it is not there yet.