The KOS conundrum, problem/solution.

[Flight96 99]

I didn't even bother reading it. 

*Strangles self to death*

[floj 393]

Agreed! I like the first point too. Building drama isn't hard when you had to shoot zombie family members on day one. 

 

 

sigh it had so much potential when I saw this

[Flight96 99]

 

sigh it had so much potential when I saw this

God... Don't even get me started on how high that fuckin trailer got MY hopes up lol...The final product we got wasn't even in the same universe. (Story wise.)

 

Side Note: Dying light looks to be a repeat of the exact same thing. Watch the trailer first then check out the gameplay...*Facepalm*

 

EDIT: ON TOPIC:

 

To the OP, if you want my 2 cents. I'm a KoSer myself, i have my reasons, it's a logical survival habit and i approach every survivor encounter DIFFERENTLY. Not gonna get into that. But i completely agree and support your idea, it's completely fair, not over the top and adds EVEN MORE immersion to the DayZ experience. 

Edited January 8, 2014 by Flight96

[floj 393]

God... Don't even get me started on how high that fuckin trailer got MY hopes up lol...The final product we got wasn't even in the same universe. (Story wise.)

 

Side Note: Dying light looks to be a repeat of the exact same thing. Watch the trailer first then check out the gameplay...*Facepalm*

Ooh this had completely slipped under my radar - Trailer has the right mix of zombie/human interaction I'd expect in a zombie apocalypse and is edited really nicely (again - their video dude is awesome) :)

 

But yeah, gameplay is Dead Island meets Brink with waaaay too much HUD and consolified 'press x' and 'XP' for my liking, might give it a go since at least they're trying something different, wouldn't buy it til it's discounted tho. I like the number and danger of the zombies though...here's hoping they manage that in Cherno

 

EDIT: Wait, I watched the wrong trailer it seems... I saw the E3 one with a guy doing parkour, not the creepy one with a little girl from xmas.

Edited January 8, 2014 by phlOgistOn

[autoloon 285]

Kill on sight is the way to go. When in doubt, take em out.

 

"Whenever there is any doubt, there is no doubt."

[christopher.hill449@gmail.com 314]

"Whenever there is any doubt, there is no doubt."

 

 

Sorry, it goes: "When in doubt, whip it out."

[autoloon 285]

The problem with KoS is that I am basically forced to do it by crazy care bears who just turbo run towards me yelling "FRIENDLYFRIENDLYFRLNENSD" and who violate my space against my wishes. 

 

If you're annoying, I don't care at all if you're friendly. I am going to do the thing that makes you go away from me. 

[wgaf 251]

We tell everyone we meet that we're friendly, but we also kill everyone we meet. 

 

Win its trust, win its life. 

 

No such thing as friendly in dayz. 

Edited January 8, 2014 by HCHellCaptain

[Mullucka 34]

KOS isn't the problem, after being betrayed so many times in the mod I will always shoot first. Most people play with friends so working with strangers really isn't a necessity.

 

Some things that will bring the PVP down to a better level will be:

 

1: End game content

 

2: Radios

[Mullucka 34]

The problem with KoS is that I am basically forced to do it by crazy care bears who just turbo run towards me yelling "FRIENDLYFRIENDLYFRLNENSD" and who violate my space against my wishes. 

 

If you're annoying, I don't care at all if you're friendly. I am going to do the thing that makes you go away from me. 

 

HAHAHA

[Pandema 352]

-opens KoS solution thread #2016241254-

 

Oh, insanity how original.....SEARCH FUNCTION

 

The reason people KoS right now is because there is nothing to do. You hit endgame in <1 hour and after that whats left to do? Log out and never play until something brand new is added?

No, they're going to take their Tacticool kit down to the coast and DM until they die and have to start again.

 

Oh, and to anyone who feels like posting a "My solution to KoS" thread. Don't. Your ideas are not original, go to one of the existing threads and tell them where the mean bandit touched you.

Edited January 8, 2014 by Pandema

[acid574 98]

We tell everyone we meet that we're friendly, but we also kill everyone we meet. 

 

Win its trust, win its life. 

 

No such thing as friendly in dayz. 

I'm sorry to destroy your imaginary world, but I am friendly, and it works pretty good. You know, you have to go outside and talk to real humans to understand how those things made of flesh and bones work. If you've done that, you can slowly start to be friendly in DayZ (watch out, it's a game, not a lifestyle, like some people think). I'd never shoot a new spawn after telling him that you're friendly, if you do that, I feel sorry for you. Probably problems in the family, missing attention, drug abuse or something. Of course I'm more cautious at a geared guy, but why shoot im instantly? Where's the fun? Pushing your ego in a game is pretty sad.

[IamDuca 0]

Even if this was implemented how would the game be able to determine whether your kill was a kos or not?

[Etherimp 1323]

Armies, intelligence agencies and certain governments. Enough said.

 

 

Armies, Intelligence Agencies, and Governments are not "Murderers", in the personal sense of the word. Are they responsible for death? Yes. But they deal death (except in the case of the individual/agent), from a distance. There is no personal contact and no personal relationship with the victim(s).

 

I think if you get any experienced military  veteran to weigh in on this issue they would testify that there is a considerable difference between dropping a mortar on someone from a distance, and driving a bayonet through someones heart and watching the life leave their body... There's also a large difference between that, and killing someone you know on a personal level.

 

In the case of DayZ "KOS", there's also a difference between being ordered to kill people as a "duty" to your country, and killing someone because you simply have no empathy, compassion, or respect for human life. There's a lot of power in patriotism/nationalism and the indoctrination you are exposed to throughout your life as a citizen. A soldier feels justified in killing someone in war because it is their duty and they are serving their country, and even THAT has psychological/emotional costs and soldiers pay the price for it. The only time killing someone in the post apocalypse would be necessary is either for survival or self-defense. Killing someone for a can of beans is going to raise that emotional price, when you know you did it out of a selfish desire...even if doing so was necessary for survival.

 

The only time these things are NOT true is when you're talking about psychopaths and sociopaths.. And of course, those types of people are naturally attracted to being hired killers.

 

Of course, I am not suggesting the devs of DayZ SA introduce an "insanity" or "remorse" mechanic.. I am only refuting the notion that human beings are naturally violent creatures without compassion and that we are, at our core, extremely selfish and self serving. Much of the violence currently on display in our culture is related TO OUR CULTURE. Our culture is incredibly neurotic and is driven by greed and competition. Not to mention psychotropic medications being doled out at astronomical rates.

 

Ultimately, I'm arguing that we are conditioned by our environment to display these characteristics (of violence, greed, etc), and that they are not all together "natural", for human beings. If you look at small tribes of people, they live in relative harmony with extremely low instances of crime, poverty, murder, etc. I believe if you wish to understand how things would be in a post-apocalyptic hellscape where people are fighting for their survival on a daily basis I think you should look to how small tribes operate and survive before you look at the characteristics of a large conglomeration of metropolises and their suburban and rural counterparts. There's a vast difference between a "community" and a "society".. America is a "society", where as a small tribe of  indigenous people are a "community". 

[ramatakahn 38]

FUCKING ALPHA.

[Wolfguarde 108]

Sorry, it goes: "When in doubt, whip it out."

 

Is it bad that the first thing that comes to mind reading this is Dante's cinematic when he gets the Lucifer Blades in DMC4? :P

 

Armies, Intelligence Agencies, and Governments are not "Murderers", in the personal sense of the word. Are they responsible for death? Yes. But they deal death (except in the case of the individual/agent), from a distance. There is no personal contact and no personal relationship with the victim(s).

 

I think if you get any experienced military  veteran to weigh in on this issue they would testify that there is a considerable difference between dropping a mortar on someone from a distance, and driving a bayonet through someones heart and watching the life leave their body... There's also a large difference between that, and killing someone you know on a personal level.

 

In the case of DayZ "KOS", there's also a difference between being ordered to kill people as a "duty" to your country, and killing someone because you simply have no empathy, compassion, or respect for human life. There's a lot of power in patriotism/nationalism and the indoctrination you are exposed to throughout your life as a citizen. A soldier feels justified in killing someone in war because it is their duty and they are serving their country, and even THAT has psychological/emotional costs and soldiers pay the price for it. The only time killing someone in the post apocalypse would be necessary is either for survival or self-defense. Killing someone for a can of beans is going to raise that emotional price, when you know you did it out of a selfish desire...even if doing so was necessary for survival.

 

The only time these things are NOT true is when you're talking about psychopaths and sociopaths.. And of course, those types of people are naturally attracted to being hired killers.

 

Of course, I am not suggesting the devs of DayZ SA introduce an "insanity" or "remorse" mechanic.. I am only refuting the notion that human beings are naturally violent creatures without compassion and that we are, at our core, extremely selfish and self serving. Much of the violence currently on display in our culture is related TO OUR CULTURE. Our culture is incredibly neurotic and is driven by greed and competition. Not to mention psychotropic medications being doled out at astronomical rates.

 

Ultimately, I'm arguing that we are conditioned by our environment to display these characteristics (of violence, greed, etc), and that they are not all together "natural", for human beings. If you look at small tribes of people, they live in relative harmony with extremely low instances of crime, poverty, murder, etc. I believe if you wish to understand how things would be in a post-apocalyptic hellscape where people are fighting for their survival on a daily basis I think you should look to how small tribes operate and survive before you look at the characteristics of a large conglomeration of metropolises and their suburban and rural counterparts. There's a vast difference between a "community" and a "society".. America is a "society", where as a small tribe of  indigenous people are a "community". 

 

Not in the personal sense, for the most part - but nonetheless, the slaying of another human being is murder, whether it be justified or in self-defence, and any who are party to the planning or execution are guilty by association and therefore classified as murderers. The psychological impact is definitely different, and I agree that violence and the desire to end life are unnatural, but that's not so much what I'm arguing; rather, I'm arguing that those who murder can be part of an organisation, and often can become much more efficient at it by doing so. With the right structuring, an organisation built around murder can thrive where it should, by rights, collapse.

Just on a side note: I understand you including the difference between killing someone face-to-face and killing someone from a distance. I mentioned in another thread that one of the biggest contributors to the KoS mentality is the lack of communication; it's harder to make someone's game difficult when they're communicating in a warm manner than it is to kill someone who refuses to communicate at all. I think you'll find that the removal of side chat as a feature in the transition from the mod to the game is intended not only to make for a more realistic experience, but to increase the risk factor in running into someone on the fly. You have no way of knowing if the person you're approaching is someone you've met and played with before, or someone who has killed you, or a potential asset or risk. It adds an element of fear to nearly every encounter, which is only partly mitigated by having something like TS running as well.

I completely agree that we are conditioned, at least in part, by our environment. DayZ is very much set up to discourage spontaneous co-operation. You might be able to cover more ground more quickly with two people, but a city that might contain enough materials to supply you will now have to supply both of you. Excess supplies you could carry off and stash are now being sunk into another person - who, in any given case, might be an asset or a liability - and you run the constant risk of being backstabbed once they tire of entertaining you. Or stealing from you and running off. Or restraining you, poisoning you with rotten food, etc, etc. The game makes it very difficult to trust - and the most extreme manifestation of distrust in a setting like this is the refusal to engage in any sort of negotiation, favouring hostile engagement instead. You make some good arguments in your post, and I would normally be happy to debate it properly, but I feel this point is more on key with the discussion that's developed in this thread.

In short: The KoS conundrum, as the OP refers to it, is a natural byproduct of the game's setting, its theme. Discouraging it without actually impugning on that theme's impact and immersion value seems to me like a rather difficult task.

[hells high 676]

This entire entertainment medium is about being someone or something you aren't. Obviously it would be nice if people would use their imagination and come up with new and interesting ways to use this sandbox world (considering the most common argument from KoSers is that its a sandbox and they can do whatever they want), but its their choice. Play the way you want and they'll do the same.

[wgaf 251]

I'm sorry to destroy your imaginary world, but I am friendly, and it works pretty good. You know, you have to go outside and talk to real humans to understand how those things made of flesh and bones work. If you've done that, you can slowly start to be friendly in DayZ (watch out, it's a game, not a lifestyle, like some people think). I'd never shoot a new spawn after telling him that you're friendly, if you do that, I feel sorry for you. Probably problems in the family, missing attention, drug abuse or something. Of course I'm more cautious at a geared guy, but why shoot im instantly? Where's the fun? Pushing your ego in a game is pretty sad.

 

We have a duty to God, to ourselves, and to this community to conduct medical experimentation and exterminations. 

 

The life we saved may be yours, "acid574."

 

You're welcome. 

[WARPIG_ 18]

There is no solution since there is no problem. Please, stop trying to make DayZ a "safer" zombie apocalypse.

[Etherimp 1323]

This entire entertainment medium is about being someone or something you aren't. Obviously it would be nice if people would use their imagination and come up with new and interesting ways to use this sandbox world (considering the most common argument from KoSers is that its a sandbox and they can do whatever they want), but its their choice. Play the way you want and they'll do the same.

 

 

I'm perfectly fine with people killing one another in game.. I rather enjoy a good gunfight myself, as it gets the blood pumping. In fact, I really don't have a problem with KOS.. I'm not debating that the game should have less of it. I believe if people want LESS KOS, then they should lead by example by encouraging and inspiring others around them through kind deeds.. helping out noobs, etc..

 

The only problem I DO have with KOS is when you get fully geared military guys shooting fresh spawns... not so much in the mod, as I feel fresh spawns should know to get off the coast ASAP.. But this is an early stage for DayZ SA and there are a lot of fresh spawns who are also extremely new to the game, and while it's true that in DayZ, only the strong survive.. it can be discouraging for new players to immediately get killed by a fully military geared player for no apparent reason. 

 

I DO understand the reality of KOS, however, being that I am a more experienced player I have pretty much come to expect it every where I go, and I certainly do not play that way myself, but I have been guilty of killing an unarmed player or two.. I think anyone who plays this game long enough has at some point or another.

Edited January 8, 2014 by Etherimp

[McBonkhead 83]

Now that's a frickin' fountain of knowledge and incite boyz. The only topic I would have to double-tap would be the idea that this topic has been done-to-death (excuse the pun). In Alpha no topic is taboo, or can be over discussed.

 

We are here to give input, and I for one will play the devil's advocate to get as many people to play this as I can. And not just make it a turkey shoot for us in the know. We're talking about making the learning curve, a curve, and not a cliff - Now that's what I call a conundrum. 

Edited January 8, 2014 by McBonkhead

[tullyburnalot 26]

I love how people here actually believe that more endgame content will actually reduce the KOS mentality.

[Aetla 7]

KoS is not the sole problem imo. People kill each other because they got nothing to d but killing. Simple as that, 

 

It's not being psychopath because its easy get military grade gear by server hopping, and zombies are joke. When you got enough supplies, find a friend and form a group then you start to kill people. It's not so hard to understand. 

 

I'll try to find better server where i can find hero and even bandit clans for less random more organized multi gameplay,

[smoq2 221]

I don't think any magical system (reputation, insanity, etc.) would fix the problem. It would most likely be ignored, even if it had mild negative implications.

 

In order for the game society to act as a real human society would in times of crisis (mostly helping each other), we would have to go to the very heart of the problem - only very few of us have the physical and mental strength to survive alone.

 

It's the complete opposite right now. The environment poses no threat. I can run through Cherno with a fire axe and basically clear out the whole town alone. I might get a scratch here and there, unless I run into another player, nothing major will happen.

 

Why should I keep a companion around? To eat my food? To stab me in the back at some point? It's safer in every case to just dispatch any liabilities as I go.

 

What we need, is something that would make other lives (players) very valuable to us. It should not be a specified game mechanic, that prevents KoS, but the whole game environment should be harsh enough for us to need companions.

 

I guess that I just found the right phrase: I should need another player to survive - in any other case, he/she will always be just a liability.

 

My suggestion is to harshen the world. Make any city/town/base/group of houses/etc. almost inaccessible and suicidal if you try alone (Huge amount of zombies would probably work, but anyone can let his imagination flow).

 

Add some ability to survive in the wilderness by allowing consuming scraps of food and low amounts of water, but if you want better clothing, guns, tools, etc. you have to find help to raid a town.

Edited January 8, 2014 by retro19

[McBonkhead 83]

I don't think any magical system (reputation, insanity, etc.) would fix the problem. It would most likely be ignored, even if it had mild negative implications.

 

In order for the game society to act as a real human society would in times of crisis (mostly helping each other), we would have to go to the very heart of the problem - only very few of us have the physical and mental strength to survive alone.

 

It's the complete opposite right now. The environment poses no threat. I can run through Cherno with a fire axe and basically clear out the whole town alone. I might get a scratch here and there, unless I run into another player, nothing major will happen.

 

Why should I keep a companion around? To eat my food? To stab me in the back at some point? It's safer in every case to just dispatch any liabilities as I go.

 

What we need, is something that would make other lives (players) very valuable to us. It should not be a specified game mechanic, that prevents KoS, but the whole game environment should be harsh enough for us to need companions.

 

I guess that I just found the right phrase: I should need another player to survive - in any other case, he/she will always be just a liability.

 

My suggestion is to harshen the world. Make any city/town/base/group of houses/etc. almost inaccessible and suicidal if you try alone (Huge amount of zombies would probably work, but anyone can let his imagination flow).

 

Add some ability to survive in the wilderness by allowing consuming scraps of food and low amounts of water, but if you want better clothing, guns, tools, etc. you have to find help to raid a town.

I completely agree with you, somewhere in the middle is the right thing to do... We need to survive.