The KOS conundrum, problem/solution.

[sigvatr 154]

This is a setting where STUFF PERIODICALLY SPAWNS IN KNOWN PLACES. Hell, even PEOPLE RESPAWN !!!

 

This is not real life. Don't talk about realism...

 

The "game is not real life" card is overplayed on these forums, despite its great strides towards greater and greater realism. It's actually ironic.

Edited January 5, 2014 by sigvatr

[karbiner 29]

Haha just because of these threads I shoot noobs on general principle :D

[Bakercompany86 347]

No no no no no no no!

 

 

 

I'm a completely new player to DayZ.  Didn't play the mod.  And I think punishing anyone for their playstyle is ridiculous.  If you're tired of being killed on sight, you need to become a better player.

 

I try to always be as sneaky as possible, and watch out for other players.  If they are armed and get the drop on me, I run.  If not, then I'm in control of the situation.

Edited January 5, 2014 by Bakercompany86

[McBonkhead 83]

 

Seriously, go find some magic mushrooms and eat them.

That will be the topic of my next post, as hinted at in my first post "Everybody poops." under suggestions. :P

 

But seriously, this defiantly has to steer away from the morality thing. That's not the issue here, it's the in-game repercussions of lone survivors on a killing spree; And if your (character is) not a professional serial killer, the chances are your character is going to suffer from it. My idea is to make that 'new level of suffering' all part of the game.

Edited January 5, 2014 by McBonkhead

[jasher11 67]

yeah i made a post about insanity Kos n so on and i agree that if this is a 'simulator' it should be realistic and so feeling mental strain of killing would be good, however if there was an extreme loss of motor control or your character broke down in a field it would be a bit much, i think it would completely wipe out banditry which is a key aspect of the game. i think this feature will come into its own when players have bases and whatnot because people are killing people because killing is fun and after you have An M4 there is nothing else to do other than terrorise players. when it will take many hours of gameplay to build a fort, so you should constantly be busy working on your base and not out slaying bambis

[Furtherado 100]

Insanity system is just ridiculous.

 

I don`t know the story behind DayZ, but i can imagine that, after the apocalypse has lasted for a while, the survivors we play as will have seen alot of people getting mutilated, shot, eaten, they will have walked past mass graves and seen decaying bodies, and probably lost family and friends. 

It all depends on the severity and type of apocalypse, and how long it has lasted, but humans quickly grow accustomed to their surroundings.

 

"Normal" people are very capable of cruelty and murder under the right circumstances, such as the lawless world of an apocalypse. I`m currently reading a book about the mafia, when the allies invaded Sicily during WW2, and there eventually was no or little government or police there, groups of bandits almost immediatly sprung up, robbing and extorting.

 

There are many examples of war crimes (My Lai, Japanese Invasion of China, Russian invasion of Afghanistan etc..) and genocides committed by "normal" people, there are the known ones which i don`t need to mention, and countless less known ones. 

 

During history, the homo sapien race has found ingenious methods to murder, torture, maim and threaten eachother, so don`t tell me anyone would bat an eye in taking another human life in a post-apocalyptic scenario, where you would already have seen countless murders and atrocities. 

[McBonkhead 83]

 

 

During history, the homo sapien race has found ingenious methods to murder, torture, maim and threaten eachother, so don`t tell me anyone would bat an eye in taking another human life in a post-apocalyptic scenario, where you would already have seen countless murders and atrocities. 

You have a point.

 

I would suggest "The Cultivation of Hatred" by Peter Gay. A great incite into aggression during the history of the Victorian bourgeois. It's a good read.

Edited January 5, 2014 by McBonkhead

[Bakercompany86 347]

 

During history, the homo sapien race has found ingenious methods to murder, torture, maim and threaten eachother, so don`t tell me anyone would bat an eye in taking another human life in a post-apocalyptic scenario, where you would already have seen countless murders and atrocities. 

 

This is a solid point, and I want everyone who's sick of KoSing to take note.

 

First off, the apocalypse itself at this stage would have caused everyone involved to go a little nuts anyway.  You would see your heros, your hiders, your bandits, and your murderers.

 

So we can assume the people who kill on sight are already a little nuts and that's why they're killing people.  You can't tell me in all parts of the world that it wouldn't happen.  Unless this was a Japanese city, maybe then you'd see everyone working together to build a new empire.

 

But....it's RUSSIA of all places.  Not the best track record for human welfare anyway.

[sigvatr 154]

So we can assume the people who kill on sight are already a little nuts and that's why they're killing people.

 

They are not nuts at all, in fact they are much more rational and realistic in their expectations than those who let their guard down. The truly insane players of DayZ are those who are expecting something else from the game other than cold-blooded human brutality in its finest moment.

[Fabik 71]

They always have a melee weapon? You've just proven you know nothing about this game and how to play it.

Yeah...

 

I played the mod about the whole 2012 year. But I know nothing about DayZ... :rolleyes:

 

As for not knowing 'how to play it'... I'm told all the time that it's a sandbox game. I thought there was no right way to play in a sandbox...

[Etherimp 1323]

I think bandits and murderers would be the sole remainder of the human race during a zombie apocalypse through natural selection. In a world where acquisition of material that was once owned by another is paramount to survival, I believe the disinclination towards taking the possessions of others by force or theft would be broken down.

 

The problem is actually in your own head: by not killing others your odds of survival are significantly decreased. Morality makes you weaker and more predisposed to extinction. In an ecosystem where one collective group (ie. species) must compete with another variant collective for resources, even the slightest advantage by trait or circumstance in favor of one species will inevitably lead to its eventually victory by extinction of the other, whether through force or competition.

 

You might believe that trusting others and restraining yourself from destroying them makes you a stronger human being than those who don't, but this is true only to the ecosystem (civilization) that we currently inhabit. By natural selection, the human beings that are cooperative with one another have come out to have a significant numerical advantage to those who do not, which essentially means your beliefs and ideals are simply a matter of ecology and at the lowest level biology, even. Many millennia ago, the abstract collective of the human race with predisposition towards violence and enforcing competition had the numerical advantage but has since slowly dwindled as the ecosystem became radically transformed.

 

In the event of a zombie apocalypse or similar catastrophic event that renders society inoperable (ie. breakdown of civilization), the ecosystem would be radically changed again and the very essence of human existence redefined by those who survive natural selection.

 

You are electing to adopt the strategy of a near-extinct genus of homo sapiens and that itself renders you a profoundly significant disadvantage. The inevitable outcome of this competition is the subjugation or extinction of your genome.

 

Basically you are stupid and are going to die.

 

 

(Most) Everything in your post and, in fact,  your entire line of thinking and the basis for your argument is absolutely and completely full of horse shit.

 

 

In the event of a social breakdown, there WILL be people who resort to murder, theft, rape, and other "immoral" actions. Unfortunately for those people, they will eventually isolate themselves due to their own paranoia and others inability to trust them. The planet Earth (and in fact, DayZ), has more than enough resources to go around. Necessary survival resources such as food, water, and even equipment are not in "short supply", on Earth, or in DayZ. People you can trust, on the other hand, are a resource which provides incredible returns. 

Without cooperation from groups of people working together in a mutually beneficial relationship, the  human race would not exist today. The only reason we have evolved to become the top of the food chain is because we have worked together and provided one another with products and services. It's the entire basis of any economy.

 

Sure, we all know you can pull a trigger and shoot people.. .Anyone can do that.. But 

 

Can you make a quilt?

Can you build a house?

Can you repair a car?

Can you make a boat? 

Can you navigate a large body of water?

Can you hunt by yourself?

Do you know which herbs, berries, and vegetables in the wild are poisonous and which are nutritious? 

Can you tailor shoes and cloths?

Do you know how to mine ore, or refine it? 

 

 

The fact is, there are too many things to know how to do, for one person to not only know how, but also to do those things by themselves. In order to create a sustainable lifestyle for yourself and your offspring, you need more than just yourself.

Tribal societies, both historically and currently, live by what is called "Dunbars number".. It's been shown that small tribes between 70-150 people function extremely efficiently and live very fulfilling and happy lives.

 

Know what happens to liars, murderers, rapists, child molestors, and thieves in small tribal societies? They are either killed or become outcasts, depending upon their disposition and their "crime".

 

The whole concept you're pushing about morality being relative has very little weight to it, when you look at reality and science.

 

When the World Trade Center was hit, rather than seeing people taking advantage of the chaos by victimizing others, you saw people reaching out and helping people they did not know and had no reason to help other than that they were another human being who was in need. Your cynical philosophy on the world is archaic, absurd, and does not reflect reality in the least.

[serenityrick 218]

The only problem (and it's a big one) with punishing people who player kill like that is that it would be impossible for the game to differentiate between killing on sight... and self defense.

 

If I luck out and happen to kill a bunch of people who are trying to murder me mercilessly, it would suck if I started getting those symptoms... frankly it would piss me off.

Edited January 5, 2014 by serenityrick

[McBonkhead 83]

Well hell, I'm definitely reading both sides of the issue here.

 

So I guess it's up to the devs if this will be more like "The Road" - but with zombies, or more like a classic Romero movie.

 

The notion that more zombies and things to do will solve the situation is a good tacked to take, but we will see. My take is that there should be consequences to every action in DayZ. For good or ill. 

[Gdaddy22 299]

I know a perfect solution for KoS. Bring back bandit skin/hero skin/neutral skin so I can hunt for bandits and kill them all 

[karbiner 29]

Bandits don't exist

[soulesseye 35]

dayz cannot survive as an openworld deathmatch shooter with a touch of fail at being a zombie survival game...

 

good post op but ii would go as far as making them kill thier own teammates outside of thier controll like what happened on the walking dead with the governer...

 

pure pvp has no place in dayz as a survival game pvp vs humans is not survival its deathmatch...and if thats all you care about go play arma or cod and let us have our zombie survival game.

[soulesseye 35]

The only problem (and it's a big one) with punishing people who player kill like that is that it would be impossible for the game to differentiate between killing on sight... and self defense.

 

If I luck out and happen to kill a bunch of people who are trying to murder me mercilessly, it would suck if I started getting those symptoms... frankly it would piss me off.

no no non o its really easy actually its a simple scan of the other players gear to tell wither he is a fresh spawn or not.....its actually really easy to stop the kos but people would rather play a deathmatch game for some reason than a zombie survival game

[christopher.hill449@gmail.com 314]

Kill on Sight? Sign me up.

[soulesseye 35]

Kill on Sight? Sign me up.

ok ARMA AND COD KIDDIES...

 

arma is this way --->

cod that way <------

 

dayz is right here now please just lik e you tell everyone else GTFO

[christopher.hill449@gmail.com 314]

Kill on sight is the way to go. When in doubt, take em out.

[sigvatr 154]

In the event of a social breakdown, there WILL be people who resort to murder, theft, rape, and other "immoral" actions.

Your error of thinking here is assuming that murderers, thieves and rapists are incapable of forming fraternities with others. Murderers, thieves and rapists live with us, and among us, right now. They are right under our very noses and you would never know.

Unfortunately for those people, they will eventually isolate themselves due to their own paranoia and others inability to trust them.

This is simply a meagre denial of an unpleasant reality. What are you trying to do, summon doom upon them from your god?

Without cooperation from groups of people working together in a mutually beneficial relationship, the  human race would not exist today.

Murderers can cooperate with one another, and this has the potential to make them more efficient as killers.

 

Can you make a quilt?

Can you build a house?

Can you repair a car?

Can you make a boat? 

Can you navigate a large body of water?

Can you hunt by yourself?

Do you know which herbs, berries, and vegetables in the wild are poisonous and which are nutritious? 

Can you tailor shoes and cloths?

Do you know how to mine ore, or refine it?

No, do you know how to do any of those either? I might take your quilt and house and be prepared to murder you if you resist. A person could rape someone, or several people, and no one would ever know their identity due the deception sufficiently intelligent people are able to maintain. Morality afflicted individuals may severely disadvantage themselves because they follow Bruce Wayne-esque rigid, unbreakable rules when an amoral universe is incapable of recognizing evil.

Know what happens to liars, murderers, rapists, child molestors, and thieves in small tribal societies? They are either killed or become outcasts, depending upon their disposition and their "crime".

That is assuming they discovered them in the first place. Even in the face of massive advances in forensic technology, the majority of murderers, rapists, child molestors and thieves are never identified, even in advanced Western democracies.

When the World Trade Center was hit, rather than seeing people taking advantage of the chaos by victimizing others, you saw people reaching out and helping people they did not know and had no reason to help other than that they were another human being who was in need.

Many people you don't care about who live in some parts of the world you have no interest in celibrated jubilantly on that day. Actually being aware of that fact makes you care about their wellbeing even less.

Your cynical philosophy on the world is archaic, absurd, and does not reflect reality in the least.

The universe is indeed absurd.

[SalamanderAnder (DayZ) 1747]

nope.jpg

[Etherimp 1323]

Your error of thinking here is assuming that murderers, thieves and rapists are incapable of forming fraternities with others. Murderers, thieves and rapists live with us, and among us, right now. They are right under our very noses and you would never know.

This is simply a meagre denial of an unpleasant reality. What are you trying to do, summon doom upon them from your god?

Murderers can cooperate with one another, and this has the potential to make them more efficient as killers.

 

No, do you know how to do any of those either? I might take your quilt and house and be prepared to murder you if you resist. A person could rape someone, or several people, and no one would ever know their identity due the deception sufficiently intelligent people are able to maintain. Morality afflicted individuals may severely disadvantage themselves because they follow Bruce Wayne-esque rigid, unbreakable rules when an amoral universe is incapable of recognizing evil.

That is assuming they discovered them in the first place. Even in the face of massive advances in forensic technology, the majority of murderers, rapists, child molestors and thieves are never identified, even in advanced Western democracies.

Many people you don't care about who live in some parts of the world you have no interest in celibrated jubilantly on that day. Actually being aware of that fact makes you care about their wellbeing even less.

The universe is indeed absurd.

 

 

1. There is no "fraternity of murderers".. Any such fraternity implodes upon itself after a short time. Sorry, but these are just the facts. The only possible exceptions you could argue for are barbarian tribes, religious cults, and cannibalistic tribes. But those tribes/cults have a strict honor code within the group, they simply prey upon outsiders. It is feasible/probable that any small group "survivors" who managed to weather the initiate chaos of an apocalypse would also have a very strict honor code and become very wary of outsiders, and in many cases would probably murder outsiders without question. This, however, is not the same image of an anarchist bandit that the previous poster (and to some extent, yourself) tends to draw though. To rebuild society you need to group and cooperate. Lone wolfs may exist, but they eventually die off without legacy.

 

2. I do not believe in "god", so no.

 

3. No.. Murderers generally do not cooperate. There are three possible motivations for murder: Compulsion (Sociopaths/psychopaths), Passion (Crimes of Passion.. Emotional unrest. Usually followed by extreme guilt.), and Profit.. You could make the argument that small groups of bandits would cooperate in order to take from others "for profit", but the type of person that lifestyle attracts would be inherently untrustworthy, and as I said above, that group of murderers would eventually implode upon itself and fizzle out of existence. Even the Monguls, for as ruthless of conquerers as they were, would offer surrender and enslavement to their enemies before they would opt to kill them all. They only killed everyone who didn't cooperate.

 

4. I know how to do some of those things, but I was not the one arguing that Lone Wolf murderers and banditry is the "reality" of the world. I was arguing the opposite point, where cooperation with groups of people is required for progress. You are ASSUMING that a small group of cold-hearted bandits would be able to overcome a much larger group of cooperative individuals. You are ASSUMING that cooperating with others makes you weak. There are hundreds if not thousands of examples of "Civilized" agricultural societies conquering hordes of invading barbarians or tribes of murderers. You need look no further than the English or Roman empires. There is strength in numbers and people who are naturally cooperative are going to be more inclined to become a part of an organized group/society. Lone wolves and psychopaths do not mix well with others.

 

5. In Tribal societies of the size we're talking about, EVERYONE KNOWS EVERYONE.. There are no secrets within the tribe. If someone commits a crime, it is known about and everyone knows who did it and who is responsible. That is one of the many reasons why Dunbars number exists... Groups of 70-150 individuals are extremely efficient.

 

6. Proofread your post please. I think what you're trying to say is that some people celebrated on 9/11.. Yeah, and? There will always be 2 opposing sides to every issue.

[Bakercompany86 347]

I'm the nicest guy in the world, especially on DayZ.  If I get the drop on you, I'll give you a chance to surrender before offering you aid/supplies.  If you don't comply, or break out a weapon, you're going to die.  Or if I suspect you're a hostile, sorry that's just how the cookie crumbles  :D

[Etherimp 1323]

I'm the nicest guy in the world, especially on DayZ.  If I get the drop on you, I'll give you a chance to surrender before offering you aid/supplies.  If you don't comply, or break out a weapon, you're going to die.  Or if I suspect you're a hostile, sorry that's just how the cookie crumbles  :D

 

 

I think that's understandable .. Even heroes have to operate within those guidelines in order to protect themselves. That is much different than the "lone wolf kill on sight" mentality.