Accuracy comparison: DayZ vs ARMA 2

[Tiger205 48]

They were designed to take out loads of Ai. The hitboxes were obviously huge for players being hit by sniper rifles too

 

You have no idea what you're talking about. First of all they weren't "designed" to take out hordes of AIs. That's how accurate a rifle IRL is when properly used. And if you've played anything more than just DayZ you would've known what you see is what you get. Hit boxes are exactly the same size as the model visually. This has been the case since OFP and that hasn't changed. The mod was based on a mil"sim" and that's what made it better and differientated it from mobs of arcade shooters but now people want DayZ to be that arcade shooter? What's next? Shotgun that are innacurate past 5 meters? Weapons were fine in the mod but someone decided to fuck them over for whatever reason. This will kill the game, especially if rocket claims he wants authentic weapons. There's nothing authentic about artificially innacurrate weapons.

Edited January 8, 2014 by Tygrys

[-Gews- 7443]

The hitboxes were obviously huge for players being hit by sniper rifles too. I found it incredibly easy to snipe moving targets with some quick guesstimation.

 

 

 

 

 

As for guns being too accurate and easy to use - welp, same thing in standalone then! Try a Mosin or Magpul M4 with a bipod... instant tackdrivers.

 

 

I don't want "more accurate" guns, I want "more realistic" guns, and ideally they would be much harder to use as well (wind and elevation adjustment please).

Edited January 8, 2014 by Gews

[gibonez 3633]

I don't want "more accurate" guns, I want "more realistic" guns, and ideally they would be much harder to use as well (wind and elevation adjustment please).

 

YES!

[csharp 47]

I agree that this is kinda bullshit. 300 meters, lying on the ground with bipod deployed, acog sight, zeroed properly and maybe 3 shot out of 20 hit. Shooting one at a time. I know i can hit that with assault rifle in real world, because in the army we did shoot to 300 meters, human sized targets.

 

Not to mention that we weren't using M4, we were using RK-62 which is consider to be the best "AK knock off" there is. And no bipod, no sand bag. Only support we had was magazine (which is quite useful while shooting from ground).

 

I also support the "realistic ballistics" and gun handling. 

[wgaf 251]

The guns are, indeed, all a shit show right now. 

[Space Milk 195]

fail post

Edited January 8, 2014 by Space Milk

[Space Milk 195]

 

fail post 2

Edited January 8, 2014 by Space Milk

[Space Milk 195]

Lots of people who own AR-15s... one of the most popular rifles is bound to be used for hunting.

 

You'd be surprised at what some kids are capable of, there are a lot of them out there:

 

 

 

AR-15 is a varmint rifle.  You can't kill deer with it.  I HUNT DEER and a .223 does nothing to them.

You would need a .308 or .270.

 

-is the Mosin  way more accurate than the M4?

 

Because the Mosin has a longer barrel and more powerful round designed for longer ranges.

 

 

-are survivors less stressed or better trained when holding a Mosin?

 

Umm, neither?

 

-why does adding a muzzle compensator or Magpul stock dramatically increase the accuracy?

 

Are you talking about accuracy or kick?

If kick stocks help make people more comfortable and allow for better follow up shots.

If for actual accuracy, no idea.

 

-why does a bipod turn the Mosin into a de facto M24?

 

Umm.  Bipod helps stabilize the gun. EVEN THE SLIGHTEST movements of a gun, possibly unnoticeable, totally affect where the bullets hit.

You can still hit but not kill, so no.

 

You gotta realize, you are looking at 500 METER RANGES.  

You are comparing a carbine, a short barreled rifle, that fires a short to medium range cartridge the .223. with a full fledged rifle using medium to long range cartridge the 7.62.

Then of course with pistols.

 

The dispersion IS NOT representing the stress, it is representing where bullets actually hit.  You can aim right at your target from 500 meters and miss because of the slightest movements or because of your crappy round and barrel length.

 

 

 

 

EDIT:

I can't believe you people are horrible enough to hunt deer with a 22LR or .223. It's not a kill round, and it would probably try to escape and suffer.  I thought those rounds were illegal for deer hunting, which they should.  

Edited January 8, 2014 by Space Milk

[Space Milk 195]

There's a really easy way to prove which argument here is valid and which is absolute horse poo.

 

 

Take both arguments to their most extreme ...

 

 

Let's start with the argument that guns should function realistically.. That is, we input actual numbers from real models. Things like Muzzle Velocity, Point Blank Range, Bullet Drop, Recoil, etc. Then, you leave those numbers at what they are, and do not add any compensation for your character being a civilian.

 

What happens in this case? Guns respond in a predictable manner. Players learn how each gun reacts and they compensate accordingly. They learn, for example, that the AK-47 kicks like a bull, so they learn to pull down on the crosshair when firing. They learn that the Silenced M4 does less damage, has a slower round, and drops earlier.. So they aim higher and they lead their target more and they tend to fire more rounds than they would with a regular M4.

In this scenerio, the PLAYER (not the character), is learning how to use each weapon in the game. A skilled player will have advantages over an unskilled player, as he will know at which range it is best to engage, how much to lead the target, and how high/low to aim in order to increase the probability of a headshot.

 

Even if you make every gun dead accurate with absolutely no recoil, no bullet drop, no travel time, and no dispersion, you are still relying upon the skill of the player to line up the crosshair on someones head, and whoever gets better at shooting heads the fastest is the better player.

What's wrong with this? In my opinion, nothing.. Seems logical.

 

 

Now let's look at the potential for the other side of the argument..

 

Guns should have built in dispersion because the game assumes that the civilian is untrained and unable to properly fire a gun.

 

So what happens? Guns act unpredictably, and both the skilled and unskilled PLAYER cannot reliably hit a target because no matter how much time they have spent playing the game the guns are equally as unreliable. The more dispersion a weapon has the worse everyone gets at the game. If you add 1000000 dispersion, your bullets just randomly fire all over the place, and every gun fight turns into holding down the fire button until someone is dead.

 

How is this fun, or rewarding? There's no possible way to accurately predict how individuals in a realistic situation are going to handle guns. The reality is, (as this forum demonstrates), some people have never fired a gun in their life and some people have fired occasionally, while others are extremely proficient with certain fire arms. Some people are naturally gifted with good eye sight and fast reflexes while others are naturally uncoordinated. Some kids grew up being taught how to shoot guns from a very young age while others are scared to death of guns and don't want anything to do with them. These factors already come through from the player, and do not need to be imposed upon the character. The determining factor of who wins a gun fight should be the skill of the PLAYER not the LUCK OF THE CHARACTER.

 

End of rant. Carry on with your non-sense bullshit arguments about "civilians can't hit the broad side of a barn".. If you're so convinced of that logic, then how about you stand 200 meters from a 5 year old with an AK-47 and bet your life on how many shots he has to fire before he puts a bullet in your chest or head. 

 

 

At 500 meters this predictability is "less" unless you have a nice scope and bipod.

[dakisback 39]

 

AR-15 is a varmint rifle.  You can't kill deer with it.  I HUNT DEER and a .223 does nothing to them.

You would need a .308 or .270.

 

-is the Mosin  way more accurate than the M4?

 

Because the Mosin has a longer barrel and more powerful round designed for longer ranges.

 

 

-are survivors less stressed or better trained when holding a Mosin?

 

Umm, neither?

 

-why does adding a muzzle compensator or Magpul stock dramatically increase the accuracy?

 

Are you talking about accuracy or kick?

If kick stocks help make people more comfortable and allow for better follow up shots.

If for actual accuracy, no idea.

 

-why does a bipod turn the Mosin into a de facto M24?

 

Umm.  Bipod helps stabilize the gun. EVEN THE SLIGHTEST movements of a gun, possibly unnoticeable, totally affect where the bullets hit.

You can still hit but not kill, so no.

 

You gotta realize, you are looking at 500 METER RANGES.  

You are comparing a carbine, a short barreled rifle, that fires a short to medium range cartridge the .223. with a full fledged rifle using medium to long range cartridge the 7.62.

Then of course with pistols.

 

The dispersion IS NOT representing the stress, it is representing where bullets actually hit.  You can aim right at your target from 500 meters and miss because of the slightest movements or because of your crappy round and barrel length.

 

 

 

 

EDIT:

I can't believe you people are horrible enough to hunt deer with a 22LR or .223. It's not a kill round, and it would probably try to escape and suffer.  I thought those rounds were illegal for deer hunting, which they should.  

 

Are you saying you want this to be an arcade shooter like CoD; or do you want it to be realistic?

I am for the latter.

 

Right now DayZ standalone weapons are built upon weapon attachments. What we want are accurate weapons. Attachments should only be cosmetic. If the attachment does improve accuracy etc. it should be either a different barrel or weapon bipod. Not silly things like handguards, buttstocks, or bayonets.

Edited January 8, 2014 by dakisback

[Space Milk 195]

Are you saying you want this to be an arcade shooter like CoD; or do you want it to be realistic?

I am for the latter.

 

Right now DayZ standalone weapons are built upon weapon attachments. What we want are accurate weapons. Attachments should only be cosmetic. If the attachment does improve accuracy etc. it should be either a different barrel or weapon bipod. Not silly things like handguards, buttstocks, or bayonets.

 

If you live in a state where it is legal, rent a rifle and carbine and some attachments like scopes and bipods. 

Look for a 500 meter range. 

Try to shoot accurately with the carbine with the scope

Then try with bipod.

Try to shoot accurately with the rifle with the scope

Then try with bipod.

 

Or watch it on youtube and see their targets.

 

 

I don't know why you assume I want arcade shooting.

 

 

By scope, look for a long range sniping scope one and another one for short to medium ranges, like a ACOG.

Edited January 8, 2014 by Space Milk

[gibonez 3633]

Space milk you should probably stop posting.

 

I saw all of the nonsense you posted above and nearly everything was incorrect.

[Space Milk 195]

Space milk you should probably stop posting.

 

I saw all of the nonsense you posted above and nearly everything was incorrect.

Well prove me wrong with evidence photos and experience instead of making a backless statement.

[gibonez 3633]

Well prove me wrong with evidence photos and experience instead of making a backless statement.

 

I wouldn't even know where to begin.

 

Also I can't be bother to waste of time.

[Space Milk 195]

feel free to refute a point or 2 in the future.

[-Gews- 7443]

AR-15 is a varmint rifle.  You can't kill deer with it.

 

:lol: okay then!

 

These deer sure have been getting tougher since the days when grandpappy was taking them with a .32-20!

 

Because the Mosin has a longer barrel and more powerful round designed for longer ranges.

 

Longer barrel does not mean more accurate. More powerful round does not mean more accurate. Since the Mosin in-game says it's 82 years old I expect the bore to be in way worse condition than any new AR I find. Mosins are by no means "accurate" rifles.

 

If kick stocks help make people more comfortable and allow for better follow up shots.

 

And Magpul shrinks your groups six times how? If that was really the case every soldier would be issued rifles with Magpul furniture.

 

Umm.  Bipod helps stabilize the gun. EVEN THE SLIGHTEST movements of a gun, possibly unnoticeable, totally affect where the bullets hit.

 

Actually the bipod decreases the gun's dispersion by... ridiculous amounts. If this was ACE mod the bipod would just reduce the sway... you know, kinda like what bipods actually do? The gun is too accurate with it.

 

Then of course with pistols.

 

The pistols are at 25 and 50 meters.

 

You are comparing a carbine, a short barreled rifle, that fires a short to medium range cartridge the .223. with a full fledged rifle using medium to long range cartridge the 7.62.

 

And I maintain the M4A1 should be at least as accurate as the Mosin.

 

You can aim right at your target from 500 meters and miss because of the slightest movements or because of your crappy round and barrel length.

 

Not in DayZ standalone - you miss because... random number generator.

[Space Milk 195]

:lol: okay then!

 

These deer sure have been getting tougher since the days when grandpappy was taking them with a .32-20!

 

I'm not saying it can't kill it, but it isn't going to take 1 shot unless you are lucky.  It's far better to shoot with a high powered cartridge like .270 for deer, so it doesn't suffer

 

 

Longer barrel does not mean more accurate. More powerful round does not mean more accurate. Since the Mosin in-game says it's 82 years old I expect the bore to be in way worse condition than any new AR I find. Mosins are by no means "accurate" rifles.

 

The 7.62 has a far higher velocity than the 5.56.  Bigger grain, bigger explosive (the thing behind the bullet I cannot remember the name :(  )

 

 

Increase in bullet speed and longer time spent catching the grooves factors in accuracy.

That is the date the Mosin was released and brought into service.  Just because a description says the M1911 was made in 1911 doesn't mean that gun you are holding was literally made in 1911, that is when it was released and started being used.  Mosin's are popular rifles and you can still buy them today.

 

 

And Magpul shrinks your groups six times how? If that was really the case every soldier would be issued rifles with Magpul furniture.

 

 

I meant to say that I would imagine it would make a shooter more accurate, not by 6 times, but a noticeable amount.  Many guns have foldable stocks, especially in the military.

 

 

Actually the bipod decreases the gun's dispersion by... ridiculous amounts. If this was ACE mod the bipod would just reduce the sway... you know, kinda like what bipods actually do? The gun is too accurate with it.

 

 

I don't think you understand, YES they do decrease sway, which in turns affect accuracy.  I said the smallest movements can totally ruin your shot, a bipod helps reduce the movements.  At long range, it will have a big difference.

 

 

The pistols are at 25 and 50 meters.

 

 

My mistake :(

 

And I maintain the M4A1 should be at least as accurate as the Mosin.

 

I disagree

 

 

Not in DayZ standalone - you miss because... random number generator.

 

Represents real life shots.

Edited January 8, 2014 by Space Milk

[gibonez 3633]

:/ I see someone corrected you already.

 

Ahhhh I also see you continue to spout false information.

 

Like I know you know absolutely nothing about guns and probably obtained all of your "info" based on video games over the years but cmon dude a quick google search would help.

 

It would have taken you 2 minutes to find out that even the lightest .308 rounds do not travel faster than even the heaviest 5.56 nato loads.

 

Please stop spreading misinformation.

Edited January 8, 2014 by gibonez

[Space Milk 195]

:/ I see someone corrected you already.

 

Ahhhh I also see you continue to spout false information.

 

Like I know you know absolutely nothing about guns and probably obtained all of your "info" based on video games over the years but cmon dude a quick google search would help.

 

It would have taken you 2 minutes to find out that even the lightest .308 rounds do not travel faster than even the heaviest 5.56 nato loads.

 

Please stop spreading misinformation.

 

 

I made a mistake, I was looking at velocities and misread one of the numbers in the value.  

Still, they are very close.

and 7.62 is heavier than 5.56.  Higher mass while being relatively the same velocity means increased energy, and probably momentum, which translates to being more accurate in flight.

 

BTW I don't get my "crap" info from video games. I don't see how you could learn about guns from a video game, you learn by shooting it yourself.

[gibonez 3633]

I made a mistake, I was looking at velocities and misread one of the numbers in the value.  

Still, they are very close.

and 7.62 is heavier than 5.56.  Higher mass while being relatively the same velocity means increased energy, and probably momentum, which translates to being more accurate in flight.

 

BTW I don't get my "crap" info from video games. I don't see how you could learn about guns from a video game, you learn by shooting it yourself.

 

:/

 

No ammo is more accurate than any other.

 

What you might be thinking but cant properly get out is that heavier bullets buck the wind easier and thus at long range they don't require as much of a wind adjustment.

 

The round itself is not more accurate though it always comes down to the gun , how well its built and high tight the tolerances are on it.

[wgaf 251]

Heavier bullets are "more accurate" now? 

 

Seriously? 

 

Who told you this? 

[-Gews- 7443]

I'm not saying it can't kill it, but it isn't going to take 1 shot unless you are lucky.  It's far better to shoot with a high powered cartridge like .270 for deer, so it doesn't suffer

The cartridge is somewhat marginal, agreed.

 

 

The 7.62 has a far higher velocity than the 5.56.  Bigger grain, bigger explosive (the thing behind the bullet I cannot remember the name :(  )

The 5.56mm actually has the higher velocity:

M16 = 3100 ft/s (3150 ft/s with M885A1)

M4 = 2900 ft/s (2970 ft/s with M885A1)

M14 = 2800 ft/s (M80)

M24 = 2650 ft/s (M118LR)

 

Increase in bullet speed and longer time spent catching the grooves factors in accuracy.

That is the date the Mosin was released and brought into service.  Just because a description says the M1911 was made in 1911 doesn't mean that gun you are holding was literally made in 1911, that is when it was released and started being used.  Mosin's are popular rifles and you can still buy them today.

 

Shorter barrels are stiffer and the bullet will be stabilized quite quickly, a longer barrel isn't necessary. Longer barrels mostly just mean more velocity, which only matters at longer ranges.

 

It says "1932" right on the rifle. Besides, I believe production was ceased when, or before, the SKS came into service and that rifle entered service in 1949. You can buy them today because they made millions, don't need them and want to make some cash.

 

Also, the United States was initially producing Mosins and ammunition too, but confiscated all of it when revolution broke out in Russia. Then the US government used them for training and also sold them to civilian shooters since they never needed Mosins.

 

I meant to say that I would imagine it would make a shooter more accurate, not by 6 times, but a noticeable amount.  Many guns have foldable stocks, especially in the military.

 

 A well-fitting stock is important. Yet that is a personal thing, and Magpul isn't automatically better, especially not as much as it is portrayed right now. All the M4 stocks are currently retractable ones (they can't fold because of the buffer tube).

 

I don't think you understand, YES they do decrease sway, which in turns affect accuracy.  I said the smallest movements can totally ruin your shot, a bipod helps reduce the movements.  At long range, it will have a big difference.

The same in-game... it's way easier to shoot with an ACE bipod deployed than without the bipod, small movements ruin your shot already. There's no need for exaggerated dispersion effects if they put in better weapon sway.

 

Represents real life shots.

There are much better ways to do it, editing dispersion is a lazy and unrealistic way... they just need more realism, wind is the biggest missing factor right now. If you have ARMA 2 download ACE2 and try sniping at 700-1000 meters with the M40. it's both more fun and more realistic.

 

 

 

 

 

 

As for the Mosin being more accurate than the M4A1:

 

Right now, 50 meters, the Mosin produces a 5-inch group. Okay, I don't have a big problem with that.

Right now, 50 meters, the M4A1 produces a 2-foot group. Yes, I have a problem with that!

 

 

 

Second, the cartridges. You mention 7.62x54R is better at longer range. Why?

 

Reason one, damage... this is already modeled, the 5.56mm should have only 1/3 the damage of the 7.62 at 600m.

Reason two, ballistics... this is also modeled (albeit incorrectly) the 5.56mm should have 30% more drop at 600m.

 

I don't see a reason to give it 5x less accuracy, the only reason it sucks at long ranges is air resistance and wind drift. If it was fired in a vacuum it would be better in terms of drop than 7.62mm. They just need to add proper air resistance and wind drift, which would be easy if they actually wanted to do it.

[wgaf 251]

When you say the m4 makes a 2 foot group, do you mean without any of the accuracy boosting attachments? 

 

I think I have the optimal attachments on mine, and it seems to shoot very tight groups, even to always hit the crosshair. 

[Space Milk 195]

LOL I made a huge mistake here. I thought wind was already at play in determining bull trajectory.

Ok now I am seeing from your point of view.

Maybe a fix to this is: Leave it as it is (HOLD IT) but as your player uses guns more often, accuracy progresses to 100%, where the only thing else determining accuracy is your gun, sway, and gravity.

Wind should be in the game, I thought it was already in, or, it was represented in the generator.

Some one said heavier bullets are not more accurate? If 2 bullets, one slighty faster and one far heavier are flying, which one would be more accuracye? Accounting for WIND of course, the heavier round would be better.

Cannons, a good example. Bigger the shell, the better.

[-Gews- 7443]

When you say the m4 makes a 2 foot group, do you mean without any of the accuracy boosting attachments? 

 

I think I have the optimal attachments on mine, and it seems to shoot very tight groups, even to always hit the crosshair. 

 

Stock attachments = 2 foot group

All Magpul = 4 inch group

 

I probably would have been fine if it had been a tiny difference like the bayonet or suppressor, but that is just beyond the pale...