Who Are You? Or "How to make DayZ not all about KOS in a few not so easy steps".

[BlindProphet 34]

Right the first 520+ words are fine, and a choice few in the other 300 are not. Can we just get past that and understand my explanation that I'm not simply talking in complete black and whites here?

 

Its just as possible for a hero to lose their marbles in a scenario where they are not meeting other key critical health concerns as it would be for any other style of player. Its not about reward A/punish B..its about layered depths of achievement and challenge all of which work together in a complex web of interconnected variables that all have direct affect on the player and each other. The associated effects of which are variable depending on how they are managed.

 

Think of it as SimPerson....SimPerson with a Gun™. So aside from the daily routine of wandering around looking at the scenery and occasionally dodging bullets or throwing lead at other people, you are also managing this internal system of needs which begin to define you as a person over time.

 

Let me just point out your entire system is about reward A/punish B.  The -whole- thing.  Not parts of it, not just that part, the -whole- thing.  Its all based around the idea of 'play the game my way or be worse off'.  All of your rewards boons, and such are built around your view of how the game should be played (especially the mental part).

[semipr0 402]

the game you describe is like heroin. 

 

if you try evolving your character, and you are killed in the middle of almost achieving it, you will feel like shit.

 

if you finally have an evolved character you are happy with, you are gonna have some pretty statifying hours of playing.

 

Then you die

 

and you try to get all those skills up again, but you die and you die again and then you lost your job.

 

From a certain point of view...achieving a game design that has a parallel to heroin is kind of the holy grail of game design in general.

[lipemr 160]

it wont be implemented, the community is made of dicks and the devs are way too slow on developing to make it available in less than 2 years.

Edited January 3, 2014 by lipemr

[semipr0 402]

Let me just point out your entire system is about reward A/punish B.  The -whole- thing.  Not parts of it, not just that part, the -whole- thing.  Its all based around the idea of 'play the game my way or be worse off'.  All of your rewards boons, and such are built around your view of how the game should be played (especially the mental part).

 

No...its not. Its how you've chosen to understand it. It was a simple and black and white example.

 

You got hung up on that and decided the entire post was about it. Thats not my problem...its yours.

 

The root of the idea is to play the game to a complex set of parameters that yield variant and beneficial and in some cases negative results depending on how you manage them. Suffice it to say I will never use such a cut and dried and easily understandable parallel of play styles such as Hero/Bandit in my explanations here again given as single minded individuals seem to be able to discern my "sekret agenduh" simply by reading those code words.

[BlindProphet 34]

No...its not. Its how you've chosen to understand it. It was a simple and black and white example.

 

You got hung up on that and decided the entire post was about it. Thats not my problem...its yours.

 

The root of the idea is to play the game to a complex set of parameters that yield variant and beneficial and in some cases negative results depending on how you manage them. Suffice it to say I will never use such a cut and dried and easily understandable parallel of play styles such as Hero/Bandit in my explanations here again given as single minded individuals seem to be able to discern my "sekret agenduh" simply by reading those code words.

 

NO.  Not just part of it.  THE WHOLE IDEA.  Your whole concept is 'play my way or be punished'.  All of it.  Not just part.  The whole thing.  I specifically said the whole thing.  Not just that part.  Its particularly apparent in your statement that life has to have value.  And again in your whole sim person idea.  This whole concept, everything about it is about shaping the game to the way you want it to be.

[semipr0 402]

 

"DayZ needs to support who you are in relation to who you have chosen to be,"

"the way to start supporting that is to start quantifying the human experience of living in the world DayZ presents into mathematically measurable and applicable systems"

 

ENGLISH PLEASE!

 

That is English. I realize I'm a wordy bastard and I can lik tolly say thins wit way less ltrs...but its just not how I think so what you get is what comes out of my brain. I don't think in sound bytes...I think in novella. Sorry if that offends or causes cerebral hemorrhage.

[semipr0 402]

NO.  Not just part of it.  THE WHOLE IDEA.  Your whole concept is 'play my way or be punished'.  All of it.  Not just part.  The whole thing.  I specifically said the whole thing.  Not just that part.  Its particularly apparent in your statement that life has to have value.  And again in your whole sim person idea.  This whole concept, everything about it is about shaping the game to the way you want it to be.

 

Its about giving the game a shape at all. Not just the way I want it to be but a way. Tell me what shape this game has. A big piece of terrain with guns scattered around and occasional AI hazards? People killing each other for lack of anything else to do? Thats a hell of a feature set for a game thats been as popular as DayZ has been since its inception.

 

Right now we're playing the game the way Dean wants it played...we're playing it his way or we're going to be "punished" ergo, don't fucking eat and drink and you're going to fucking die. Is that an imposition on your sensibilities? Cause if not then why would a system that simply adds complexity and depth to what Dean is already doing and benefits you for managing it well...regardless of what you do....killing people or not, be an imposition on your way of playing the game?

 

I'm not proposing anything more than an expansion of what you're already dealing with, just giving a meaning to everything beyond a food and water, a meaning to your actions, a goal to achieve, something to value in your experience in the game, something to truly be sad to lose if you lose it, as compared to now where I kinda like dying cause it gives me an excuse to keep playing at the moment...which in and of itself is an direct indication that something is seriously wrong with the current dynamics, when dying is more fun than living....you haven't achieved a survival simulation.

[lipemr 160]

NO.  Not just part of it.  THE WHOLE IDEA.  Your whole concept is 'play my way or be punished'.  All of it.  Not just part.  The whole thing.  I specifically said the whole thing.  Not just that part.  Its particularly apparent in your statement that life has to have value.  And again in your whole sim person idea.  This whole concept, everything about it is about shaping the game to the way you want it to be.

 

dude do you fucking realise that the game is already punishing anyone that doesnt play deathmatch style? killing people grants you free gear, have no consequences and its the easier option always, While communicating and playing as a team only have downsides.

 

Your "play my way or get punished" is already happening, so stop crying and try to be constructive about the suggestion, even when i know that you're against it cause you're a troll or a griefer.

[soulesseye 35]

Here's the problem devs: You have made a game that is only fun when you can play with other like-minded players, but you have nothing (yet) in place to promote cooperation and community and to give the new-comer the resources to find some people to play with. I would ask that as you move forward in the dev process, you start thinking of ways to implement social interaction. Think outside the box. Multiplayer games have only begun to scratch the surface of how players interact w/one another in-game. The person who buys your game needs the ability to start it up, and find a group of people to get involved with. At the level of social interaction currently I can't see this game being successful.
 

i mean its selling copys now...but 2-3 months down the road i see a massive drop off in players just like the mod...and its due to people playing the game like its a giant open world deathmtach...rocket might as well just remove the zombies and call it arma-mmo if it continues down this path.

[dgeesio 1034]

I said it in more detail across in (yet) another related topic, but here's the TL;DR version:

 

All the time the game is full of guns ... expect to be shot.  Say goodbye to most of the guns ... say goodbye to most of the shooting.

 

Simples!

 

 

Out of interest (or not) here is my long-winded post:  http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/161100-system-to-punish-kos/page-4#entry1625170

such bs, im killing as many as normal with less guns. last night killed forty people in a first person server and alot were geared up. people who want to kill people will. regardles of what item is needed to kill people. for eg one group i saw four people with fire exstinguishers running round attacking people :lol:  it doesnt matter if there is no guns people would use bananas if they killed never mind guns.

 

as to making this a big mmo style game no thanks. i dont like wow. i dont want to play it and its franchise is old its ideas is old now. new creative ideas need implementing not rehashing old shit. thats why so many games are quickly boring people.noone wants to be different or risk being different .

 

the game does need things to do and you  already have plenty of ideas from the mod which could be done alot better.

 

Base building make this good and worth doing better than crappy epoch and make it work.

Hunting making this a big part.

mission type events. get the whole server to help or join in with rewards for doing so.

 

one idea i had on this would be that a zombie horde approaches or say in a big prision walking dead style there is great loot or people trapped in middle/inside. if you rescue the people (AI or players ) then you get rewarded but make it a challenge and that all the server can join in these missions. little speaker tannoy systems through out towns announce these events broken crackley record style B)

 

catching bandits for rewards higher rewards if taken alive,less if dead. maybe a morals value reward for doing so.

 

a skyrim type level system on learning things like craafting rope or hunting or whatever.

 

there are many ideas but you wont solve KOS or murdering its part of the game and people should stop trying to focus on that ever happening by trying to change dayz into some kind of sims. its a zombie apocolypse not meet the robinsons!

[Gerandar 212]

 

DayZ is like WoW, minus any sort of progressive evolution.

 

 

so its like WoW by being nothing like WoW? amazing.

[BlindProphet 34]

Its about giving the game a shape at all. Not just the way I want it to be but a way. Tell me what shape this game has. A big piece of terrain with guns scattered around and occasional AI hazards? People killing each other for lack of anything else to do? Thats a hell of a feature set for a game thats been as popular as DayZ has been since its inception.

 

Right now we're playing the game the way Dean wants it played...we're playing it his way or we're going to be "punished" ergo, don't fucking eat and drink and you're going to fucking die. Is that an imposition on your sensibilities? Cause if not then why would a system that simply adds complexity and depth to what Dean is already doing and benefits you for managing it well...regardless of what you do....killing people or not, be an imposition on your way of playing the game?

 

I'm not proposing anything more than an expansion of what you're already dealing with, just giving a meaning to everything beyond a food and water, a meaning to your actions, a goal to achieve, something to value in your experience in the game, something to truly be sad to lose if you lose it, as compared to now where I kinda like dying cause it gives me an excuse to keep playing at the moment...which in and of itself is an direct indication that something is seriously wrong with the current dynamics, when dying is more fun than living....you haven't achieved a survival simulation.

 

Eating, drinking, warmth, sickness, health, bleeding, wounded, death.  All of those are well defined concepts.  All of those are not things up to interpretation.  All of those things are things that are quantifiable.

 

Mental health (regardless of the cause) not so much.  how things affect affect people mentally varries.  How people learn, what they've learned, what they can learn, how fast they learn it...varries.  How people get stronger or weaker, while generally the same still varries.  How they stay in shape etc.  Again varries.

 

All of those things save for -MAYBE- the strength/conditioning aspect are very nebulous.  They're also things that you can't track.  How do you track the effect of what people say over direct chat?  How do you track the effect of being stalked over kilometers and kilometers of terrain?  Or any number of other things that have an effect on how we deal with our actions and the actions of others?  There is no system that can deal with that.  You want to quantify the subjective.

 

And you want to do this in a game in which one of the long standing ideas/rules that players have had being that 'you are going to die and loose everything don't get attached to it'.  And then when you do die, you respawn as a new character and move on and begin all over again.  You want to shift a system from being a sandbox, to a serries of bullshit tasks that one must do to fufill someones pre determined idea of how you subjectively do and learn things and deal with things.

 

OH as to what this game has?  Very little...but thats because its early alpha.  We barely have anything loot wise, the map isn't finished, the gear list isn't finished, zombie spawns aren't finished, we don't have hunting, base building or you know a bagillion other things...  Did you not read the warning?

[BlindProphet 34]

dude do you fucking realise that the game is already punishing anyone that doesnt play deathmatch style? killing people grants you free gear, have no consequences and its the easier option always, While communicating and playing as a team only have downsides.

 

Your "play my way or get punished" is already happening, so stop crying and try to be constructive about the suggestion, even when i know that you're against it cause you're a troll or a griefer.

 

So what the penalty have I paid for not killing everyone I've come across?  I'm fully kitted out, run into many people.  Circled the entire map, helped a few people out.  I got held up once.  Was actually kind of awesome.  So what penalty have I paid?

[Gerandar 212]

So what the penalty have I paid for not killing everyone I've come across?  I'm fully kitted out, run into many people.  Circled the entire map, helped a few people out.  I got held up once.  Was actually kind of awesome.  So what penalty have I paid?

 

The penalty of not playing the game the way some people want. they will bitch and moan saying there ways the only way~ get used to it.

[[email protected] 149]

I'm not sure this'd ever stop people killing on sight, however, it might make them leery of engaging for no reason. Either way, I like a lot of the suggestions and how they're geared towards individual character progression. Just those small bits of character customization (facial hair, scarring, etc.), as you said, makes you less of a cookie cutter clone and thus immerses you more in the experience.

 I appreciate this could work for others but to me personally, it's something I can completely do without and I don't think shallowness has anything to do with it if I were to reply to potential implementation of such feature.

 

Beans for OP for thinking outside of the box. I feel though that my imagination of how would the devs go around implementing the bits and pieces are rather limited, not to mention I am clueless about the capabilities of the engine. 

 

I can't seem to come up with anything on how to expand on OP's ideas as most has been said I guess but instead I thought I would try and come up with something ..well else.

 

Anyhow, IMO dayz feels like its very similar concept to what GTA games are like although obviously in few different ways. If I were to borrow any idea from it, probably one of the most fun moments I had were being chased by the police / law enforcement. Not everything went unnoticed.

 

Maybe little cheesey and certainly not a new idea but we could leave bandits do their thing and police volunteers would do theirs, chasing in game offenders, being called by walkie talkies from players and remaining witnesses?

I am sure many other volunteers would gladly supply vehicle parts or other stuff. I am not so sure about Ammo & weaponry though.

 

 

EDIT - Bandits could try to take over police vehicles and the extra ammo I guess too. There could be interesting battles for gas near gas station and so on..

 

 

 

Edited January 3, 2014 by Colonel-Wicked

[semipr0 402]

Did you not read the warning?

 

Did you not read the first part of the original post?

 

Far as quantifying the subjective, we quantify the subjective on a daily basis. You are quantifying the subjective by forming opinions about a post you read on a forum from your own point of view. Mental health can be quantified if you're completely adverse to the idea of anyone quantifying mental health you need to speak to the people at the APPI cause they've been quantifying it now for over 60 years.

 

The associated mental conditions related to extreme stress are not as subjective as you seem to think. Health conditions based on lifestyle are not as subjective as you may think.

[Jaybopper 49]

When I think of character progression I think of grinding. Grinding my fire making skill to 100 so I can make a fire in 2 seconds and without suffering 3rd degree burns.

If you put skills into DayZ how does one increase them? Whatever the answer is, it is repetition. Boring, un-immersive repetition and then when you die you start all over again.

 

I say let the players themselves evolve and become better medics, mechanics, weapon experts etc.

I'm less likely to shoot someone on sight if I think they might know how to treat my gunshot wound or fix my rifle.

I am also of course less likely to shoot on sight if I know I need to get into that hospital and it's gonna be hell without someone watching my back.

Both of these things give realistic value to a person's life.

 

Dietary requirements/optimization. Again this knowledge should lie with each player, not their character. Your character is you. They are as good at/as knowledgeable about something as you are. This makes for good immersion I think. Players can impart knowledge on each other, laying the foundations for communities. Again adding value to people's lives.

 

We talk about this humanity mechanic all the time now and again it is just un-immersive (Google came up dry with the actual word I'm looking for here so I made up "un-immersive"... apparently..).

A penalty for killing someone. You mentioned that a necessary kill would have no negative ramifications. How does the game know whether the kill/murder was necessary? Unless we are dealing with an NPC the game won't be able to referee murder accurately enough.

 

The bottom line here is things that affect my character but not me are un-immersive. They disconnect me completely and make me very aware that I am playing a game. I believe what DayZ is trying to achieve (and the reason I am so passionate about the game) is an immersive experience like no other.

It occurs to me that a critical factor of this is roleplay. The more we roleplay the more immersive the game becomes. We obviously can't force people to roleplay but trying to do so by putting in things like sanity and character progression will pull DayZ away from it's primary goal. If indeed I have that goal correct...

 

EDIT: Love the facial hair and scars idea

Edited January 3, 2014 by Jaybopper

[rn_max 202]

semipr0, go away and have a look at a real sandbox.  It is a pit full of sand with fuck all else to define it, except how the sand is manipulated.  That is the analogy with the game.  DayZ is an open world game whose creator aspires to deliver that unrefined experience.  The sandbox is not an excuse, there is pretty much all that is required, some content and a big map.  No epic tale to follow, no plot, no contrived rules.

 

"This is your story" means exactly that, there is no big secret, unless a fundamental lack of self determination is the obstacle to understanding.  The stories come from the players and how they survive, NOT from the game itself.

 

It's the zombie apocalypse and there you are, bandage and flare in pocket, thumb in arse.  Go and survive.  If you don't like a totally open scenario, there are plenty of linear, hand-holding turn-by-turns, or isometric grinders on the market.  Whatever DayZ is doing, it is doing right enough for 780,000 alpha sign-ups over Christmas.

 

Why the hell should mental health figure in the experience?  That is as ridiculous as an artificial fear system.  The players think and feel, not the controlled avatar.  "I'm scared because my in game avatar is shaking and breathing hard?"  Crap.  I'm scared when and because I'm scared by something.  Possibly when something I value is at risk ... oh like my player avatar.

 

Forget the silly and obtrusive effect, I'll tell you when I'm butt-clench scared ... when my avatar is starving, thirsty and I have to sneak through a village of infected in daylight to find sustenance ... soon ... before that other group in the distance clean everything out ... or collapse and die.  Powerfully emotive and no artificial twiddling required.  Others will consider this a tedious obstacle, but, that's their choice and their story, as they generate it by playing.

 

"Damn, I ate some rotten food to survive, now I am nauseous.  What the heck can I find to relieve the sickness?"  There's my next objective, no need for any blatant contrivance.  Now I care about my avatar.

 

Player X, however, doesn't give a hoot and kills their avatar.  Back to the city to gear up and pick fights, survival is boring.  THAT IS THEIR CHOICE.  Whether or not it seems futile, or stupid, or "contrary" to how others think it "should" be played, that is irrelevant.

 

This is a computer game full of guns, in which people enjoy, yes enjoy, shooting each other.  That social norm overrides all morality, it is only pixelated entertainment and often found to be quite cathartic at that.  So how do you compensate for that excitable and aggressive player state into a game mechanic?  It sure as hell isn't real behaviour, because this isn't real.  It's a game, for entertainment.

 

Whether that is on anyone else's agenda in the game or not, tough titty.  The mental state of players in this scenario is nothing like reality.  No matter what is manipulated.  Maybe you can undo 20 years of social programming, but it will be a lonely journey and most people will happily watch you disappear over the horizon.

 

Praise the apocalypse and pass the ammunition wins every time in the digital arena.

 

The bottom line is that there are thousands of DayZ players who DO achieve their story, without the need for any contrived crutches manipulating their game experience.  They know when they are feeling friendly, cooperative, scared, angry, immoral or just downright mean.

 

I stick to my last ... develop some imagination, don't expect the rest of us to want it artificially generated.  There are plenty of us who already have enough self determination to enjoy the game as open as it is and play out our story as we see it happen.

 

 

DayZ invites everybody ... but appeases or panders to nobody.  It is what you make of it.  Bored?  Look to yourself.

Edited January 4, 2014 by RN_Max

[semipr0 402]

semipr0, go away and have a look at a real sandbox.  It is a pit full of sand with fuck all else to define it, except how the sand is manipulated.  That is the analogy with the game.  DayZ is an open world game whose creator aspires to deliver that unrefined experience.  The sandbox is not an excuse, there is pretty much all that is required, some content and a big map.  No epic tale to follow, no plot, no contrived rules.

 

"This is your story" means exactly that, there is no big secret, unless a fundamental lack of self determination is the obstacle to understanding.  The stories come from the players and how they survive, NOT from the game itself.

 

It's the zombie apocalypse and there you are, bandage and flare in pocket, thumb in arse.  Go and survive.  If you don't like a totally open scenario, there are plenty of linear, hand-holding turn-by-turns, or isometric grinders on the market.  Whatever DayZ is doing, it is doing right enough for 780,000 alpha sign-ups over Christmas.

 

Why the hell should mental health figure in the experience?  That is as ridiculous as an artificial fear system.  The players think and feel, not the controlled avatar.  "I'm scared because my in game avatar is shaking and breathing hard?"  Crap.  I'm scared when and because I'm scared by something.  Possibly when something I value is at risk ... oh like my player avatar.

 

Forget the silly and obtrusive effect, I'll tell you when I'm butt-clench scared ... when my avatar is starving, thirsty and I have to sneak through a village of infected in daylight to find sustenance ... soon ... before that other group in the distance clean everything out ... or collapse and die.  Powerfully emotive and no artificial twiddling required.  Others will consider this a tedious obstacle, but, that's their choice and their story, as they generate it by playing.

 

"Damn, I ate some rotten food to survive, now I am nauseous.  What the heck can I find to relieve the sickness?"  There's my next objective, no need for any blatant contrivance.  Now I care about my avatar.

 

Player X, however, doesn't give a hoot and kills their avatar.  Back to the city to gear up and pick fights, survival is boring.  THAT IS THEIR CHOICE.  Whether or not it seems futile, or stupid, or "contrary" to how others think it "should" be played, that is irrelevant.

 

This is a computer game full of guns, in which people enjoy, yes enjoy, shooting each other.  That social norm overrides all morality, it is only pixelated entertainment and often found to be quite cathartic at that.  So how do you compensate for that excitable and aggressive player state into a game mechanic?  It sure as hell isn't real behaviour, because this isn't real.  It's a game, for entertainment.

 

Whether that is on anyone else's agenda in the game or not, tough titty.  The mental state of players in this scenario is nothing like reality.  No matter what is manipulated.  Maybe you can undo 20 years of social programming, but it will be a lonely journey and most people will happily watch you disappear over the horizon.

 

Praise the apocalypse and pass the ammunition wins every time in the digital arena.

 

The bottom line is that there are thousands of DayZ players who DO achieve their story, without the need for any contrived crutches manipulating their game experience.  They know when they are feeling friendly, cooperative, scared, angry, immoral or just downright mean.

 

I stick to my last ... develop some imagination, don't expect the rest of us to want it artificially generated.  There are plenty of us who already have enough self determination to enjoy the game as open as it is and play out our story as we see it happen.

 

 

DayZ invites everybody ... but appeases or panders to nobody.  It is what you make of it.  Bored?  Look to yourself.

 

Atypical responses were made in regards to similar concerns forwarded about the mod. And people did look to themselves and it required mods of the mod to actually achieve any form of actual growth for the experience.

 

My boredom is not from my lack of ability to engage myself in creative story telling for the purposes of filling the time. But if the true content of a game must come from its players in the form of adaptive story telling and player created mods simply to fill in obvious game systems gaps....then the game isn't really doing much of a job of not being boring on its own.

 

I've walked from one end of Chernarus to the other over the last couple years more times than I can count, there were great fights, great retreats, great losses, great bases, great group tactical work with my boys, lots of little bits of self made fun.

 

All I'm asking the actual DayZ game to do is actually take a stab at being a game...and not the framework for someone else to make a real game out of. Not even Bethesda is guilty of that kind of half measure design. Regardless of pretty much everything they make requiring user created fixes and improvements they do at least release a fully featured game. Is it really asking DayZ so much to actually have some features to engage the player beyond depending on the players imagination? If you ask that question about the mod, I'd say its probably asking a lot, cause...the mod was free, and we got a lot out of it for not having to pay anything (relatively at least). We paid for this, I'm kind of hoping that means that the end result will be a fully featured game.

[Scerun 227]

semipr0, go away and have a look at a real sandbox.  It is a pit full of sand with fuck all else to define it, except how the sand is manipulated.  That is the analogy with the game.  DayZ is an open world game whose creator aspires to deliver that unrefined experience.  The sandbox is not an excuse, there is pretty much all that is required, some content and a big map.  No epic tale to follow, no plot, no contrived rules.

 

"This is your story" means exactly that, there is no big secret, unless a fundamental lack of self determination is the obstacle to understanding.  The stories come from the players and how they survive, NOT from the game itself.

 

Well, I suppose, before I start, I'd suggest you take yourself away from the discussion unless you disperse your butthurt inflection. We're here, discussing. someone thinks it should be this way, and you think it shouldn't be that way.  Can you explain why you need to act so aggressive? Drop the attitude and we'll see this discussion become more than another of the typical DayZ forum threads. If you're right, you can prove it without your subtle mockery.

 

Now, "This is your story". What was your last story?  Had a cool shootout. Re-spawned, collected your loot from the body of your previous character that your Arma3-crossover leet clan protected for you. Continued more clan wars. A thrilling story. While I'm not saying that it's not a oversight entirely of the devs that the story-telling aspect of DayZ has been overlooked - but it is certainly one of those who regularly play DayZ. Unfortunately, what I see most of, are people asking for new weapons, new sniper rifles, new ways to kill the other player. This seems to be from people who expect DayZ to be a military zombie simulator, when I don't think it is. It's a survival narrative game. Supposed to be. Nothing in the mod really went any lengths to achieve that story telling aspect, and the only thing that leads me to believe there is a focus for that in the Standalone is because of the scattered notes and pens.

 

 

It's the zombie apocalypse and there you are, bandage and flare in pocket, thumb in arse.  Go and survive.  If you don't like a totally open scenario, there are plenty of linear, hand-holding turn-by-turns, or isometric grinders on the market.  Whatever DayZ is doing, it is doing right enough for 780,000 alpha sign-ups over Christmas.

 

Aside from other players with M4s, what is there really to survive from? Let me put it this way. Instead of us going to player another game - why don't you go and play the Wasteland mod on Arma 3? That's probably more what you're looking for. Aimless, psuedo-freedom deathmatches. See how fruitless that is as an argument? 

 

 

Why the hell should mental health figure in the experience?  That is as ridiculous as an artificial fear system.  The players think and feel, not the controlled avatar.  "I'm scared because my in game avatar is shaking and breathing hard?"  Crap.  I'm scared when and because I'm scared by something.  Possibly when something I value is at risk ... oh like my player avatar.

 

Forget the silly and obtrusive effect, I'll tell you when I'm butt-clench scared ... when my avatar is starving, thirsty and I have to sneak through a village of infected in daylight to find sustenance ... soon ... before that other group in the distance clean everything out ... or collapse and die.  Powerfully emotive and no artificial twiddling required.  Others will consider this a tedious obstacle, but, that's their choice and their story, as they generate it by playing.

 

"Damn, I ate some rotten food to survive, now I am nauseous.  What the heck can I find to relieve the sickness?"  There's my next objective, no need for any blatant contrivance.  Now I care about my avatar.

 

Unfortunately, DayZ is still just a game, and there is no true sense of value or connection to your avatar as you do with yourself. Frights are short-lived, and the uncertainty you face in the game is too, once you know it. Survivng the initial stages in DayZ was tricky at first, and now it is not. Once we become familiar with the game, the uncertain challenges become a cake-walk, and second-nature. There need to be system like this in place to maintain a long-term challenge for the player. Are you aware there's a 'Health' system in this game? It works alongside the 'Blood' system, and it's my conjecture that this is used to grant penalty to the sicknesses, pain and other ailments your character will face over a long time. Not all too different from mental health, I suppose. Now, you're thinking "What, my gy is dying because he's in pain? But I don't feel that pain. And besides, even if I got hit with a baseball bat, I'd be really fixated on surviving that I wouldn't even care about bruises." Isn't that just as stupid and contrived as a mental health system? Pain and discomfort can't exactly be quantified  and even less arbitrated, but it's being slapped right in there with sicknesses like your colds and flus and a bit of food poisoning, and it's being done to maintain a long-term challenge, and provide alternative veneers to survival. 

 

 Systems like this need to exist, and there need to be more of them, and they need tobe more complicated, because once the challenge of uncertainty of the game's facilities and challenges are gone, you're faced with a very easy game, otherwise. And when it's easy, people run out of things to do, and like the current state of DayZ, we all just grab guns, because there's always one challenge left. Other people. In fact, it's the only challenge there is. Should we be worried about new system being implemented to artificially increase the challenge? No. Should we be worried if they're contrived? Absolutely.  Don't mistake all new ideas for being bad.

 

 

Player X, however, doesn't give a hoot and kills their avatar.  Back to the city to gear up and pick fights, survival is boring.  THAT IS THEIR CHOICE.  Whether or not it seems futile, or stupid, or "contrary" to how others think it "should" be played, that is irrelevant.

 

 

It is absolutely their choice. But when the majority of theplayerbase are doing this, becuase there'snothing else to do, it is a problem, no? Especially when this game is meant to be more than an open-world Battlefield game, or Call of Duty, or even just an Arma3 with zombies. Most players consider survival either boring, or just far too easy to master. 

 

 

This is a computer game full of guns, in which people enjoy, yes enjoy, shooting each other.  That social norm overrides all morality, it is only pixelated entertainment and often found to be quite cathartic at that.  So how do you compensate for that excitable and aggressive player state into a game mechanic?  It sure as hell isn't real behaviour, because this isn't real.  It's a game, for entertainment.

 

As I understand it, Rocket intends for it to be an anti-game. More in the lines of a work of art, and not for the mindless entertainment. Pretentious? Perhaps. Does it prove my point? No, but it goes to show that youre simply doing what you, and others like you, accuse opposition of doing - forcing their vision of the game onto others because IMRIGHTUREWRONG.

 

Now, the reason we're all shooting each other isn't because we only find entertainment in shooting one another's virtual avatars. It's because the game does very little, at this point, to facilitate anything else. ANYTHING. Yes, it's alpha. It's alpha as fuck. And I'll once again say it. the only reason I say what I say, is because it feels like it could have been over-looked, seeing as how the mod developed. 

 

 

Whether that is on anyone else's agenda in the game or not, tough titty.  The mental state of players in this scenario is nothing like reality.  No matter what is manipulated.  Maybe you can undo 20 years of social programming, but it will be a lonely journey and most people will happily watch you disappear over the horizon.

 

Praise the apocalypse and pass the ammunition wins every time in the digital arena.

 

 

Not a result of social-programming. Just a result of a lack of things to do in a game that makes it fun to shoot other people.

 

 

The bottom line is that there are thousands of DayZ players who DO achieve their story, without the need for any contrived crutches manipulating their game experience.  They know when they are feeling friendly, cooperative, scared, angry, immoral or just downright mean.

 

Your defiance at adding more dynamic features that change the landscape of survival in a survival game bear no logical grounds. Or not even adding the, just considering that there could be a greater intricacy, and that it could be an improvement to your old ways.  Unfortunately, the feelings of the game intially invokes are son drowned out by the competitive nature the game has taken, arena-style. All those feelings that made the game a popular success intially have been lost, because they're all based on the uncertainty you felt when you played first. The only thing that remains a thrill, is shooting other players, which is why the game is nothing more than a great big deathmatch. Is there anything wrong with opening up more avenues to give players, like myself, a way to enjoy the game that makes co-operation an intriguing experience, rather than a statement against the status-quo, because edgy. Or ways to allow a more natural and immersive way to tell a story in the game's environment?

 

 

I stick to my last ... develop some imagination, don't expect the rest of us to want it artificially generated.  There are plenty of us who already have enough self determination to enjoy the game as open as it is and play out our story as we see it happen.

 

 

DayZ invites everybody ... but appeases or panders to nobody.  It is what you make of it.  Bored?  Look to yourself.

 

Unfortunately, if the game is about telling a story, and survival, and I have to to out-of-game means to achieve that, then the game has failed its goals. I see no reason why you oppose opening up more avenues that wouldn't take away from the thrilling PvP aspect of the game.

 

Finally, I'm not asking for the game to pander to me, but pander to the necessary implementations that achieve its role of telling a story, and a dynamic, emergent one at that. And survival. It's the same old shit - went to the airfield, got in firefight. Respawned. Picked gear back up. Went to Cherno for some beans. Had firefight. Went back to airfield. Had firefight. Got killed. Lost gear. Server hopped til I found Mosin. Went to airfield. Had firefight with clan. Won. Went to Cherno for beans. Had firefight. So on, and so forth.

 

it's sure as hell fun getting in firefight, even as buggy as it can be, but I see no reason why we shouldn't have to experience survival in greater quantities, and from other sources - and face new challenges.

Edited January 4, 2014 by Scerun

[soulesseye 35]

another good post that needs to stay at the top and needs a sticky

[Furtherado 100]

I haven`t read all of the replies, but have read most of them.

 

Why would anyone think that adding "stats" or more "individuality" would add incentive to NOT shooting anyone?

If anyone has read the bandit forums on the mod and now in the SA, there seems to be a consensus that annoying and griefing other players gives them their kicks, and is a reason why they spawn-kill and stuff like that. 

 

Well, if one of these bandit types sees a grizzly, scarred, muscular survivor on his right wielding nothing but a first aid kit and engineering gear, and a close-shaven, fresh survivor with a rifle on his left, who will he shoot? The guy with the rifle is the only real threat to him, but the grizzled guy who has probably spent several days developing his character would get alot madder and demotivated by dying. Hypothetically, lets say our bastard bandit only has one bullet and hes a really good shot, he would ALWAYS shoot the developed character just because he knows there`s a chance some guy behind a monitor somewhere will throw a rage fit, whilst the fresh rifle guy probably wouldn`t give two shits.

 

I like the idea, but implement it next to having hospitals and military bases infested with zombies aka toned down Left 4 Dead 2 zombie assaults from all sides, or cooperated efforts like player city-building and starting up railroads/planes. Also implement more realistic guns, as in degrading over time, and requiring oiling etc, this way you couldn`t just snipe around all day, you`d have to collect or search for gun maintenance supplies etc.

 

You`d still have your bastards, but everyone would hate them, and it would give incentive to hunt down players who kept sniping while 10 others tried to build a three-story apartment block or raid a hospital to get antibiotics and medical supplies (something that would be near impossible alone).     

[Bakercompany86 347]

Do we need to find something for bandits to do other than troll the coast?  Yes.

 

Do we need to force them to do this by punishing them with something like insanity?  No.

 

 

No matter what you do, what insanity system you implement, some people will always be trolls.  If you implement insanity, then they'll just have their buddies kill them and protect them until they can come recover their gear.  Wash, rinse, repeat.

 

Of course if others would stop feeding them kills at Balota, we wouldn't really have this issue.  I find people in 3 areas along the coast that are armed and hostile, Cherno, Elektro, and Balota.  It's not hard to figure out.  Stay away from these areas until you're ready to hunt the bandits.

[[email protected] 149]

another good post that needs to stay at the top and needs a sticky

 

I agree some well worded posts..however I wish we could get less arguments and more ideas

[rickyspanish 158]

Nice post and I agree completely, until there's some meaning to the player character and a reason to keep him alive people will care more about there gear, and there character just becomes a vessel for that gear. I really like the sanity aspect too but could be difficult to implement, at the moment there's no negatives to killing someone but irl it could have a serious effect on your mental stability. I really hate the idea of skill trees and that sort of thing, but a system of the more you do something the better and more successful you are at it could be cool and add some value to a character.