The only solution for DayZ: Simulation.

[SalamanderAnder (DayZ) 1747]

 

- Love the vehicle stuff - would like to see a 'carrying heavy object' animation - can't slot big items like wheels or other major vehicle components into your inventory (as in the mod) but makes you walk slow and have to shoulder your weapons. Also makes me think that carrying a duffel bag in a similar way for extra carrying capacity would be a good idea - in a group you could have a designated pack mule when you raid a military base to come away with more goodies (but who has to drop the bag and get his weapons out or just plain run for it in a fire fight).

- Definitely port Take-on-helicopters or something similar.

- I like the level of complexity you want to bring to the medical system but a few bits are off (e.g. I'd be scared sh*tless to remove a bullet from abdominal wound without visualising the abdomen first, and in non-sterile conditions you're in trouble regardless). A lot of wounds to major organs just wouldn't be fixable in a world like DayZ (unless you came across a trained surgeon, a theatre team and a lot of appropriate kit). However, it would be an interesting dynamic to have someone in your group with a potentially fatal wound that just takes a long time to knock them off. 

 

 

I agree. Look, let's admit. In the real world, a gunshot to the belly = death. But this is a game, and therefore it's a bit unfair to not offer ways around it. I'm not saying these are the most "realistic" of options, but I think the right balance between realism and game is the key. I know that surgery isn't a small thing in real life. But the dice rolls could be tweaked to make it more realistic. Let's say you get intestinal damage, that should be an organ that has a very high chance of killing you. But a liver on the other hand, is surprisingly resilient. Livers can even be cut in half and will grow back to their full size. I just think it would be more interesting than "oh, I bandaged, therefore I'm okay." I think of The Last of Us, (spoilers>) When Joel get's impaled.

 

This is just a way to tell more compelling stories. Nobody wants to face the idea of cutting into another person and removing a bullet, trying to save their life. And let's be honest, a lot of people are just going to choose to hit "Respawn" or have their buddy shoot them in the head. It doesn't mean that the option shouldn't be there. I mean, if he's gonna die anyway, you might as well try and do whatever you can to save his life, right?

Edited January 1, 2014 by SalamanderAnder

[liquidcactus 719]

Something I find extremely lacking in the game is the extreme dependency we have on looting. Sure enough this will be diminished when hunting and gathering is put into motion. May I suggest "primitive" skills be added to your hunting and gathering section? 

 

For example, there are people in the wilderness who can manage to survive using only what nature provides. Knapping, for example, is a way for someone to create their own tools and weapons out of obsidian, flint, etc. Ideas of this nature would really bring the survivalist aspect of the game into fruition. I have seen a trend of players who really wish to keep away from large cities and only venture into them when they need to for medical supplies or the like. 

 

Being able to create your own arrowheads or knives/skinning tools in the wilderness would be great. Overall though, I would really like nature to offer more rather than cities being the main concentration of supplies be it weapons or tools. What do you guys think? 

 

 

Absoloutly.

[liquidcactus 719]

I lost you when you said 'surgery isn't a skill'

 

Sorry but...really?

 

OK, so because the game has already simplified surgery, vehicle mechanics and beyond, someone just has to learn a simple ABC for each task and they're automatically able to perform any feat under the sun?

 

Unless it requires you to learn absolutely everything necessary to a real life degree, I see absolutely NO reason that your character should be able to perform such deeds just because you've learned a simple order of commands to do so.

 

Sterilise your tools before an operation...is that it with your consideration of what medical procedures entail? What about find out which organ(s) might be affected, check out which veins, arterys and major organs are in the vicinity of the area you're about to dig sharp needles into? Possibly consider any allergies of the patient before administering antibiotics? Jesus, are you master of the world because you learned an ABC of operations from a video game? If that's the case I'm inclined to suggest rocket veto continuation in case you decide to become a brain surgeon based on what you learned here...

 

Really... there's a LOT more to flying a helicopter than the takeoff procedure. There's a lot more to performing an operation than disinfecting your tools before you start. If you want simulation, I want you to learn all the shit a surgeon has to actually learn and all the shit a heli pilot has to know to avoid going into a spiral of doom...

 

Please if the zombie apocalypse happens, don't perform surgery on me or anyone I know and don't fly an aircraft within 100km of me.

haha wow this ones a bit of a FRUITLOOP

[Roshi (DayZ) 397]

I agree. Look, let's admit. In the real wound, a gunshot to the belly = death. But this is a game, and therefore it's a bit unfair to not offer ways around it. I'm not saying these are the most "realistic" of options, but I think the right balance between realism and game is the key. I know that surgery isn't a small thing in real life. But the dice rolls could be tweaked to make it more realistic. Let's say you get intestinal damage, that should be an organ that has a very high chance of killing you. But a liver on the other hand, is surprisingly resilient. Livers can even be cut in half and will grow back to their full size. I just think it would be more interesting than "oh, I bandaged, therefore I'm okay." I think of The Last of Us, (spoilers) When Joel get's impaled.

This is just a way to tell more compelling stories. Nobody wants to face the idea of cutting into another person and removing a bullet, trying to save their life. And let's be honest, a lot of people are just going to choose to hit "Respawn" or have their buddy shoot them in the head. It doesn't mean that the option shouldn't be there. I mean, if he's gonna die anyway, you might as well try and do whatever you can to save his life, right?

I hear you but I think if you want to add a complex medical system, it should err on the side of authenticity - if the features are too difficult to do and maintain a degree of realism then maybe best to let em go. But that still leaves a lot of scope for some kind of minor surgery - I liked the bullet removal idea for example (and suturing etc).

Ps regarding the liver - yep sure the liver is (one of) the only organs capable of regenerating but only if the patient is stablised enough for it to regenerate. They bleed a ton and as far as I know aren't that easy to fix. So I'd rather for the purposes of the game that a gut shot was generally fatal (immediately or after a delay). But again - good ideas.

Edited January 1, 2014 by Roshi

[irichey25 17]

I really like the car idea, a lot. It's a good idea. Carrying an entire engine along with you did seem a bit ridiculous. For the effect of the speed and such, as long as there is an obvious way to check what is wrong, like popping the front and pressing the inventory button and checking the parts conditions.  I'm all up for that. I don't want to have to learn Mechanical Engineering just to fix a virtual car.

 

Same thing with Helicopters, as for the books. As long as I don't have to stop dead in my tracks to read a 20 page book about flying, I'm fine, but I'm not a big fan of air vehicles much. As long as they are civilian Helicopters, no giant AC-130s or no fast moving Su-27's. Just civilian helicopters.

 

I'm iffy on the organs things, I don't want to be shot in a certain area and be fucked with no chance of surviving. Morphine is a good idea, bullets in the body is a good idea as long as it's that simple and no having to go to Med. School. I'm fine with the unconscious thing. LOVE the defib. idea. Once again don't want to have the "if you are shot  you're fucked" type of thing going on. I like resistance a lot.

 

Fine with the animal speed thing. Fine with traps, all though, would seem a bit useless until base building is added. Dangerous animals is a +++.

Wouldn't mind the cold idea, as long as it's not "if you don't have a base set up SUCKS FOR YOU!", yes good idea, as long as one zombie can't destroy a giant wood wall I'm fine with that, as long as the matienence  isn't to annoying to the point where it's "I'm going to go on a loot run for some food" *ten minutes later* "What the fuck happened to my base?". As long as there is some alternative I'm fine with that, I don't to in order to build a small wooden shack with a shelf or something have to have another player with me. Perhaps putting materials into cars?

I think they should stick with the hole "One zombie isn't a problem, but a group is." I severely hate the idea of running fast zombies. There should be lot's of zombies. yes. Tearing down fortifications, like I said, as long as one can't take down an entire fort I'm fine with that. As long as it's just like one zombies and not six I'm fine, and as long as it's not jump scaresc type of thing. 

 

Large game world: YES

[Steak and Potatoes 13480]

Ander strikes again, by far one of the best reads in a while.  I agree with pretty much everything as a whole the implementation of all the above could add more depth and context your play. :beans:

[Lancer 2-2 14]

Excellent stuff... but only question is.... can the engine handle it?

 

 

Granted DayZ is meant to be this "anti-game" but compared to games like Dead Rising 3, Witcher 3, Planetside 2 - thinking zombie, open world and massive multiplayer... DayZ is using an extremely out-of-date engine despite upgrades and I wonder how it will be able to hold itself up.

 

Can all of these features be implemented into DayZ without bloating it? Can the engine handle it all?

 

I too would love to see expansions to the player world including a stretch of sea leading up to an island and expanded in-land areas, but I have to wonder if the engine can handle that..... don't forget that we only currently have 40 player servers which is enough to make the current map feel empty at times... if you escaped the KoS fest on the coast and will very minimal zombies the game struggles. Yes it is Alpha and these "optimizations" have not occurred yet but don't forget this would be adding lots of features, lots of items and sub-items, inventories and sub-inventories, a lot more world of render along with loot and zombies to handle and then a larger server player population to live in this world... That is my concern, we find the ArmA engine just cannot cut it.

[wgaf 251]

I really like your ideas and hope something along those lines is implemented. 

 

We relish the chance to do much more complicated medical experimentation to explore a health system like the one you describe. 

[Bukethead 96]

The solution to KoS mentality is not to punish killers. It's giving them something else to do, and this is it.

 

 

 

The problem with this is there are tons of people who have decided all the other complications of DayZ aren't worth their time, and instead being an asshole and killing people for no good reason is more fun than tracking down a spare engine for your vehicle. I would liken this to thinking that a kid refusing to do his homework and instead play video games, can be remedied by giving the kid more homework. 

 

The realistic aspect of killing someone is a conscience, a feeling of remorse, etc. I honestly don't think there's a way to program that into a game and invoke even similar feelings in someone who takes pleasure in KoSing, or even someone who does it out of fear of being KoS'd themselves.

 

As you stated, bringing back the old humanity system and etc isn't the way to fix the problem, I'm merely suggesting that the problem can't be fixed no matter what you do.

 

The things you have suggested are great and would probably make the game more interesting and entertaining for those who play the game that way, but as a solution to KoSing? Probably not.

Edited January 1, 2014 by Bukethead

[Ken Bean 175]

@op

I like the simulaion idea very much but to me it collides with the current popular play stile which seems just to be killing everything. Leading to that a survivor will have way more to do, maybe repairing a car over days and weeks only to get everything wasted in a blink of the eye of an on sight killer or otherwhise. He will enjoy your stuff, hard work and will take a refreshing and powering bath in your anger.

Nope, as much as I like the idea, I'm not going through this, just to enjoy it 5 minutes until it got stolen or damaged otherwhise.

Repaired way too much helis only to lose them. You can't hide shit in this game.

Edited January 1, 2014 by Ken Bean

[DayZoey 110]

I will admit that it does seem like a good entendre of ideas to implement (admittedly I only skimmed, cruising the forums before bed) but I can't purport to reading the title of the thread without a chuckle. It seems everyone has the one perfect solution to fix the game FOREVAR and end all the troubles it has ever and will ever have.

 

DayZ is an imperfect game, therefore in my opinion there will never be a perfect solution; only close concessions and middle grounds.

[law1977 17]

Good post interesting ideas and suggestions nice to read a good post looking to the future of the game, here are my thoughts..

Vehicles

Quality ideas like the way you have to scavenge for parts, also feel you need to have the car in a garage or at least undercover so you can work on the vehicle. Like the idea of having to clear a town of zombies and have guards on standby keeping an eye out due to the noise you make. Then you get all ya parts in a tool box and set to work fixing and maintaining your car.

Construction

I had an idea ages ago I belived I posted it to to have underground bunker system like the Vietcong had:-

1. Realistic in the game due to very little heavy machinery was used just back breaking toil.

2. Can grow and grow, as your party gets bigger and you get a small health bonus if you quit the game there due to being sheltered, warm etc..

3. Cuts down on the need for things added to the map, can just be a different colour to show its fake. Then when you enter u go into an instance server away from main server.

4. Has lots of possibilities then to have pits to trap wildlife or the odd player.

Picture it you are going through the fields and spot a bit of suspicious looking grass, you look closely and it says enter underground bunker. You arm your pistol with flashlight attachment and go in looking to nick peoples loot, with your trusty pistol at the read u venture into the dark, having to crawl along checking for booby traps. You reach a small room finding some of the people who made the bunker you have the drop in them and you order them to supply you with some goodies...

You could have really tense encounters in these bunkers and you can add your own touches to your bunker, gun racks, ammo boxes, stored food etc..

[Isaaq 72]

Didn't read it all yet because I'm on my phone, will do later.

But when people talk about end game, they mean stuff to do once you're fully kitted up, which is very easy at the moment. They want features like bases and storage and vehicles for this time - the end game.

[hypergolem 39]

Love all your ideas and I agree the more realistic and simulative the game is, the better gameplay we will have... but unfortunately we are talking about BI here... where they still cant manage preventing zeds to go through walls...

[serenityrick 218]

I lost you when you said 'surgery isn't a skill'

 

Sorry but...really?

 

OK, so because the game has already simplified surgery, vehicle mechanics and beyond, someone just has to learn a simple ABC for each task and they're automatically able to perform any feat under the sun?

 

Unless it requires you to learn absolutely everything necessary to a real life degree, I see absolutely NO reason that your character should be able to perform such deeds just because you've learned a simple order of commands to do so.

 

Sterilise your tools before an operation...is that it with your consideration of what medical procedures entail? What about find out which organ(s) might be affected, check out which veins, arterys and major organs are in the vicinity of the area you're about to dig sharp needles into? Possibly consider any allergies of the patient before administering antibiotics? Jesus, are you master of the world because you learned an ABC of operations from a video game? If that's the case I'm inclined to suggest rocket veto continuation in case you decide to become a brain surgeon based on what you learned here...

 

Really... there's a LOT more to flying a helicopter than the takeoff procedure. There's a lot more to performing an operation than disinfecting your tools before you start. If you want simulation, I want you to learn all the shit a surgeon has to actually learn and all the shit a heli pilot has to know to avoid going into a spiral of doom...

 

Please if the zombie apocalypse happens, don't perform surgery on me or anyone I know and don't fly an aircraft within 100km of me.

 

That's all painfully obvious though.. The game isn't/won't be a surgery simulator but it also shouldn't be a context menu drop of "perform surgery". I get that the latter is basically what his idea is but at least having to worry about sterilizing tools and using the right tools would make it a bit more in depth.

 

For instance.. perhaps scalpels will be an item in the game.. but lets say you're out in the field and your friend was shot.. you two retreat to safety but he's getting the telltale symptoms of some internal organ damage. Now.. you don't have a scalpel but you take the bayonet off your gun and disenfect it in order to perform emergency surgery. There's a VERY good chance he'll die as using a freakin' bayonet would carry a much higher failure rate as opposed to using a scalpel.. you have that option.. and THAT kind of stuff makes it interesting. You'd have some very good stories. "We retreated to a barn and he was fading fast.. I removed my bayonet and performed emergency surgery.. he passed out from the pain but the surgery was successful!". Yeah you're not necessarily doing anything difficult especially when compared to the actual profession of SURGEON but it provides a dynamic. Will your friend survive long enough for you to run/drive to a hospital to find a scalpel to have a greater chance of saving his life? Or do you perform the surgery now and hope for the best?

 

That would be awesome.

 

EDIT - with that said.. performing surgery might be a little much for the game in terms of realism. But again, it's about authenticity and not necessarily realism. The average person isn't going to be told of their friend's symptoms and know "Ah! You have a collapsed lung! I know exactly what to do!"

However, removing bullets is something more realistic that I think anyone could theoretically do.. and having the option to remove them via bayonet/scalpel/pliers/knife/etc would be awesome and just make the game a bit more interesting

Edited January 1, 2014 by serenityrick

[serenityrick 218]

Excellent stuff... but only question is.... can the engine handle it?

 

 

Granted DayZ is meant to be this "anti-game" but compared to games like Dead Rising 3, Witcher 3, Planetside 2 - thinking zombie, open world and massive multiplayer... DayZ is using an extremely out-of-date engine despite upgrades and I wonder how it will be able to hold itself up.

 

Can all of these features be implemented into DayZ without bloating it? Can the engine handle it all?

 

I too would love to see expansions to the player world including a stretch of sea leading up to an island and expanded in-land areas, but I have to wonder if the engine can handle that..... don't forget that we only currently have 40 player servers which is enough to make the current map feel empty at times... if you escaped the KoS fest on the coast and will very minimal zombies the game struggles. Yes it is Alpha and these "optimizations" have not occurred yet but don't forget this would be adding lots of features, lots of items and sub-items, inventories and sub-inventories, a lot more world of render along with loot and zombies to handle and then a larger server player population to live in this world... That is my concern, we find the ArmA engine just cannot cut it.

 

I don't see why not.. most of the ideas are just building on the crafting/degradation/loot system that's currently in place. Other than having the objects in the game, there's nothing intensive (server or client) about fixing up cars or removing bullets from wounded players. 

I can't speak for the whole expanded map idea but most if not all of the OP's other ideas just involved expanding the systems that are currently in place if I remember correctly (I read the OP last night so I could be missing something)

 

 

Love all your ideas and I agree the more realistic and simulative the game is, the better gameplay we will have... but unfortunately we are talking about BI here... where they still cant manage preventing zeds to go through walls...

 

 

That's because they are currently using the basic AI from ArmA... which is point-to-point. In other words.. it doesn't have AI. It's basically "Does Zombie1 see PlayerX?" - Yes -> "Zombie1 runs at PlayerX". Collision and proper AI aren't implemented yet but Rocket has stated that he's personally working on that part of the game (I believe)

Edited January 1, 2014 by serenityrick

[floj 393]

Lol um, okay. Pointless argument is pointless. There's no reason to be a fucking dick, or to make assumptions about my "ego," or whatever. Yep, I came up with some ideas about a video game, I must think I'm the "master of the world."  B) WOOO MASTER OF THE WORLD! (Guitar solo)

 

Propose a better system then. Oversimplification is boring, and boring is not what this game needs. Honestly the ToH system is a very good amount of simulation for something like taking off a helicopter. Even someone who is skilled at flying a chopper has to startup a helicopter the same way every time. Again, surgery is a real life skill yes, but it's not a "skill" in terms of the game as in "Oh boy I got xp points, now I can level up my surgery skill!" Please. In the apocalypse, doctors would be in short supply, field medicine would be the only way to keep your friends alive. Are you saying that applying a BANDAGE to fix BULLET WOUNDS is more realistic or requires more "skill" than the surgery system proposed? I even said, a dice roll would determine your chances of succeeding or failing at a surgical task, based on the tools you have, and the condition of the patient. Looks like you're actually just splitting hairs to prove your argument, which sounds like a watered-down system which is far less authentic than a real life situation. Obviously we can't simulate every vein and artery in the body, but this is more realistic than "Oh I wrapped my shot torso in a rag, now I'm all better!" lol.

 

And I don't get this ABC thing you keep coming back at me with. Almost every task in life can be boiled down to ABC. How to put on shoes: A: grab shoe. B: Put shoe on. C: Tie laces.

 

What's the difference? The operations, the tools required, this is all in the vein of DayZ. Look at the mod. A: Get engine part. B: Get toolbox. C: Fix entire car engine and drive away. So what are you saying here, exactly? Are you just trolling or do you have something constructive to provide or....?

 

 

^^ Apologies, I was about 4 bottles of wine down when I was writing last night

 

note to self: must not visit forums after NYE celebrations lol

 

 

The thing I disagree with is that you want all this added depth, which is great, I think everyone wants that BUT then you counter that by suggesting that every single survivor can do anything in the game just by reading a wiki. I think there should be base skills, acquired skills and specialist skills decided at spawn. Then you have to level up both your gear and your skillsets throughout the game, the skills being learned either by finding books or by meeting an avatar that already has the skill :)

Edited January 1, 2014 by phlOgistOn

[Jaybopper 49]

My two cents!

 

First off love the post, definitely a lot of stuff there that are exactly what I envisioned DayZ to be about.

 

I want to say something about skills as they have been mentioned here.

I started a post recently about the books in the game and how they should be our go-to source for information about treating medical conditions. This easily extends to your ideas on vehicle maintenance. The point being that we avoid breaking immersion by getting how-to information in game rather then alt-tabbing and using Google.

In relation to this the idea is floating around that each new character would need to obtain the knowledge. In other words each time you started a new character, that character would not be able to treat medical conditions or repair/pilot vehicles until they had read the necessary books.

I very much want to voice my opposition to this! Since we cannot erase our own knowledge about the game, all that happens here is you have an extensive and mundane to-do list each time you start a new character. For example:

 

1. Take off shirt

2. Tear into rags

3. Place battery in torch

4. Find medical book and read it

5. Find vehicle repair book and read it

 

This is just shit and boring let's be honest you'd get to the end of the list, possibly taking you a good hour if you're lucky and then get shot and have to start all over again. Dunno about you guys but I'd fuckin uninstall.

 

Something else I'd like to see the OP address is something I have kind of brought up here and it was mentioned by Ken Bean (and possibly others I don't mean to be ignorant).

The ideas here are great but without a map that's maybe ten times bigger than the current map, I feel that are not suited to an MMO. As Ken Bean said:

 

Nope, as much as I like the idea, I'm not going through this, just to enjoy it 5 minutes until it got stolen or damaged otherwhise.

 

[floj 393]

This could be ameliorated by having specialists at the start and working in a group - one of you spawn as a medic, one of you spawn as a mechanic. BAM job done without having to find the books. The books could be a way for solo survivors (who probably want to take more than an hour to reach the endgame anyways) to skill up on their own without risking player interaction with strangers

 

 

EDIT: Just had to quickly find the thread http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/158954-the-value-of-a-character/

 

Basically merge the ideas from that one and this one together = win?

Edited January 1, 2014 by phlOgistOn

[Daemonkid 493]

About the surgery. In real life, surgeons have a handbook in the room at all times. Surgery does take skill, but it is also an ABC check list kind of thing. Most surgeons think they are above using the handbook, and that's how you end up with a scalpel in your gut.

[seifeler 52]

Great ideas!!!

[Tizzle 90]

Wow

Can I say that this was the longest thread I've read in a while, but it was worth it. You've obviously put a lot of thought into these ideas, and I definitely want to see some, of not all, of these features eventually implemented

[Karmaterror 982]

Liked it all, months worth of development right there. Was thinking maybe the medical stuff, like the dice rolls for repairing an organ, could become more favourable toward success the more times you successfully do it. Maybe also a slight speed gain aswell. So like with building resistance to infection, it would be another incentive to survive longer.

 

Might also make teams designate there "medic", make them perform all the surgery, and get good at it. Then in combat another group could target who they think the medic is to hurt the other teams chances :) 

[hombrecz 832]

Whoever did read the whole 1st post, deserves my beans, or kick in the nuts!

 

p.s. I'm fine with being able to carry the whole engine in my backpack...it's frikkin game after all. They could introduce weight / stamina system to penalise for carrying heavy stuff though.

Edited January 1, 2014 by Hombre

[Jaybopper 49]

This could be ameliorated by having specialists at the start and working in a group - one of you spawn as a medic, one of you spawn as a mechanic. BAM job done without having to find the books. The books could be a way for solo survivors (who probably want to take more than an hour to reach the endgame anyways) to skill up on their own without risking player interaction with strangers

 

 

Isn't this basically removing content as a way of dealing with issues with said content..?

 

The class system is just... unrealistic and it ruins it a bit for me personally.. The game as it starts right now is perfect. Customize your character if you want change their gender and whatever but otherwise you are just some person in a zombie apocalypse, good luck..

 

Beautiful :)

Edited January 1, 2014 by Jaybopper