Combatlogging, what it is, and how to prevent it

[phoboss 224]

i like the idea of 30 seconds for the  logout timer  and 2 minutes a ghost of urself sits in its place after you have logged out and anybody that would  alt+f4 to get around the timer  should be instantly killed .

That would not work, because that would also kill people that have a legitimate disconnect because of network fuckup.

[ibKabob 2]

Ok first let me say that I never actually said that I like the public hive. I simply stated to benefits of it. As soon as the game is at a state where me and my friends decided it's worth it, we will be setting up our own (private hive) server. Because we believe the pros outweigh the cons. 

So no, I do not like the public hive very much.

 

Secondly you just proved my point that you did not understand my idea. I stated several times now that my solution makes ghosting IMPOSSIBLE! You can not go back to the server you last played on as soon as you switch to a new one.  So you can server hop (to a certain degree), but if you go from server A to server B, in order to change position and ghost someone, once you joined server B, you cannot go back to Server A for 15 minutes. Good luck ghosting someone with a 15 minute delay.

 

When I was playing the MOD, I had a network of stashes between servers. Sometimes I moved stuff between them. That makes 15 minutes timers between returning to servers eliminate that likelihood, which would suck especially if the admin turned out to be an ass or the server turned out to be flaky. I will admit that I missed that detail even though I did read your post a few times and agree that ghosting would be far more unlikely. Though it can still happen, as I have experienced snipers that sit too long, not impossible. 

 

If you were to move (when you move to a private hive) would your server allow new (to the server) players come in with a DMR (they would be well positioned too)? Or, would you see the merits of restricting the movement of the DMR into the server?  Come on... come on..... I too would love to see this game get better.

 

  All else aside, this problem is well known by the developers and the players.....I 'm here thinking outside the box.  Timers have and are used and they create and solve problems, so too would guns being specific to server control. Do you see any merits to my idea?.  Everyone knows about timers already... is my idea so unoriginal that it isn't even worthy of thought or discussion?  Can you poke holes in my solution?  I see holes in the timer solution... namely that it doesn't adress some of the other problems that hopping creates, and I haven't totally disagreed with you.  Perhaps my solution isn't as hot as I think it is....sort of like your timer solution.

[phoboss 224]

You would have to wait 30 minutes before the timer of 15 minutes gets reset ;) thats also in my original post. But sure every system can be exploited. There's no denying that. And also I like your out of the box kind of thinking regarding this matter, you also have to think about if people would accept it. And that is something I highly doubt. Players will not accept "checking their weapons at the door" as you call it. 

 

And regarding your question with the DMR on our server, I'm not quite sure I understand. It will be a private hive server, so you can't be new and already have a DMR. On your first connect you will be a fresh spawn at the beach like everyone else. 

Why we choose to run a private hive is simple. We have complete control over the server. We have no ghosting, no hopping and combat logging will be significantly reduced as well. We can take action if we suspect cheating and in a worst case scenario we could rollback the server. Also we don't have to deal with shitty admins doing what they want or accept stuff like "donater weapons". 

[aMAZing2 1]

Its so early in development processes im not to worried about it... YET!!! Hah. As u said im sure the devs are on it or will be... I think making the military bases and airports, Non-loggable areas, in or out. And if you dc or force log in the area.. toon should be left in game for an alotted time and ported out of the zone if still alive to a somewhat close area out of the zone.. just saying ;p

[ibKabob 2]

Well we have come to my point then.  When one joins a private hive server not only do they "check their guns at the door" they check everything at the door, even position is reset.  If you don't understand what it is I'm proposing, just think, gun=vehicle, and servers can turn this on or off, their preference. Other aspects of the public hive remain intact.  Guns stay with the server.  This marries you to it, but you can still have multiple 'wives' ;-) through stash tent vehicle network!

Edited January 18, 2014 by ibKabob

[ibKabob 2]

Its so early in development processes im not to worried about it... YET!!! Hah. As u said im sure the devs are on it or will be... I think making the military bases and airports, Non-loggable areas, in or out. And if you dc or force log in the area.. toon should be left in game for an alotted time and ported out of the zone if still alive to a somewhat close area out of the zone.. just saying ;p

 

The MOD has been around for sometime (years?) and these problem still persist. One of the servers I frequented had a logout timer ( I don't remember if they all did...so many builds). Another server you couldn't logout properly because of a glitch and had to alt+f4 in order to leave.  But I believe that there will zones and timers.  My checking weapons idea won't likely happen and if you hate hoppers you will have to go to private hive servers and stay there.

[phoboss 224]

Well we have come to my point then.  When one joins a private hive server not only do they "check their guns at the door" they check everything at the door, even position is reset.  If you don't understand what it is I'm proposing, just think, gun=vehicle, and servers can turn this on or off, their preference. Other aspects of the public hive remain intact.  Guns stay with the server.  This marries you to it, but you can still have multiple 'wives' ;-) through stash tent vehicle network!

I still don't get it. 

 

I have a private hive server

I first join the server

I gather some loot incl. a weapon

I leave to take a break

I come back to the server and now I have no weapon?

[ibKabob 2]

I still don't get it. 

 

I have a private hive server

I first join the server

I gather some loot incl. a weapon

I leave to take a break

I come back to the server and now I have no weapon?

1.

you have a private hive server

you first join server on beach

you gather loot incl. a weapon

you leave take a sh$t

you come back to the server and still have your weapon

 

 

2.

you have a private hive server

you first join server on beach

you gather loot incl. a weapon

you leave take a sh$t

you join another private hive server and you start on the beach again

 

3.

you enter a public hive server with gun control

you gather loot incl. a weapon

you leave to eat dinner

you come back to the same server (no character state change) and still have all your loot incl. weapon

 

4.

 

you enter a public hive server with gun control

you gather loot incl. a weapon

you leave to eat dinner

you enter another server with gun control (your new or you were here before but state has changed) and still have all your loot but not your guns, (perhaps melee weapons are allowed depends on server)

 

5.  (Current way)

 

you enter a public hive server

you gather loot incl. a weapon

you leave to eat dinner

you enter another server and still have all your loot.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Private hives already eliminate the problem so there is no need to change anything about it.  I am strictly thinking about how to make the most from a public hive and eliminate deadly hoppers.

[Lady Kyrah 1110]

WHat about keeping the character ingame for 30 minutes regardless of the logout conditions? Why go into so much trouble to setup different timers, just use the same for everyone, in any scenario.

[phoboss 224]

WHat about keeping the character ingame for 30 minutes regardless of the logout conditions? Why go into so much trouble to setup different timers, just use the same for everyone, in any scenario.

30 minutes? You're joking right? You'd be dead 90% of the time, the next time you want to play. Someone will eventually stumble over you every time. 

 

@ ibKabob

 

ah got it now. Yeah well, like I said, I don't think people would be open to such a change. In the end I don't really care, private hive fixes pretty much all the problems regarding this issue. 

[ibKabob 2]

@ ibKabob

 

ah got it now. Yeah well, like I said, I don't think people would be open to such a change. In the end I don't really care, private hive fixes pretty much all the problems regarding this issue. 

Its true that I don't know whether other players would like what I propose. I am suggesting that the server admins decide on what type of server they will run. Speaking for myself, I would join these servers. But, I agree that noobie players should look for free servers to get to know the lay of things and private Hive ultimately is the direction to go. I am not trying to detract from the timer solutions as they have their place, combat logging (your def.) is best dealt with a timer. Limited as is my understanding, I can't see timers being anything but universal across all public hive servers, where as gun control is server specific, in simple terms if you don't like that kinda of server....you like hopping... then don't play there.

[hiniberus 122]

Combat logging is something that I kinda support, hate me much as you would but if I just have a python or no gun at all and some dude is trying to snipe me with a sniper or hunting me with his M4, I certainly should have the right to save my ass and haul out. 

 

I believe the best thing to do would be to prevent someone leaving mid-fight (especially if they engaged) would be to turn on the combat timer if you shot/attacked so innocents that are being hunted can leave while people who wish to get into the fight, engage it to the end. 

[ibKabob 2]

Combat logging is something that I kinda support, hate me much as you would but if I just have a python or no gun at all and some dude is trying to snipe me with a sniper or hunting me with his M4, I certainly should have the right to save my ass and haul out. 

 

I believe the best thing to do would be to prevent someone leaving mid-fight (especially if they engaged) would be to turn on the combat timer if you shot/attacked so innocents that are being hunted can leave while people who wish to get into the fight, engage it to the end. 

 

Are you new to Dayz?  Because when the shoe is on the other foot..... it will suck. When they log back in to flank you ... sucks even more.  

 

And, no dewd I don't hate you, the OP might. Human nature dictates the easiest path.... We, OP, and I just want to play a different kind of game. 

[phoboss 224]

Combat logging is something that I kinda support, hate me much as you would but if I just have a python or no gun at all and some dude is trying to snipe me with a sniper or hunting me with his M4, I certainly should have the right to save my ass and haul out. 

 

I believe the best thing to do would be to prevent someone leaving mid-fight (especially if they engaged) would be to turn on the combat timer if you shot/attacked so innocents that are being hunted can leave while people who wish to get into the fight, engage it to the end. 

Hate is a very strong word, but I certainly think that you are very very wrong and should be punished for your behavior. You think because the other person has an unfair advantage you have "the right" to cheat. And that shows me that you are either new to DayZ or never learned what this game is about. DayZ was, and never will be, fair. It's harsh and unforgiving. Any one mistake can cost you your life and you'll have to start over. 

It's a very silly argument... Having "the right" to disconnect because he has a gun and I don't.

But I don't worry about that, because rocket and 90% of the community agree with me when I say, you're a cheater, and something will be done to stop you from cheating. So you better get used to being killed a lot or find yourself a new game. May I suggest Diablo 3? It's a fun game, you can kill a lot of monsters and as long as you don't play hardcore mode, you can never lose anything.

Edited January 19, 2014 by phoboss

[ibKabob 2]

Well Phoboss, it was a good discussion. Enjoyed the soundboard without getting personal.  For that you get my beans.

[Jaybopper 49]

Soooo much overhead... just put in a timer... It works in WoW!

[phoboss 224]

Well Phoboss, it was a good discussion. Enjoyed the soundboard without getting personal.  For that you get my beans.

Hehe. Well the post from ManBearus was a challenge I can tell you that. ;)

Comments, and especially choice of words like that get my blood boiling. "I have the right to disconnect because it's unfair that he has a gun". Just WOW! Really?! The game is unfair, and that makes it OK to cheat? Do you say that during a round of monopoly if someone has a perfect dice roll and wins the game?

 

 

Soooo much overhead... just put in a timer... It works in WoW!

In case you didn't realize it, this isn't WoW ;)

With a simple timer I could still hide in a building for a couple of seconds and disconnect. Which, given the nature of PvP in DayZ isn't enough time for the opponent to advance on the location and take me out. 

Edited January 20, 2014 by phoboss

[General Zod 1118]

While combat logging is in plain wrong, server hopping considering current state of the game may not necessarily be as evil as you make it look. I sometimes do it and I hate having to do it. When I want to gear up I find nice and empty server so that I'm not interrupted. But considering that loot respawns every 4 hours and there are no means of fast travel between places people are getting seriously fed up with running across the map for 20-30 minutes just get search other military base.  

This will change when loot spawn happens not just when server resets and when you have means to travel at decent speed, because right now gearing up feels like playing long distance running simulator. 

 

As for combat logging, yes a timer would be nice but not 5 minutes.

Edited January 20, 2014 by chmielu1258

[phoboss 224]

Loot not respawning is of course not part of what I'm talking about. If you discover that the server you're on is picked clean, server hopping is totally justified. But going into the barracks, and then switching servers 10-15 times to pick the loot out of them is just wrong and should be punishable by death. And I'm talking real life death, not ingame. If you do something like that, your mouse should send out an electric pulse of 10.000V and kill you. End of story! ;)

[General Zod 1118]

Loot not respawning is of course not part of what I'm talking about. If you discover that the server you're on is picked clean, server hopping is totally justified. But going into the barracks, and then switching servers 10-15 times to pick the loot out of them is just wrong and should be punishable by death. And I'm talking real life death, not ingame. If you do something like that, your mouse should send out an electric pulse of 10.000V and kill you. End of story! ;)

This I fully support. Luckily server hoppers do occasionally lose their gear. 

[Munchermanjz 36]

Great ideas, and I know you at least saw my post, Idk if you read it though. The only thing I say needs to be added is some sort of animation or action, something a player could identify as logging out. that way when you fire at someone and have to move up on wherever they took cover, you can tell right away if the guy is logging out to avoid combat, or if he really is sitting still with a rifle in your face. It would have to make him vulnerable (putting weapon away for example) so you can't just stop the logout and kill yyour attacker with deception.

I also feel that the combat timer should engage if a shot is fired near you (50m or something) because even if two players are shooting at eatch other right outside the house you're in, you could directly influence said combat by revealing your location. The idea here is to prevent people from avoiding player situations entirely. I know this wouldn't be perfect and might cause a poor situation, but it would only happen (at least usually) in the higher priority areas where you could be that close to people without knowing it until a shot is fired. it means that you are in the combat area and either become a part of it, or actually have to go through the more realistic process of hiding til it passes or having to run away with the possibility of being detected.

I know this could be abused by bandits just firing off random shots to try to prevent prey from logging out, but thats the point. the player who is trying to avoid the situation failed to escape their pursuers and again, will have to deal with the situation over just making it go away because you don't like it or find it inconvienient. Player interaction of any kind is what makes the game what it is and anyone who avoids it should be punished. (running away or hiding from a player isn't avoiding it, its engaging in interaction even if the one you are escaping from doesn't know you're there)

[phoboss 224]

However this gets implemented is up for Dean and his team to decide, I know they have some ideas floating around. I just hope they don't make it to simple. Fixing combatlogging isn't that hard, logout/combat timer and your good. But ghosting and server hopping is another story. Ghosting should be completely impossible (like I proposed make the last server you were on inaccessible for 20 or more minutes once you joined a new one). Server hopping can't be avoided entirely, because there are legitimate reasons to switch the server every once  in a while, and it shouldn't be prohibited. But you need to stop people from just switching through 10 servers in the same location.

[Mr Hyde 3]

I'd like to add my 2 cents here. Solutions i support:

A-a timer of 1 min, no matter what

B-when you want to log out, the line "preparing extraction" appears then you have to reach a spot X(maybe 200?) meters away from you in a random direction. You will have some kind of tool(an arrow?) to guide you. You may add a little timer(15-30sec?) at the beginning or at the end of the process. Extraction can be aborted, if you retry to log out you will have to repeat the whole process (a new extraction point will be randomly chosen).

 

Solution B supports tension, no camping and it's easy to implement. It preserves the survival spirit of Dayz while enhancing your gaming experience and dealing with combat loggers as well.

Edited January 21, 2014 by Mr Hyde

[General Zod 1118]

I'd like to add my 2 cents here. Solutions i support:

A-a timer of 1 min, no matter what

B-when you want to log out, the line "preparing extraction" appears then you have to reach a spot X(maybe 200?) meters away from you in a random direction. You will have some kind of tool(an arrow?) to guide you. You may add a little timer(15-30sec?) at the beginning or at the end of the process. Extraction can be aborted, if you retry to log out you will have to repeat the whole process (a new extraction point will be randomly chosen).

 

Solution B supports tension, no camping and it's easy to implement. It preserves the survival spirit of Dayz while enhancing your gaming experience and dealing with combat loggers as well.

Solution B will also prevent me from logging out in a safe spot of my choice, in some bushes or other remote location. 

[phoboss 224]

I'd like to add my 2 cents here. Solutions i support:

A-a timer of 1 min, no matter what

B-when you want to log out, the line "preparing extraction" appears then you have to reach a spot X(maybe 200?) meters away from you in a random direction. You will have some kind of tool(an arrow?) to guide you. You may add a little timer(15-30sec?) at the beginning or at the end of the process. Extraction can be aborted, if you retry to log out you will have to repeat the whole process (a new extraction point will be randomly chosen).

 

Solution B supports tension, no camping and it's easy to implement. It preserves the survival spirit of Dayz while enhancing your gaming experience and dealing with combat loggers as well.

Actually I like it a lot. That's not a bad idea at all! 

Just needs some fine tuning I suppose. 

 

Something like this:

 

If you want to log out, you need to move 300m (gives you more of a choice, because of the legitimate concern chmielu1258 had)

OR

If you want to log out, you need to move 300m to random given area where you have a 100m radius in which you can log out. (again chmielu1258's concern of not being able to log out inside a bush or something)

 

 

One Problem though, a lot of people will hate the idea because it makes you play longer before you can actually stop. Meaning, if I really really need to leave right now (for what ever reason), I'd have to play 2-4 minutes longer before I can leave (even when I'm not in combat). 

But me personally I don't have a problem with it. Combat is a big part of the game and it shouldn't be made to easy to avoid it.

 

Again, really like the idea a lot! Thanks for sharing!

 

 

Edit: I added your idea in the original post, hope you don't mind. Gave credit of course!

Edited January 21, 2014 by phoboss