"Mosin" and "M4" accuracy test

[-Gews- 7443]

I can't easily test these two in-game, but I copied some values over to ArmA 2 and noted the groups I got. Given the same dispersion values, the groups should be the same between the two games.

 

 

First up, Mosin. No attachments, 500 meters:

 

Mosin group 1

 

Mosin group 2

 

 

 

 

 

Next, M4. Standard handguard, standard stock, no attachments.

 

M4 group 1

 

M4 group 2

 

 

 

 

Dispersion, using stock parts, is as follows:

 

Mosin = 8.6 MOA

M4A1 = 40.6 MOA

 

 

 

 

Previously I had said the M4 had a dispersion of 0.1, one hundred times more than an ArmA2 M16A2. This is still true... if your M4 lacks both a handguard and a stock! More detailed examination revealed that, apparently, with the default parts, the M4 is "only" 12 times as inaccurate. The CQB stock makes this worse, but it can be improved by a factor of 6 by using the Magpul™ stock and Magpul™ handguard.

 

Just don't take your handguards or stocks off!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Anyways I don't like this approach.

 

It's very similar to weapon attachments in Battlefield 4 or Call of Duty. Sure, these kind of things are "good for gameplay", if you're not bothered by it. However, DayZ will no longer be able to claim to have any sort of realistically represented weapons.

 

Putting Magpul™ parts on your rifle doesn't make your rifle 6 times as accurate, that's absurd.Free floating yadayada or not, doesn't matter, the difference is massive. Same with the CQB butt stock - all the butt stocks are collapsible - so why would someone choose a stock which somehow totally messed up their rifle's accuracy?

 

 

 

 

Survivor: "My M4 shoots minute-of-elephant! Dayz, pls!"

 

BeanZ God: "No worries little one! Head to Brownells and buy Magpul™ items! Thou shalt have a tack-driver!"

 

 

 

<_<

Edited December 24, 2013 by Gews

[Statik (DayZ) 2695]

You're late Gews. I was expecting this within 5 hours of release.

 

I also find it pathetic how you failed to calculate the twist, grain, and initial muzzle velocity of each gun, on each shot.

[kingochaos 131]

Gews, is the MOA for the m4 the same at 100? i wouldn't expect much from  5.56 at 500... Not that i think they have increasing MOA related to bullet weight/velocity ratio's. But you have done such a good job, and for sciences sake, you should check, just incase :D

[gibonez 3633]

I dont think dayz every claimed to be a simulation therefore these new changes are welcomed by me.

 

What I am getting from this is that you need a weapon with all of its parts and in good condition to be able to hit anything at extended ranges ?

 

If so its good.

[AP_Norris 1018]

You heard it here first folks.

Magpul makes weapons six times as accurate!

[kingochaos 131]

I dont think dayz every claimed to be a simulation therefore these new changes are welcomed by me.

 

What I am getting from this is that you need a weapon with all of its parts and in good condition to be able to hit anything at extended ranges ?

 

If so its good.

Thats cool, but they should just make it that you hold it less steady. If its a chewed out bore/rifling, fair enough for randomness, so yah need a new barrel. Im just of the opinion there are better ways to implement it is all.

[Mao Zedong 48]

I dont think dayz every claimed to be a simulation therefore these new changes are welcomed by me.

 

What I am getting from this is that you need a weapon with all of its parts and in good condition to be able to hit anything at extended ranges ?

 

If so its good.

 

Even if it's not intended to be a simulation I'm seeing so many arguments against stuff like third person etc being that it's not realistic. So... :/

[jadee 8]

I dont think dayz every claimed to be a simulation therefore these new changes are welcomed by me.

 

What I am getting from this is that you need a weapon with all of its parts and in good condition to be able to hit anything at extended ranges ?

 

If so its good.

 

For me it's the same, a CQB stock may not affect the rifles performance but maybe make it harder for the character to handle in high precision situations, maybe not be 100% realistic but actually gives the attachments some sense.

 

And hitting at 400-500m is still possible without problems if you got the right stuff, tried it today :)

http://www.twitch.tv/jadeezomg/c/3439521

 

Personally I think people are pushing the elitism too far with DayZ. It's a game, get over it.

[ProGamerGov 74]

For me it's the same, a CQB stock may not affect the rifles performance but maybe make it harder for the character to handle in high precision situations, maybe not be 100% realistic but actually gives the attachments some sense.

 

And hitting at 400-500m is still possible without problems if you got the right stuff, tried it today :)

http://www.twitch.tv/jadeezomg/c/3439521

 

Personally I think people are pushing the elitism too far with DayZ. It's a game, get over it.

Realistic is one of the defining aspects of BI's games. Not some stupid arcade weapons, realistic are much more enjoyable and fun. No one cares whether things are balanced or have meaning. If they are realistic we don't get the stupid "buff this and nerf that" crap that other games have.

 

The whole elitism thing with "it's a game, realistic is not fun because every other game tries to be arcade" Needs to go as well.

[beardedcap 22]

Finally someone who has a grasp of how guns work.

[tgmoore 31]

Long time ARMA fan here. I'd like to see dayZ stick to its ARMA roots with realistic representations of firearms and their real world capabilities.

[jadee 8]

Realistic is one of the defining aspects of BI's games. Not some stupid arcade weapons, realistic are much more enjoyable and fun. No one cares whether things are balanced or have meaning. If they are realistic we don't get the stupid "buff this and nerf that" crap that other games have.

 

The whole elitism thing with "it's a game, realistic is not fun because every other game tries to be arcade" Needs to go as well.

 

Wow, exactly the reply I expected. Also you shouldn't generalize your opinion here, not for everyone die hard realism is "much more enjoyable", people will also complain (note: I'm not complaining, I'm just open to changes that help the game, even it at it's at the cost of realism) if something is not balanced, even if the game is realistic, because the gameplay of DayZ is attracting far more than the die hard military guy who plays ARMA. 

 

Day Z still is far more realistic than any other comparable game and it's still the one of the key features you value so much.

 

I'm not saying realism is bad (I actually like realism very much), but is has its limits where being a game just is a bigger point than realism. If you are talking realism, why am I able to sprint for an hour straight while carrying around 40kg of stuff. Why do I have to eat around 10 cans of food per day? Right because sometimes realism is just to much. 

 

I get your mentality but it just can't ask for everything to be realistic as possible. If you want that there is always the possibility to go outside :). DayZ is probably won't be the thing you want, because it's a game, not a simulation. 

 

I still stand by my opinion that if something makes the game experience richer even at the cost of a small amount of realism that is for the normal player unnoticeable and even needs the elitist player to dive into game files and conduct various tests, it's good. 

 

As a game designer myself I always try to see what is the best for the game as a whole.

[-Gews- 7443]

Gews, is the MOA for the m4 the same at 100? i wouldn't expect much from 5.56 at 500... Not that i think they have increasing MOA related to bullet weight/velocity ratio's. But you have done such a good job, and for sciences sake, you should check, just incase :D

I don't think dispersion increases so yes. I would expect the 5-shot groups to be 5 times as small at 100.

The whole elitism thing with "it's a game, realistic is not fun because every other game tries to be arcade" Needs to go as well.

The same ProGamer from bistudio forums?

I still stand by my opinion that if something makes the game experience richer even at the cost of a small amount of realism that is for the normal player unnoticeable and even needs the elitist player to dive into game files and conduct various tests, it's good.

"Richer" can mean different things to different people. I find ACE2 "richer" than vanilla ArmA.

In certain areas I can let realism slide, more so for DayZ than ArmA, but in other areas I consider it important. I mean, there is realism like in flight sims, where you can't even fly without learning very complicated controls, and then there is "background realism" where the player doesn't have to do much, if anything.

Part of the fun comes from my character using "realistically portrayed" weapons instead of guns that look real but don't have their real capabilities (or drawbacks). Part of the fun also comes from thinking how to improve said weapons.

Realism aside, this has been noted quite a few times, both on Reddit and here we've had people making threads asking why their guns are inaccurate.

http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/158079-mosin-with-long-range-scope/

http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/156059-m4-is-really-inaccurate/

http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/155638-weapon-inaccuracy/

http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/154642-accuracy-of-the-guns-and-balota-military-spawns/

Lots more of those...

[Skat3rat 1633]

Thanks for posting this, Gews. I got in a firefight at NWAF earlier and I was wondering why I was missing despite the fact that I had my sights line up perfectly.

[jadee 8]

"Richer" can mean different things to different people. I find ACE2 "richer" than vanilla ArmA.

In certain areas I can let realism slide, more so for DayZ than ArmA, but in other areas I consider it important. I mean, there is realism like in flight sims, where you can't even fly without learning very complicated controls, and then there is "background realism" where the player doesn't have to do much, if anything.

Part of the fun comes from my character using "realistically portrayed" weapons instead of guns that look real but don't have their real capabilities (or drawbacks). Part of the fun also comes from thinking how to improve said weapons.

Realism aside, this has been noted quite a few times, both on Reddit and here we've had people making threads asking why their guns are inaccurate.

 

Yea, I get the point with the "background realism", but many things like damaged/missing parts, bad stance, missing weapons training etc. can't be realistic portrayed in a game without affecting some points, here it is the dispersion, if the developer finds another way to communicate the state of damaged weapons/etc and I'll be the first to welcome it, but at the moment it's the best we got. (Yea I'm alphaing you right there, sorry)

 

And about the posts of inaccuracy ... I've seen them too, but my friends and I who are familiar with the DayZ Mod/ARMA aiming model never had any problems hitting, only with damaged weapons at high ranges.

 

I'm not trying to say everyone in those threads is just bad, but I've seen videos of people shooting at 100m with the weapon zeroed hat 500 and yelling why they don't hit and I believe there are worse cases. I think most people are too fast thinking that it can't be their fault, it must be the game (because that's what our society is teaching the people). You probably know better than I do that this isn't CoD, there is zeroing, an actual bullet traveling, huge sway after crawling/sprinting and much more. No wonder many mostly new players are complaining.

[-Gews- 7443]

Yea, I get the point with the "background realism", but many things like damaged/missing parts, bad stance, missing weapons training etc. can't be realistic portrayed in a game without affecting some points, here it is the dispersion, if the developer finds another way to communicate the state of damaged weapons/etc and I'll be the first to welcome it, but at the moment it's the best we got. (Yea I'm alphaing you right there, sorry)

Well, I am unaware if damage actually does anything to accuracy right now. I don't see anything about damaged vs pristine status, so I would assume it currently only depends what parts you have. Like I said, if you have all Magpul parts, you have way better accuracy, better than the Mosin, and about as good as the AKM in ArmA 2.

 

Anyways, if the dispersion is this high, play skill doesn't have too much of a role... and nothing's more annoying than relying on a "roll of the dice". Instead of altering dispersion, if they had some kind of increased weapon sway, skilled players could click the mouse at the right time, although there still needs to be a realistic amount of dispersion.

 

I should note right here that ACE mod did have increased weapon dispersion to simulate "combat" accuracy! Some people didn't like that. However, dispersion was still not nearly as high as it is in DayZ.

 

And about the posts of inaccuracy ... I've seen them too, but my friends and I who are familiar with the DayZ Mod/ARMA aiming model never had any problems hitting, only with damaged weapons at high ranges.

 

I'm not trying to say everyone in those threads is just bad, but I've seen videos of people shooting at 100m with the weapon zeroed hat 500 and yelling why they don't hit and I believe there are worse cases. I think most people are too fast thinking that it can't be their fault, it must be the game (because that's what our society is teaching the people). You probably know better than I do that this isn't CoD, there is zeroing, an actual bullet traveling, huge sway after crawling/sprinting and much more. No wonder many mostly new players are complaining.

 

I doubt it's just new players, most people have played the mod so are used to ArmA weapons. It's clear people are talking about the dispersion when they say one shot went left, one right, one up, one down. This isn't strange at all, it's perfectly expected when the dispersion values are way higher than ArmA, which everyone is used to.

 

Personally I shot a few zombies from towers the other day, I got a few first round head shots from 150 meters or so, but I believe I had some Magpul parts at that time.

[codave 121]

Finally someone who has a grasp of how guns work.

 

Gews does that.

 

I'd be curious to see results with scopes and bipods as well.  I'd test it, but I can never find all the things I need...

 

:)

[jadee 8]

Well, I am unaware if damage actually does anything to accuracy right now. I don't see anything about damaged vs pristine status, so I would assume it currently only depends what parts you have. Like I said, if you have all Magpul parts, you have way better accuracy, better than the Mosin, and about as good as the AKM in ArmA 2.

 

Anyways, if the dispersion is this high, play skill doesn't have too much of a role... and nothing's more annoying than relying on a "roll of the dice". Instead of altering dispersion, if they had some kind of increased weapon sway, skilled players could click the mouse at the right time, although there still needs to be a realistic amount of dispersion.

 

I should note right here that ACE mod did have increased weapon dispersion to simulate "combat" accuracy! Some people didn't like that. However, dispersion was still not nearly as high as it is in DayZ.

 

I doubt it's just new players, most people have played the mod so are used to ArmA weapons. It's clear people are talking about the dispersion when they say one shot went left, one right, one up, one down. This isn't strange at all, it's perfectly expected when the dispersion values are way higher than ArmA, which everyone is used to.

 

Personally I shot a few zombies from towers the other day, I got a few first round head shots from 150 meters or so, but I believe I had some Magpul parts at that time.

 

Personally I believe that damage is taken into account when calculating the final dispersion value, is it that hard to find out if it matters since you already pulled the dispersion base values etc from the game files?

Because I had no troubles hitting reliable at ranges around 100-200m with first shot precision. (I killed every zombie the last days because of those inaccuracy threads ^^)

 

The video I posted above was around 400-500m, you can't see the impacts on the stream video, but the bullet never hit right or left around the target, it only missed because I was aiming too high. That was with standard stock and Magpul handguard, everything pristine, and I had similar performances with the standard handguard. So, it can't be that bad if you can hit an 400-500m target with an well maintained M4, which is pretty fine in terms of realism to me. 

 

About the players and their inaccuracy ... I just can't really believe it because all video footage I've seen was mostly user fault or was missing information like condition of the weapon/player and specific parts and since I haven't experienced any inaccuracy that major, like people are saying, it just feels way off. Mostly because I've played a lot since the release and took every chance to test my ability with the gun, well over 500 rounds on target.

 

Another thought has been about the new server client architecture and how ping and desync can affect something like this, because my ping is around 15-25 and that it's probably that players under worse conditions are affected negatively, but that's just speculation. 

[gibonez 3633]

I should note right here that ACE mod did have increased weapon dispersion to simulate "combat" accuracy! Some people didn't like that. However, dispersion was still not nearly as high as it is in DayZ.

 

 

 

 

 

Ace's dispersion was perfect imo. combined with wind it made the gameplay far more challenging and rewarding.

[DayZ4L1F3 3]

Accuracy needs to be patched soon.

[-Gews- 7443]

Personally I believe that damage is taken into account when calculating the final dispersion value, is it that hard to find out if it matters since you already pulled the dispersion base values etc from the game files?

There's a ton of files and I haven't checked it all, it does take time, and it's sometimes unclear how things work. From what I saw so far, no mention of condition. I'm not saying it doesn't affect it, but I don't know yet. People with pristine weapons have been complaining and specifically mentioned their weapon condition.

 

The video I posted above was around 400-500m, you can't see the impacts on the stream video, but the bullet never hit right or left around the target, it only missed because I was aiming too high. That was with standard stock and Magpul handguard, everything pristine, and I had similar performances with the standard handguard. So, it can't be that bad if you can hit an 400-500m target with an well maintained M4, which is pretty fine in terms of realism to me.

Magpul + standard = 40% less dispersion than all standard.

I will have to test at longer ranges, nonetheless I would expect dispersion to act exactly the same way as it does in ArmA, it's the same basic engine with the same weapon configurations. If it acts differently I'd assume there was a dispersion modifier hidden somewhere that I missed.

 

 

About the players and their inaccuracy ... I just can't really believe it because all video footage I've seen was mostly user fault or was missing information like condition of the weapon/player and specific parts and since I haven't experienced any inaccuracy that major, like people are saying, it just feels way off. Mostly because I've played a lot since the release and took every chance to test my ability with the gun, well over 500 rounds on target.

 

Another thought has been about the new server client architecture and how ping and desync can affect something like this, because my ping is around 15-25 and that it's probably that players under worse conditions are affected negatively, but that's just speculation.

Still doubt it's player error. The weapons simply aren't shooting accurate. We wouldn't see people complain otherwise.

All I want is [a] authentic/realistic dispersions and authentic/realistic effects from weapon attachments (in some cases this may mean little or no effect).

Bahaha! :P another thread posted while I typed this... http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/158115-accuracy-problem/

EDIT: make that TWO new threads. http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/158113-this-is-a-really-really-bad-fucking-game/

EDIT: THREE new threads about accuracy! http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/158110-accuracy-should-be-next-patch/

:lol:

Edited December 24, 2013 by Gews

[ob1 5]

I have to agree with the OP.

 

The devs have gone full retard on this one, The game is built on the 'Real Virtuality 3' engine and the only thing this engine does well and what it is designed for is weapon and ballistic simulation and they FUCKED it up ? They even implemented and simulated the culminating scopes and red dot sights from arma 3 but that means absolutely SHIT when they implement random shot placements. Its fucked up and they can go get fucked with this one. The only thing about this game that interested me was its simulation. I'm glad this game was gifted to me, what an abomination.

[jadee 8]

There's a ton of files and I haven't checked it all, it does take time, and it's sometimes unclear how things work. From what I saw so far, no mention of condition. I'm not saying it doesn't affect it, but I don't know yet. People with pristine weapons have been complaining and specifically mentioned their weapon condition.

 

Magpul + standard = 40% less dispersion than all standard.

I will have to test at longer ranges, nonetheless I would expect dispersion to act exactly the same way as it does in ArmA, it's the same basic engine with the same weapon configurations. If it acts differently I'd assume there was a dispersion modifier hidden somewhere that I missed.

 

Still doubt it's player error. The weapons simply aren't shooting accurate. We wouldn't see people complain otherwise.

All I want is [a] authentic/realistic dispersions and authentic/realistic effects from weapon attachments (in some cases this may mean little or no effect).

 

Okay, so the truth still waits in those files :).

 

I still think people are overreacting a bit, until there isn't any certainty or some statement by the dev team. In contrast to the "inaccuracy posts" I've also seen a lot of posts denying the fact and since none of my large group friends that play with me has had any complains, it still makes me wonder why some players seem to be affected really heavy, while others don''t or barely notice it at all.

[-Gews- 7443]

Okay, so the truth still waits in those files :).

Yep, and there's like 225 pbos with many subfolders in each...

I still think people are overreacting a bit, until there isn't any certainty or some statement by the dev team. In contrast to the "inaccuracy posts" I've also seen a lot of posts denying the fact and since none of my large group friends that play with me has had any complains, it still makes me wonder why some players seem to be affected really heavy, while others don''t or barely notice it at all.

Well, judging by the sheer amount of posts on the subject AND the configurations I have seen, I'm going to go with the majority on this one.

I have a few rounds and a stock M4 currently, so I will do a short test and see what the result is, then compare to ArmA...

[franzuu 211]

I made a thread that proposes many changes to the current weapon mechanics, check it out http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/157752-proposed-changes-to-weapon-handling-debuffs-accuracy-tradeoffs-etc/#entry1580659