Why are people complaining about KOS like it's a feature issue?

[ZedsDeadBaby 2287]

I find it funny how people say "You have to kill people for their stuff" No, Theres this one grand fucking thing that civil people do

Wait for it....

*Drum roll*

...............TRADE!

 

I love trading. I'll trade you one bullet to the head for literally everything you have. Fair deal? No? That's okay, it wasn't actually a question because you're dead already and lying face down in your underpants. 

[Stncold 0]

It actually doesn't become a challenge. I've been playing games that boil down to "Kill the other players." since the early 90's. Deathmatch games where you shoot everyone on sight. There is no longer any challenge related to that game play style for some of us. The challenge comes from other interactions which are not possible when most of the player base treats it like Quake.

 

Speaking as somebody who grew up on UO and full-loot muds in mid90's-early 00's, gotta agree with this.  KOSing is boring to me in this game. There is no fun and challenge behind it when I can hide behind anonymity(since people don't see who killed them) and server-hopping(not that I ever really do it, but it's there and KOSers do abuse it). Nobody knows who I am, nobody knows my regular stomping grounds, nobody forces me to select my targets better or forms mobs to hunt me. Nobody forces me to play SMARTER and give me a challenge.

 

As much as people like to taut DayZ as a hardcore game, it's pretty casual when you compare it to UO and some of those MUDS of the 90's as far as a PvP environment goes. Forced anonymity + a way to cheese out soon it starts going downhill=might as well be playing CoD if you want to just run around killing people.

Edited December 19, 2013 by Stncold

[mercules 1290]

Although I might agree with you to some degree, there should never be any kind of "protection" against KoS.

You already have the problem where killing somebody might ruin all the things he had, hence making the kill pretty useless, and thats just as far as it should go.

The day something more then that is added to counter KoS, is the day I pack my shit and leave, and I believe I speak for alot of players.

People need to have the freedom to make their own choices.

 

Check out this thread... 

http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/155771-how-can-we-make-a-players-life-more-important-than-his-gear/

I don't believe in preventing killing at all. I do believe that we need incentives that make shooting random people for no reason less desirable. As it is loosing your character is no big deal. Gearing up because a fairly simple process for most people after and when we finally do have storage items then it really becomes somewhat moot because you have a spare stashed somewhere if you do die.

 

That's fine, but who cares? Why is it so important to you to establish the difference? Players are free to do both, as they should be.

 

 

What a crock. You might not like the challenge, but that doesn't mean there isn't one. Unless you're telling me you win every fight you've ever been involved in in DayZ, a claim upon which I would levy a heavy dose of bullshit-calling.

 

No, there really isn't and literally hundreds of games handle the "shoot at everyone" better than DayZ Mod/SA. It's not challenging, it's boring. There is a reason I don't play BF/CoD style games very often, because they are dull. 

 

I love trading. I'll trade you one bullet to the head for literally everything you have. Fair deal? No? That's okay, it wasn't actually a question because you're dead already and lying face down in your underpants. 

 

Good luck with that when 100% of the player base shoots on sight. It's not because people like you exist, it's because the is literally no reason not to risk shooting the other person that wants to trade so you might as well do it and everyone does. We have hundreds of games that want you to shoot everyone you see but only one where you consider NOT shooting someone. So if you really want to shoot everyone you see there is a very good selection to choose from and no one is forcing you to play DayZ. ;)

[5P4RK4 (DayZ) 50]

See.. I disagree with Siberian on a lot of things, but he gets it. Killing is not Killing On Sight. 

 

 

I don't really understand the distinction you make. Can you explain what KOS is for you? Player hunting for fun? Or just murdering in cherno with low tier weapons? Or bambi hunting? Is there a difference?

 

If I'm feeling murdery I'll kill anyone for no reason, but i don't KoS... I Kill when the moment is right, and usually that means they never see me in the first place and I see them for a long time. And I will certainly take their gear if they have any. But its not because I needed anything necessarily that I engaged them in the first place. 

 

My friends and I will generally just lock down an area and attack anyone who comes in view. Not because we need anything, but because its not worth the risk and we aren't interested in trading or helping anyone else. I don't really see anything wrong with this. But everyone who died is probably OMG KoS why U NO ask if friendly? 

 

Sandbox is sandbox. Have fun in it. 

[JESUSARIUS REX (DayZ) 163]

The issue is that other people in real life would have something beyond the crap on their back to bring to the mix of a group. In the game your character value is for the most part your gear. So for most lone wolves all another player tends to be false under two categories: Threat or Loot. Since both categories work well with putting a bullet into that other players head that is what they do. That is a system issue. 

In real life during something like this you might want to NOT run around shooting everyone you see because all those other people might have valuable skills and you can't tell what they are with a quick glance what what they are wearing and carrying. That guy might be a Dr. or First Responder and could end up saving your life if you fall ill or get hurt. That guy might be a mechanic and can get a car running from spare parts. Heck,  pencil pusher accountant might be able to look at some records in an office and tell you where a supply of food might be cached from the receipts.

The other thing that pushes it is death not meaning anything. You die, you respawn, you gear up. You don't care about the avatar since there is nothing about it that it took effort to get. In some cases you were lucky, in others it was a small time investment,  and in yet others you farmed loot server hopping so who cares you can do it again. People who don't care about that life just charge in and do it all over. For them that becomes the game. Not how long can I stay alive, but how quickly can I be able to kill someone else. It's a reversal of the idea behind the game. 

It's fine to always have that threat but I have already been killed with literally nothing but the starter gear you drop with which means I was killed to no advantage to the person killing me. THAT is KoS not, "Oh... he has a gun and doesn't realize we are here. We could ambush him when he comes out of that house and then have a gun as well as Axes."

 

This.

In real life (ya, i know, this isn't real life) you wouldn't just go around killing people, in situation like dayz, would you. People would work together much more than they do in Dayz. It's human nature. KoS will always be a part of dayz, and i think it should be. It's just TOO abundant right now.

[Dyckman 26]

KoS isn't an issue. Don't know why you blame CoD(although it's much more easier to blame "cod kiddies")but eh, to each his own.

 

Some people kill on sight and that's their playstyle. Just like some people rather communicate first.

 

I shoot everyone with a gun, no exception if they're crossing my way. Or I watch them and see if their hostile towards someone else(ofc in a town/city) in the woods I just avoid them unless they are going the direction I am going.

 

The problem isn't KoS the problem is some players run up to another player and expect them to be friendly and get shot at. Are you seriously on your right mind going to run up to someone you do not know if this was a real apocalypse? Are you going to reckless loot in a town knowing there's zombies and possible hostile people around the area?

 

Maybe you're approaching the game with the wrong mind set, everyone should be dangerous until proven other wise. Even if you get a conversation out of someone, and he/she runs with you for a bit, what stops them from shooting you in the back later? Play your way, don't bash the way others play.

 

I really hate people who just shoot me when they see me, if I'm unarmed but hey, it is what it is. I try to avoid people with guns anyways, unless they get a surprise on me.

 

I'd really hate for them to add something that penalizes murders(a bounty that everyone can see on the server) It's good enough that you need to find matching blood, and food and liquids is difficult to get. I'm up for small stuff like that, which will make you think twice before killing someone else, but still KoS is a play style just like any other.

[ZedsDeadBaby 2287]

No, there really isn't and literally hundreds of games handle the "shoot at everyone" better than DayZ Mod/SA. It's not challenging, it's boring. There is a reason I don't play BF/CoD style games very often, because they are dull. 

 

Then don't play DayZ like that? You don't have to. I don't understand. If you don't want to shoot everyone, don't. There's plenty of clans and squads who have this policy. Join one and have fun. I survived for 45 consecutive days during the mod with over 1600 zombie kills and collected over a dozen different vehicles, all while killing a total of like 3 players. If you don't want to engage players in combat, don't do it.

 

But don't expect to be able to wander up to strangers like a lost puppy and ask them for directions to the nearest smoke shop without getting your head blown off. If you want to avoid combat and combat comes from encounter strangers then here's a shocking tip: avoid strangers. "But I want to make friends!" Tough titties. This isn't The Sims. If you want to play kissy-huggy with everyone you meet, then you've come to the wrong zombie-infested Russian wilderness. 

 

 

 

We have hundreds of games that want you to shoot everyone you see but only one where you consider NOT shooting someone. So if you really want to shoot everyone you see there is a very good selection to choose from and no one is forcing you to play DayZ.  ;)

 

No, but some people are trying to force me to play it in a certain way that conforms to their pre-conceived standards.

 

Let me get this straight: I don't give a flying fuck what you do and don't find dull or interesting. You're not me. I'm me. I find the constant threat of player attacks to be the sole source of intensity, drama and fear in DayZ. It's the reason the game is exciting. If people only shot me when they had a "really, really good reason" (presumably one they have run by you ahead of time since you're the final arbiter on when it's appropriate to shoot other players) then the game would be dull and uninteresting for me.

 

You see, there are plenty of other very good games out there that allow you to roam around shooting zombies and collecting loot without PvP combat. Nobody is forcing you to play DayZ either. So if all you want to do is shoot zombies and eat fruit, then you're just as capable of finding another game to play as I am.

[mercules 1290]

...and this is the point I am trying to make. Killing =/= Killing On Sight. Killing on Sight is literally spotting someone and shooting them. More times than not it is going to be a dumb move. Other survivors will hear you and avoid or come to your location. You might damage the very gear you were looking to loot from the corpse. 

Now if you are killing people you see just to be an ass, well you are an ass, enjoy life.

 

 

*sigh*

 

Kill On Sight =/= Killing. 

Kill on Sight is literally killing everyone you see for no apparent reason. I have nothing against banditry or killing. I kill people myself. However, there is a subset of people who spot a player and start blasting when there is no benefit to doing so and probably some downfalls. That is KoS, not Bandits. :)

 

 

I don't really understand the distinction you make. Can you explain what KOS is for you? Player hunting for fun? Or just murdering in cherno with low tier weapons? Or bambi hunting? Is there a difference?

 

If I'm feeling murdery I'll kill anyone for no reason, but i don't KoS... I Kill when the moment is right, and usually that means they never see me in the first place and I see them for a long time. And I will certainly take their gear if they have any. But its not because I needed anything necessarily that I engaged them in the first place. 

 

My friends and I will generally just lock down an area and attack anyone who comes in view. Not because we need anything, but because its not worth the risk and we aren't interested in trading or helping anyone else. I don't really see anything wrong with this. But everyone who died is probably OMG KoS why U NO ask if friendly? 

 

Sandbox is sandbox. Have fun in it. 

 

You mean explain it again?

 

If you look at the design theory behind this game is was to put people into a situation of survival and then see what they do. Killing other players is an option and always should be. However, killing players as a hobby is a bit annoying for anyone trying to actually play  the game based upon it's actual theory. Did I axe a guy with a gun when I ran into him in a house? Damn straight I did because he had a gun, we were in tight quarters and 99% of the player base would get that gun out as quickly as possible and shoot me. Did I talk to him first? No, because of the state of the player base. Were the player base less focused on their "murdery moods" and more on actually surviving then what most likely would have happened is that I would have gotten the hell out of the house and let him know on voice I was leaving the area. He could then judge if this was in fact likely and/or true and maybe cover me to be certain I left and then probably split himself. 

I've seen that very thing happen. However, when the majority of the player base treats the game like Quake/BF/COD just another blast away at anyone FPS disengaging isn't even an option. The majority of the player base would simply pull the gun and step outside and shoot me. Most of them would pull the gun and step outside to shoot me just because. So now my options are rather limited, kill him or be killed. I've played those games to death. I want something just a bit different where the threat is always there, but not alwasy going to come true. 

Kill On Sight means just that. You see a player and you shoot them. There is no game based reason and probably several good ones not to shoot them like making noise and getting shot in return. 

[ZedsDeadBaby 2287]

You mean explain it again?

 

If you look at the design theory behind this game is was to put people into a situation of survival and then see what they do. Killing other players is an option and always should be. However, killing players as a hobby is a bit annoying for anyone trying to actually play  the game based upon it's actual theory. 

 

How can you type this and not immediately say to yourself "Wait, I'm contradicting myself completely."

 

The theory behind the game is to put people in a survival situation and see what they do.

 

It turns out, for many of them, what they do is shoot other people a lot.

 

But, for some reason that goes against the theory of the game?

 

How?

 

You literally just got done saying that it was designed to see what players do.

 

Kill On Sight means just that. You see a player and you shoot them. There is no game based reason

 

It's loads of fun and I play games to have fun. Therefore I have a "game-based reason" to shoot you. It's really not complicated.

Edited December 19, 2013 by ZedsDeadBaby

[Tara505 18]

I'm not against KoS in itself, I expect that in a zombie survival game. I just wish people did it a little differently. Like as either a last ditch effort to get supplies that they desperately need, out of fear or because after surviving for a month they have enough ammo to feel confident in killing.

 

I really want this to play out as a survival game when meeting other players. Not just killing because their character's life doesn't matter and they're bored. I want our character's lives to mean something in a survival game, and for people to desperately want their character to live. 

 

At the same time though, it's not like I want to run into people and not be afraid or concerned. I just wish people killed for different reasons other than they just feel like killing and wouldn't mind it too much that their character died because guns and such are easy to find.

[kottton 5]

the best part of kos is all the people crying about it.  +1 if you can make them cry on voice com in server. 

[Lutz6000 1]

Don´t see the Problem eiter..
I think every Dayz Player knows the feeling when suddenly out of nowhere an other Player approaches and you check: good Backpack, rifle in his hand, looks directly at you... what do you do? Had this Situation today when we (two buddies and me) searched a Hospital. Suddenly someone shots at us und I tried to reach the upper floor. Was alone up there and suddenly a Guy came around the Corner. After I shot him and let my Buddys loot him we discovered that he had no magazines for the M4 but just a single chambered Bullet and was strongly bleeding (even before I shoot him) he only was at the Hospital to find bandages and shelter but in this moment I just saw an armed Guy who doesn´t have anything to loose (cause he was already bleeding). Without the KoS the whole suspense would be taken out of the game.

[Tara505 18]

Don´t see the Problem eiter..

I think every Dayz Player knows the feeling when suddenly out of nowhere an other Player approaches and you check: good Backpack, rifle in his hand, looks directly at you... what do you do? Had this Situation today when we (two buddies and me) searched a Hospital. Suddenly someone shots at us und I tried to reach the upper floor. Was alone up there and suddenly a Guy came around the Corner. After I shot him and let my Buddys loot him we discovered that he had no magazines for the M4 but just a single chambered Bullet and was strongly bleeding (even before I shoot him) he only was at the Hospital to find bandages and shelter but in this moment I just saw an armed Guy who doesn´t have anything to loose (cause he was already bleeding). Without the KoS the whole suspense would be taken out of the game.

This! This is the KoS that I want to hear more about in a survival game. :D Hopefully one of these days supplies will be low enough and characters will matter enough for the game to turn more into this.

[mercules 1290]

How can you type this and not immediately say to yourself "Wait, I'm contradicting myself completely."

 

The theory behind the game is to put people in a survival situation and see what they do.

 

It turns out, for many of them, what they do is shoot other people a lot.

 

But, for some reason that goes against the theory of the game?

 

How?

 

You literally just got done saying that it was designed to see what players do.

 

 

It's loads of fun and I play games to have fun. Therefore I have a "game-based reason" to shoot you. It's really not complicated.

 

Because in that actual situation it would blatantly stupid to wander around blasting people with guns for the lolz?

Ah, but you see shooting other players is really nothing new. I've been doing it for longer than some of you have been alive. It's old, it's stale and there are literally hundreds of games that give you that experience. DayZ is one of the few to give you that other option of NOT shooting someone... and actually benefiting from it.  :o Nah... instead lets play it like were are playing the other hundreds and everything else that came before them. 

[mercules 1290]

I just wish people did it a little differently. Like as either a last ditch effort to get supplies that they desperately need, out of fear or because after surviving for a month they have enough ammo to feel confident in killing.

 

 

That isn't KOS. That is the other thing. :)

[Xiroth 191]

What I don't get is how some people just don't fight back while you're beating the snot out of them. I don't know about you guys, but if someone tries to attack me I don't hesitate to fight back... trying to just run away only gets you killed.

 

Plus if you're running away saying things like "leave me alone, you suck, i hate you" it only fuels my killing rage with your delicious tears.

[Jamz 253]

 

 

The theory behind the game is to put people in a survival situation and see what they do.

 

It turns out, for many of them, what they do is shoot other people a lot.

 

 

Actually this is the exact issue behind KOS, the fact that it's actually a simulated survival situation and therefore a contradiction in terms. If the situation were real people would not KOS, but this can never be the way in a complete sandbox FFA PVP game, unless something is done to accomodate alternate playstyles. No one has a problem with KOS per se, but rather its effect at the moment on other playstyles.

[Tara505 18]

What I don't get is how some people just don't fight back while you're beating the snot out of them. I don't know about you guys, but if someone tries to attack me I don't hesitate to fight back... trying to just run away only gets you killed.

 

Plus if you're running away saying things like "leave me alone, you suck, i hate you" it only fuels my killing rage with your delicious tears.

 

My first reaction would be to sprint away quite frankly, lol. Unless maybe I'm stuck in a small building or something. Seems like the smarter choice for survival, particularly if the person got the first hit on me and I don't even have a weapon in my hands. 

Edited December 19, 2013 by Tara505

[mercules 1290]

Actually this is the exact issue behind KOS, the fact that it's actually a simulated survival situation and therefore a contradiction in terms. If the situation were real people would not KOS, but this can never be the way in a complete sandbox FFA PVP game, unless something is done to accomodate alternate playstyles. No one has a problem with KOS per se, but rather its effect at the moment on other playstyles.

 

Yes! Exactly. When 99% of the population are raving sociopaths who kill people for no apparent reason then there really isn't any reason not to start everyone off with a gun and just let them deathmatch it out... AKA EVERY OTHER GAME OUT THERE.

[doctorbadsign 645]

I agree, much as I hate being killed on sight by other players, they are not breaking any rules by doing so and I do not feel arrogant enough to claim that I am playing the game the right way, and they are doing it wrong, or that I am a superior player or anything. Its bullshit. People play how they want to, there is no right or wrong way. 

 

Wanting to change the rules of the game (or the features) to disallow KOS or to lessen it, is like wanting to change the rules of chess because your friend keeps getting checkmate in 4 moves. Its not the rules that need to change its the way you respond to the other player.

 

What do I mean by that? I've said it before. Friendlies start communicating with each other, add each other as friends on Steam and play together, watch each other's backs, gear up, protect new spawns, get revenge on KOS'ers, trade items with each other. If enough people fight back in such a manner people might see a pay off in playing like that that matches the benefits of killing on sight. 

 

Nothing about the features of DayZ can get rid of KOS. If enough people did something about how they play the game, things might change.

[T-Dawg 6]

Yes! Exactly. When 99% of the population are raving sociopaths who kill people for no apparent reason then there really isn't any reason not to start everyone off with a gun and just let them deathmatch it out... AKA EVERY OTHER GAME OUT THERE.

 

Oh come on. When people are on the beach without guns then everybody (almost) are nice. People turn into raging sociopaths when they get a gun or see somebody else with a gun :) (Well actually, I was attacked a couple of times as a fresh spawn by people with axes. I told them to fuck off and they did. Mostly because they realized they will never catch up to an unarmed guy when they have a weapon equipped)

 

But you are right. As the game is now everybody might just as well start off with an M4 and a clip of 30 bullets. That why the cheesy people save some time sprinting to Balota and then do some server hopping. 

But I have no doubts this will be dealt with in due time. 

[mercules 1290]

Nothing about the features of DayZ can get rid of KOS. If enough people did something about how they play the game, things might change.

 

Of course not, but there are ways to discourage it. One way is to make your life actually matter so that people are less likely to risk shooting "for the lolz". Especially if they raise zombies up to the threat level they have talked about. They will never be as dangerous as a player, but make it so drawing their attention isn't easily dealt with and so that your death actually matters other than gear and I think you will see less people just blasting away without thought.

[mercules 1290]

Oh come on. When people are on the beach without guns then everybody (almost) are nice. People turn into raging sociopaths when they get a gun or see somebody else with a gun :) (Well actually, I was attacked a couple of times as a fresh spawn by people with axes. I told them to fuck off and they did. Mostly because they realized they will never catch up to an unarmed guy when they have a weapon equipped)

 

But you are right. As the game is now everybody might just as well start off with an M4 and a clip of 30 bullets. That why the cheesy people save some time sprinting to Balota and then do some server hopping. 

But I have no doubts this will be dealt with in due time. 

 

Um... I have heard plenty of stories of people being pummeled to death on the beach by fists after they spawned. We are bordering on a very high percentage of sociopaths.  :D

[Xiroth 191]

My first reaction would be to sprint away quite frankly, lol. Unless maybe I'm stuck in a small building or something. Seems like the smarter choice for survival, particularly if the person got the first hit on me and I don't even have a weapon in my hands. 

 

Hmm, If I'm "out gunned" I try to avoid a fight. Like if I see someone that has a rifle, and they haven't seen me, I'll just steer clear of them to avoid being killed. Chances are they're probably going to kill me if they see me.

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is if some guy starts punching you, you may as well raise your fists and punch him back. Most people just seem to keep running though...

[codeine 3]

The problem is the zombies.

 

Remember in the mod you were too scared to shoot your gun in town because you would get swarmed by zombies? Atm i'm lucky to see 1 zombie per city. What do people do now out of boredom? They kill each other.