Detailed Humanity Discussion - Yep Another Topic about Humanity

[ArmyofSolo 1]

Stated Goal: 

 

To increase the efficacy of all types of game play styles (Bandit, Hero, or Civilian) while balancing the pros and cons of each by creating a new “Humanity/Reputation” system.

 

Current Problem: 

 

With the current humanity system, playing as a Hero, Civilian, or Bandit is rather pointless.  All three are required for an immersive and entertaining experience, but manipulations in the current humanity system prevent accurate alignments.  As a result, the tension/conflict between the three alignments is reduced and funnels people into a shoot on sight mentality.

 

Suggested Solution (3-Parts):

 

Part 1:  Self-Selected Humanity Alignment

 

In part 1, players will self-select their humanity alignment by choosing 1 of 3 options (Hero, Bandit, or Undisclosed).  What players choose in this option will impact how the humanity/reputation system will play-out while in-game.  There is nothing to prevent a bandit from listing him/herself as a hero (a bandit in disguise) and vice-versa.  However, calling one’s self a hero but acting like a bandit would have additional implications and vice-versa.

 

The Self-Selected Alignment is not a means to punish players who choose a certain alignment.  Its purpose is to escalate the tension between dis-similar groups while at the same time allowing similar alignments to get along together in ways not currently possible.

 

Self-Selection occurs during the first spawn-in on a server.  However, re-selecting an alignment would be possible at certain intervals as well.  Restrictions on when or how often the self-selection could occur would be in-place to prevent players from trying to manipulate the system.

 

Part 2: Benefits of Self-Selected Alignments

 

“Hero” Benefits:

 

If self-selecting Hero as your alignment, you should get certain benefits while in-game.  Examples of benefits could include:

 

• Heroes can see other Heroes more easily.  Exact methods of implementing this could vary.  Visual clues, increased name recognition, player list noted as Hero, etc.  The goal would simply be for other heroes to recognize other heroes in proximity faster/more easily.
• Geographic benefits could be implemented in such a way that sections on the map would provide benefits only to heroes.  Benefits designed to make it attractive for heroes to congregate in a certain geographic areas would create hot spots of heroes.  For example, maybe hero homes in these “hero” areas would allow for increased storage capacity, be better disguised/camouflaged, and/or have an auto door shutting ability (in case of danger).  A self-selected Hero would not be required to build a home in this area, it would simply be an option if you wanted the extra benefits it afforded.  Likewise, it would not prevent a bandit from building a bandit home in the area.  However, bandits would quickly find that building a home in amongst heroes would not be the best way to assure survival.
• Increased carrying capacity.  Since heroes aren't “on the run” they can carry more on their person/in their pack than a bandit can.

 

“Bandit” Benefits:

 

If Self-Selecting Bandit as your alignment, you should also get certain benefits while in-game.  Benefits for bandits could be similar to that of hero, but in reverse.  Examples:

 

• Bandits can recognize other bandits with faster/easier means.
• Geographic areas for bandits to build bandit homes.  Similar to the benefits of heroes building hero homes in hero areas. 
• Increased running distance/speed.  Being “on the run” makes bandits lighter and faster.  A hero isn't going to out-run a bandit.

 

“Undisclosed” Benefits:

 

If Self-Selecting Undisclosed as your alignment, your benefit is your anonymity.  You’re harder to recognize, and maybe have more stealthy qualities.  You are also not immediately noticed as a mortal enemy of a hero or bandit so you can move around the world with less risk.

 

Part 3: Advanced Reputation System

 

In addition to the self-selected humanity alignment, each individual player will have a “Reputation”.  The Reputation will be tied to the players’ self-selected humanity.  For example, if a player selects their humanity as a hero, they will either get positive hero reputation (for doing hero actions), or negative hero reputation (for doing bandit actions).  Vice-versa for Bandits.  Undisclosed players will also have a Reputation, they will either get positive hero points or positive bandit points.  Other players can see your reputation.  The more it is in any one direction, the easier it would be to see the reputation.

 

Repercussions of a player’s reputation will manifest in various ways.  However, it should be noted that the player’s self-selected humanity has a big impact on the severity of the repercussions.  For example, if a player self-selects Hero as their humanity, then doing bandit actions will very quickly get you negative hero reputation.  Whereas if you were Undisclosed, doing the same bandit action, would get you less bandit reputation.  Doing the same action if you had self-selected your humanity as a bandit would get you positive bandit reputation points.

 

Ways to earn positive or negative reputation points:

 

• Handcuff/steal from other players
• Shoot at other players
• Kill other players
• Shoot at other players vehicles (requires a vehicle registration ability)
• Destroy other players vehicles (requires a vehicle registration ability)
• Steal other players vehicles (requires a vehicle registration ability)

 

Healing other players, killing zombies, etc. do not give positive or negative points in any fashion.  Your self-selection humanity determines how many points you get for each above action and whether those are positive or negative points.  There would also have to be some “self-defense” recognition so defending one’s self does not issue points against one’s reputation (or very minimal points).

 

In addition to the points that accumulate on the player’s reputation, there could also be other items that ‘attach’ to a players rep.  For example, if a hero kills a bandit, that hero would get positive hero points.  However, what if after that bandit was killed, he/she could put a bounty on that hero’s rep?  Likewise, if a bandit killed a hero, that hero could attach a warrant to the bandit’s rep.  These bounties and warrants would be like badges of honor to the players and would grow as their skill and time grew in-game.  However, having higher bounties and warrants would also make that player more of a target.  Their Reputation will proceed them, if you will. 

 

 

Conclusion:

 

Having a Humanity/Reputation system that makes people want to play as a bandit, hero, or be indifferent will create more tension and reduce frustration.  Bandits will be more likely to band together as will heroes.  Geographic hot-spots will make certain areas more dangerous than others.  But if you’re out looking for danger, maybe that is a good thing?  Over time, heroes will become more heroic and bandits will become more evil.  As their respective reputation grows, they will find more people to band around them.  Having a healthy good versus evil (with other in-between) will create a game that is more than just looting or killing on sight.

Edited October 4, 2013 by ArmyofSolo

[rossums 2190]

I don't think that giving benefits to certain players due to their playstyle would be a very good idea, it really imbalances the PvP aspect of the game.

Not sure what benefit being able to detect other bandits/heroes nearby would do, other than give players a heads up to a PvP scenario before it's even happened.

The game and your story is meant to be based on the choices you make, being able to identify as a 'hero' or 'bandit' before earning the title just trivialises it all, really.

[ArmyofSolo 1]

Each type of player receives a 'benefit' so it doesn't imbalance anything.  Not only that, the benefits are not PvP related per say.

 

Being a hero and being able to recognize another hero has nothing to do with a PvP scenario, just the opposite.  As a hero, you wouldn't want to attack another hero unless absolutely necessary.  As it stands now, you have no way of knowing other than to get close enough and see if the person shoots you.  If they shoot at you = not a hero.  It would be nice if there was a better way.

 

In life, the choice to be a good guy or a bad guy is a conscious decision.  You make it before you do good or bad actions.  Only your reputation is based on the history of your actions.  Are you saying that people don't make a conscious decision on if they are good or bad?  That they somehow only find out once others label their actions?

 

 

 

I don't think that giving benefits to certain players due to their playstyle would be a very good idea, it really imbalances the PvP aspect of the game.

Not sure what benefit being able to detect other bandits/heroes nearby would do, other than give players a heads up to a PvP scenario before it's even happened.

The game and your story is meant to be based on the choices you make, being able to identify as a 'hero' or 'bandit' before earning the title just trivialises it all, really.

[Bludy 324]

beside that i cannot see this happening..

 

i'd give to bandits the capability to self blood trasfuse but risking to damage a vein and loosing the blood and risking an infection while having a debuff on aim with a rifle due to the pain for a short period.

 

i'd give heroes a bonus on heals performed on others.

 

surivors should have no bonus.

 

i don't like the squad type system you propose, but i like the role selection thing and the reputation(this should come also without humanity and be viewable from lobby). no names displayed online though..only ol' trust.

[HazZarD87 166]

If law and order where to dissapear I wouldn't gain any "benefits" by behaving a certain way. This stuff is far too gamey for dayz.

[ArmyofSolo 1]

I completely disagree.  There may be a short period of time where you'd hold-up by yourself, but over time you would find like minded individuals and start working together.  As you will notice, the 'benefits' I listed primarily relate to working/living/coordinating with other like minded individuals.  You seriously don't think good honest people would team up and live close together for the greater good of their group?  Not only that, you would start to recognize the other local like minded individuals much easier as you got to know the surroundings.

 

 

If law and order where to dissapear I wouldn't gain any "benefits" by behaving a certain way. This stuff is far too gamey for dayz.

[ArmyofSolo 1]

I have a hard time with the no names online thing.  On one hand, I can understand the logic behind not showing names, on the other hand, there should be some way to recognize the people you game with day-in and day-out.  In real life, people are unique enough that you can remember and recognize them from a distance.  Not only from the way the look and dress, but also from the way the move and how big/small they are.  That isn't possible in the game currently.  In my opinion, it is something that needs a solution.  I don't know how you do it without showing names (with a certain amount of focus).

 

 

beside that i cannot see this happening..

 

i'd give to bandits the capability to self blood trasfuse but risking to damage a vein and loosing the blood and risking an infection while having a debuff on aim with a rifle due to the pain for a short period.

 

i'd give heroes a bonus on heals performed on others.

 

surivors should have no bonus.

 

i don't like the squad type system you propose, but i like the role selection thing and the reputation(this should come also without humanity and be viewable from lobby). no names displayed online though..only ol' trust.

[Hetstaine 10852]

re the above, i am hoping in the SA we get enough character customisation that we can recognise at least our immediate friends better. 

 

Have you read this thread HERE 

[SalamanderAnder (DayZ) 1747]

Bandits will self align as heroes to more effectively bandit. So there's a huge hole in your idea, for starters. Furthermore, the very mention of the word "safe-zone" or anything to that effect is going to go down in flames on this forum. You should know that, since your topic post implies that you've used the search function before... even if your post count doesn't.

 

Also, what Hetstaine just said.

Edited October 4, 2013 by SalamanderAnder

[Villktveir 2]

Look just as much human beings we are, we alway have to change everything. I think how game is now, makes the game so perfect. And if we were to change it too much it would turn into a RolePlayingGame instead of a survival pvp game.  Many of your suggestions are great and well thought through but im not sure that they would fit the survival theme that this game has already.
However this suggestion would be a good idea for a mod to the Standalone when that's out. that way people could choose rather than being stuck with something that they don't want. :)

Edited October 4, 2013 by Villktveir

[ArmyofSolo 1]

If it's robust enough to make everyone look unique, then the character customization would be a good thing.  I'm just not sure in a game, you can make people look different enough to make them recognizable on sight.

 

re the above, i am hoping in the SA we get enough character customisation that we can recognise at least our immediate friends better. 

 

Have you read this thread HERE 

[ArmyofSolo 1]

I agree, there would be plenty of bandits that would self select themselves as a hero, at least to start.  Just as in real life, some people 'pretend' to be good, when in actuality that are bad.  However, I somewhat addressed this in Part 3, the reputation.  If someone self selects themselves as a hero, if they play like a bandit the effects are amplified and will get lots of negative hero points towards their rep.  The more negative your rep, the more obvious it would be that you are not actually a hero.  At that point, you lose the 'benefits' of being a bandit, and your hero self classification is no longer a disguise.  It would end up being a negative in the long run for a bandit to self select their alignment as a hero.  FYI, killing a "hero" with negative hero points, gives the most positive hero points (to the hero doing the killing).  A bandit who self selects hero would quickly become the biggest target out there.

 

I also didn't mention anything about a "safe zone".  Only an area on the map that would help coordinate locations for like minded players.  I don't think I said anything about not being able to be killed there.

 

Bandits will self align as heroes to more effectively bandit. So there's a huge hole in your idea, for starters. Furthermore, the very mention of the word "safe-zone" or anything to that effect is going to go down in flames on this forum. You should know that, since your topic post implies that you've used the search function before... even if your post count doesn't.

 

Also, what Hetstaine just said.

Edited October 4, 2013 by ArmyofSolo

[ArmyofSolo 1]

While I think the idea would work, and would ultimately add excitement and additional value (playability) to the game, I understand that not everyone feels the same way.  Honestly, my idea/post is only a overall vision and not all the details are spelled-out.  Nonetheless, I think the "Current Problem" I noted is mainly accurate.  If nothing is done, then I don't see the problem changing too much....

 

Current Problem: 

 

With the current humanity system, playing as a Hero, Civilian, or Bandit is rather pointless.  All three are required for an immersive and entertaining experience, but manipulations in the current humanity system prevent accurate alignments.  As a result, the tension/conflict between the three alignments is reduced and funnels people into a shoot on sight mentality.

 

Look just as much human beings we are, we alway have to change everything. I think how game is now, makes the game so perfect. And if we were to change it too much it would turn into a RolePlayingGame instead of a survival pvp game.  Many of your suggestions are great and well thought through but im not sure that they would fit the survival theme that this game has already.
However this suggestion would be a good idea for a mod to the Standalone when that's out. that way people could choose rather than being stuck with something that they don't want. :)

[SalamanderAnder (DayZ) 1747]

Playing as a bandit, hero, or survivor are not "pointless." They are simply side-effects of your natural behavior as a player. You play DayZ to survive. Your decisions affect those outcomes, just like your "reputation" idea. So again, what exactly is the point? What you described is exactly how the humanity system works now, except that everyone starts out exactly the same, which is how it should be. It's just not logical to allow players to choose "factions" and then get special information - for example, "the ability to see other heroes more easily."

 

Let me break it down for you why this would fail. Bandits want to kill heroes. So they would align as heroes so they could get "more carrying capacity" (what the actual fuck by the way) and the ability to see hero players through trees, also giving them access to locations of hero camps. Then they would use these abilities and information to systematically hunt other heroes, rendering all your features completely pointless to begin with.

[ArmyofSolo 1]

Oh young grasshopper, I am not sure I agree with your statement.  You see, as I stated above, one's reputation is drastically affected by how one actual behaves.  So if a bandit self-selects a hero alignment so "he can see other heroes through tree's" (your words, not mine), that would only cause their own death.  Once the "hero" bandit killed his first few heroes, he would have larges amounts of negative hero rep.  Actual heroes would now be able to view him and see his rep from a further distance due to his negative hero rep (further than the bandit could see them).  Not through tree's as you somewhat awkwardly stated, but within visual range (which is amplified with the use of scopes and/or binos).  Advantage hero.  You see, one's reputation has an actual impact.  It would be better for that "hero" bandit just to have chosen his self-alignment as a bandit.  He would then be on equal footing with the hero, not at a disadvantage. 

 

I also think you missed the point of the special information/benefits.  First, it isn't a "faction" it is a simple statement as to what type of person you are proclaiming to be(good, bad, or indifferent).  It also isn't to give certain players advantage over other players per say.  It's a motivational tool to create tension amongst dis-similar groups (bandits versus heroes) by creating some level of cooperation amongst like groups.  This reduces the urge to kill on sight, by adding real reputation consequences to those who aren't who they say they are.  It also urges geographic co-habitation, even though it would not be a requirement.

 

Honestly, I think it is hard to change peoples minds that the current system isn't broken (which it absolutely is).  It's easier just to shoot at people you see and then go farm some zombies so you retain your humanity.  I guess some people like that?  I do find it a bit weird that people insist that the current system is the most realistic, and therefore the best choice.  I just don't agree with that.  I don't think in "the real zombie apocalypse" people would kill everyone they see, then go farm zombies to they get to keep their hero clothing.   Strange other people don't feel the same way I do.  You know what they say though.... opinions are like bung-holes..... everyone has one.

 

Playing as a bandit, hero, or survivor are not "pointless." They are simply side-effects of your natural behavior as a player. You play DayZ to survive. Your decisions affect those outcomes, just like your "reputation" idea. So again, what exactly is the point? What you described is exactly how the humanity system works now, except that everyone starts out exactly the same, which is how it should be. It's just not logical to allow players to choose "factions" and then get special information - for example, "the ability to see other heroes more easily."

 

Let me break it down for you why this would fail. Bandits want to kill heroes. So they would align as heroes so they could get "more carrying capacity" (what the actual fuck by the way) and the ability to see hero players through trees, also giving them access to locations of hero camps. Then they would use these abilities and information to systematically hunt other heroes, rendering all your features completely pointless to begin with.

Edited October 4, 2013 by ArmyofSolo

[SalamanderAnder (DayZ) 1747]

Oh young grasshopper, I am not sure I agree with your statement.  You see, as I stated above, one's reputation is drastically affected by how one actual behaves.  So if a bandit self-selects a hero alignment so "he can see other heroes through tree's" (your words, not mine), that would only cause their own death.  Once the "hero" bandit killed his first few heroes, he would have larges amounts of negative hero rep.  Actual heroes would now be able to view him and see his rep from a further distance due to his negative hero rep (further than the bandit could see them).  Not through tree's as you somewhat awkwardly stated, but within visual range (which is amplified with the use of scopes and/or binos).  Advantage hero.  You see, one's reputation has an actual impact.  It would be better for that "hero" bandit just to have chosen his self-alignment as a bandit.  He would then be on equal footing with the hero, not at a disadvantage. 

 

I also think you missed the point of the special information/benefits.  First, it isn't a "faction" it is a simple statement as to what type of person you are proclaiming to be(good, bad, or indifferent).  It also isn't to give certain players advantage over other players per say.  It's a motivational tool to create tension amongst dis-similar groups (bandits versus heroes) by creating some level of cooperation amongst like groups.  This reduces the urge to kill on sight, by adding real reputation consequences to those who aren't who they say they are.  It also urges geographic co-habitation, even though it would not be a requirement.

 

Honestly, I think it is hard to change peoples minds that the current system isn't broken (which it absolutely is).  It's easier just to shoot at people you see and then go farm some zombies so you retain your humanity.  I guess some people like that?  I do find it a bit weird that people insist that the current system is the most realistic, and therefore the best choice.  I just don't agree with that.  I don't think in "the real zombie apocalypse" people would kill everyone they see, then go farm zombies to they get to keep their hero clothing.   Strange other people don't feel the same way I do.  You know what they say though.... opinions are like bung-holes..... everyone has one.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Or I could just walk up to you and use direct chat and say "Hello, I'm friendly!"

 

And then blam. Shoot you in the face. Guess what. People already do that. We don't need to "register" with heros or bandits or undisclosed and then earn a "reputation" to replace humanity. Humanity is personal, case by case, and unique to the individual. And just so you know, the Standalone will not have a humanity system at all, so the suggestion is completely irrelevant. People will choose their own clothing and their own way of behaving, and thereby gain reputations of their own.

 

Clearly if you think bandits+heros+"undisclosed"=humanity, then you have a very flawed definition of the word. Humanity is simply a reflection of your behavior. basically what you are proposing is team dethmatch, which is highly unrealistic. Don't be condescending towards me, I'm older than you here, young grasshopper.

Edited October 4, 2013 by SalamanderAnder

[Inception. 9443]

"Increased running distance/speed.  Being “on the run” makes bandits lighter and faster.  A hero isn't going to out-run a bandit."
"For example, maybe hero homes in these “hero” areas would allow for increased storage capacity,"

 

No extra abilities for doing something, no random "increased storage capacity" nor random extra camouflage for being in a certain area and being a hero [likewise for bandits]. If you want to have more storage capacity, you find more things to place your items in. If you want your "base" to be more camouflaged, you find superior materials.

 

And what of these "homes" you speak of? Do you suggest that items can be stored and kept "safe"? Nothing should be safe in DayZ.

 

I despise these ideas--however you're not the first to give them.

[ArmyofSolo 1]

I can appreciate your dislike of them.  If you want a true survival game and that's it, then you would dislike them.  Personally, no storage, nothing to build, nothing to work towards = walking/running simulator.  Not fun for me.  

 

 

"Increased running distance/speed.  Being “on the run” makes bandits lighter and faster.  A hero isn't going to out-run a bandit."
"For example, maybe hero homes in these “hero” areas would allow for increased storage capacity,"

 

No extra abilities for doing something, no random "increased storage capacity" nor random extra camouflage for being in a certain area and being a hero [likewise for bandits]. If you want to have more storage capacity, you find more things to place your items in. If you want your "base" to be more camouflaged, you find superior materials.

 

And what of these "homes" you speak of? Do you suggest that items can be stored and kept "safe"? Nothing should be safe in DayZ.

 

I despise these ideas--however you're not the first to give them.

 

[ArmyofSolo 1]

Are you trying to prove my point for me?  You're doing a good job of it.  That's exactly the situation I want to avoid.  I don't want to walk up to a hero, say Hello, I'm Friendly, then get shot in the face.  I don't think anyone likes that, that is why most people just kill on sight.

 

I am not hung-up on the word "humanity", I only used that word since that is the word that is currently used.  Call it Disposition, call it Good, bad, or indiferent, I don't care what word is used.

 

Forgive me for being condescending, I can't help myself sometimes.  That, and I like to see how people react to it.  :)

 

 

 

Or I could just walk up to you and use direct chat and say "Hello, I'm friendly!"

 

And then blam. Shoot you in the face. Guess what. People already do that. We don't need to "register" with heros or bandits or undisclosed and then earn a "reputation" to replace humanity. Humanity is personal, case by case, and unique to the individual. And just so you know, the Standalone will not have a humanity system at all, so the suggestion is completely irrelevant. People will choose their own clothing and their own way of behaving, and thereby gain reputations of their own.

 

Clearly if you think bandits+heros+"undisclosed"=humanity, then you have a very flawed definition of the word. Humanity is simply a reflection of your behavior. basically what you are proposing is team dethmatch, which is highly unrealistic. Don't be condescending towards me, I'm older than you here, young grasshopper.

[SalamanderAnder (DayZ) 1747]

Are you trying to prove my point for me?  You're doing a good job of it.  That's exactly the situation I want to avoid.  I don't want to walk up to a hero, say Hello, I'm Friendly, then get shot in the face.  I don't think anyone likes that, that is why most people just kill on sight.

 

 

Then you would realize why your idea doesn't actually avoid it at all. You would see a hero player, walk up to him, and then blam, he'd shoot you in the face because actually he was a bandit who chose a hero skin. Every time we go around your argument falls into the same hole. Why would you allow people to set their own skins if skins are based on reputation? It makes more sense to simply start everyone at neutral and then assign "reputation" (a.k.a humanity) for actions that they do. but then, that's how the humanity system works right now.

 

And as Inception pointed out, DayZ is never going to give players bonus carrying capacity or running speed for their humanity. Everything you get you have to earn. Even if they allow base building or fortification of existing structures, they wouldn't be safe from theft or use by other players.

[lipemr 160]

beside that i cannot see this happening..

 

i'd give to bandits the capability to self blood trasfuse but risking to damage a vein and loosing the blood and risking an infection while having a debuff on aim with a rifle due to the pain for a short period.

 

i'd give heroes a bonus on heals performed on others.

 

surivors should have no bonus.

 

i don't like the squad type system you propose, but i like the role selection thing and the reputation(this should come also without humanity and be viewable from lobby). no names displayed online though..only ol' trust.

 

yeah, buff the bandits so they can KoS even more, you're a genius sir.

Edited October 5, 2013 by lipemr

[Lady Kyrah 1110]

Unless i'm mistaken, humanity is going away, so i don't see any point in talking about it.

[SteelKnife 25]

Then you would realize why your idea doesn't actually avoid it at all. You would see a hero player, walk up to him, and then blam, he'd shoot you in the face because actually he was a bandit who chose a hero skin. Every time we go around your argument falls into the same hole. Why would you allow people to set their own skins if skins are based on reputation? It makes more sense to simply start everyone at neutral and then assign "reputation" (a.k.a humanity) for actions that they do. but then, that's how the humanity system works right now.

And as Inception pointed out, DayZ is never going to give players bonus carrying capacity or running speed for their humanity. Everything you get you have to earn. Even if they allow base building or fortification of existing structures, they wouldn't be safe from theft or use by other players.

When you can see someone from farther away you don't want to walk up to them even if they are hero. For me It would be common sense to not to walk up to some because they might be tracking a bandit or looting. If they were to see you first and walk up to you I could see the reason why you would say they would shoot you in the face. But the reputation could show how he was a "fake hero". Everyone that is neutral can be either way until the game actually changes their skin, even then they could find camo cloths, ect... Inside the vanilla dayz. If the reputation was implemented, would other types of ghillie suits or camo reduce view distance. Many more parts of the game could be explained to the effect of the rest of the game.

[Tumoa 359]

humanity is bad system this type of game so it shouldn't be there