First vs Third Person Discussion (Dslyecxi video)

[aeinola 25]

The player base being divided IS the issue. If I played alone it wouldn't be that much of an issue for me, but I have friends and they want the easier route and so to play with them I have to go to the easy route and play where the exploits are allowed and make use of them and lower my enjoyment of the game. 

Your situation is unfortunate. I think most of FPV players dont have the same problem so the problem is unpopulated FPV only servers.

[mercules 1290]

Your situation is unfortunate. I think most of FPV players dont have the same problem so the problem is unpopulated FPV only servers.

 

Which is them being in the same boat. Friends and associates as well as other players insist on going with the easier route and eventually we follow suit to join them. 

If you were looking for the possibility of encountering other players would you join a server with 2 people or one with 12? Server populations tend to have critical mass so that once one goes over 5 people start joining it, once it passes 20 more and more flock to it. Since it is common to find 5 people who want to play a slightly easier version of the game than it is to find 5 that want to play a slightly harder version that means a lot. 

[Jamz 253]

Ok, random thought..

 

A big argument in favor of 3rd person is that it fills in the gaps that aren't possible to emulate in FPV.  Call it peripheral vision, sensation of something hitting the back of your body, small barely audible bits of noise not generated in game (like breathing for example) that you might pick up on and "sense" that someone was near, maybe even call it personal space or a 6th sense.

 

So.. what if in TPV, vision was somehow limited?  Like, a fog or focus blur or some other distortion effect that leaves an area of some radius perfectly visible around the player, with the video getting harder to see the further away it is?  Things like using TPV to look around corners would be substantially less useful.  And it could be driven by the client, offloading the work from the server. 

 

What pops into mind when I think about an analogy is the "darklight vision" they had in Planetside that you could use to detect cloaked players.  It effectively cut off your normal vision anywhere other than your immediate surroundings, but any cloaked nearby units would glow brightly.

 

Sure, it'd be hackable since its on the client machine, but it'd be harder to do than run a simple script like in the Arma2 engine, and might be detectable with whatever hack prevention is in place.

 

Anyway, just a thought.

 

Interesting, the blur would have to completely obscure vision over walls and around corners so I don't know how you would do it without making it aesthetically unacceptable. I thought the best way would be having the TPV pull in closer eventually to FPV when you got closer to a wall or corner so you couldn't physically see over or around. A blurring would have to completely shadow what was on the other side, was that what you mean?

[LeeHarveyEnfield 311]

keep 3rd person please

 

What use is hiding behind cover if you cant see clearly over it?

[tommes 331]

Your situation is unfortunate. I think most of FPV players dont have the same problem so the problem is unpopulated FPV only servers.

Classic hen egg problem. If the FPV only players would bunch up there probably would be more populated FPV only servers...so there obviously is some reason preventing that from happening.

If you have a group of 3 or more players chances are at least one is insisting on TPV enabled. Of said group the majority will be neutral with maybe another guy who explicitly wants FPV. So the TPV guy/s draw in the neutrals and therefore are much more likely to have their way. So TPV gets more weight than it should have.

[rossums 2190]

keep 3rd person please

 

What use is hiding behind cover if you cant see clearly over it?

As cover?

If you want to see where they are, stick your head out.

What is the point in pinning someone down behind an object if they can sit behind said object and see clearly over it and find out your location?

It completely removes the tactical  aspect if you can just spot them from safety so they are unable to flank or move forward, all it turns into is a game of 'Whoever gets bored and moves first gets shot'.

[mercules 1290]

As cover?

If you want to see where they are, stick your head out.

What is the point in pinning someone down behind an object if they can sit behind said object and see clearly over it and find out your location?

It completely removes the tactical  aspect if you can just spot them from safety so they are unable to flank or move forward, all it turns into is a game of 'Whoever gets bored and moves first gets shot'.

 

You forgot that it sometimes turns into, "Whoever ends up between two players gets shot." since the outside players can keep a piece of cover while watching for the other one to move and can tell when the inside one is not looking their way so they can risk sticking enough out to shoot. Without TPV they would still have a slight advantage but they would have to risk putting eyes on the middle player and might miss his moving or not realize he has a gun pointing right at the spot they are going to peek from. :)

ARMA II has a pretty hand "lean" feature that works wonderfully. I miss it in other games.

[LeeHarveyEnfield 311]

You forgot that it sometimes turns into, "Whoever ends up between two players gets shot." since the outside players can keep a piece of cover while watching for the other one to move and can tell when the inside one is not looking their way so they can risk sticking enough out to shoot. Without TPV they would still have a slight advantage but they would have to risk putting eyes on the middle player and might miss his moving or not realize he has a gun pointing right at the spot they are going to peek from. :)

ARMA II has a pretty hand "lean" feature that works wonderfully. I miss it in other games.

 

 

As cover?

If you want to see where they are, stick your head out.

What is the point in pinning someone down behind an object if they can sit behind said object and see clearly over it and find out your location?

It completely removes the tactical  aspect if you can just spot them from safety so they are unable to flank or move forward, all it turns into is a game of 'Whoever gets bored and moves first gets shot'.

 

couldn't agree less.

 

If I want a full on hardcore military simulation experience I go play arma on Hardcore.

 

But when I want to blow off steam and just immerse myself in the wanton slaughter of players I play dayz,

and third person plays a massive role in helping me both kill other players and avoid being killed by them.

 

Let's not forget this wonderful feature is available to all so everyone wins.

Edited September 12, 2013 by LeeHarveyEnfield

[Siberian (DayZ) 527]

.

If you have a group of 3 or more players chances are at least one is insisting on TPV enabled. Of said group the majority will be neutral with maybe another guy who explicitly wants FPV. So the TPV guy/s draw in the neutrals and therefore are much more likely to have their way. So TPV gets more weight than it should have.

 ???

 

ummm if the MAJORITY want a certain thing, that means their opinion in any given group carry's more weight.

 

if one guy out of a group of 10 wants something different how is it fair to the other 9 ??

 

you "FPV or get out guys" are hilarous in your side of view..

[aeinola 25]

Which is them being in the same boat. Friends and associates as well as other players insist on going with the easier route and eventually we follow suit to join them. 

If you were looking for the possibility of encountering other players would you join a server with 2 people or one with 12? Server populations tend to have critical mass so that once one goes over 5 people start joining it, once it passes 20 more and more flock to it. Since it is common to find 5 people who want to play a slightly easier version of the game than it is to find 5 that want to play a slightly harder version that means a lot. 

 

Classic hen egg problem. If the FPV only players would bunch up there probably would be more populated FPV only servers...so there obviously is some reason preventing that from happening.

If you have a group of 3 or more players chances are at least one is insisting on TPV enabled. Of said group the majority will be neutral with maybe another guy who explicitly wants FPV. So the TPV guy/s draw in the neutrals and therefore are much more likely to have their way. So TPV gets more weight than it should have.

This is a tricky problem and i understand why you want TPV removed from Standalone. I just think there should be better way to deal with this problem than force huge amount of players to play FPV only. I have no solution for this and the same time i think its unfair to disable TPV from all players. I also think its stupid to debate which view is better or the right way to play. These are opinions, not facts.

[mercules 1290]

This is a tricky problem and i understand why you want TPV removed from Standalone. I just think there should be better way to deal with this problem than force huge amount of players to play FPV only. I have no solution for this and the same time i think its unfair to disable TPV from all players. I also think its stupid to debate which view is better or the right way to play. These are opinions, not facts.

Fact: Developer stated there were exploits in TPV. 

 

Not an opinion of mine even though I agree.

[aeinola 25]

Fact: Developer stated there were exploits in TPV. 

 

Not an opinion of mine even though I agree.

Lol, im not saying exploits are not facts. Im saying if a player thinks TPV is better than FPV even if there is exploits, that my friend is an opinion.

[mercules 1290]

Lol, im not saying exploits are not facts. Im saying if a player thinks TPV is better than FPV even if there is exploits, that my friend is an opinion.

 

Yeah it is an opinion. What is your point? 

 

Oh wait, do you think that opinions are never wrong?  :D

[Ken Bean 174]

Yeah it is an opinion. What is your point? 

 

Oh wait, do you think that opinions are never wrong?  :D

 

Because having a game mechanics which lets the player do things, which are not realistic, is not always an exploit.

 

Using your spiderman senses also is not an exploit if you play a spiderman game.

 

It even isn't an unfair game mechanics, since everyone could make use of it.

 

Now I see, there are some camper excessively making use of it. If they don't have the 3rd person view, they'd just sit in a pine tree. And then? Exploit? I think we should face it: Annoying camper are annoying because they camp, not because of the 3rd person.

Edited September 12, 2013 by Ken Bean

[aeinola 25]

Yeah it is an opinion. What is your point? 

 

Oh wait, do you think that opinions are never wrong?  :D

You quoted this post from me:

 

This is a tricky problem and i understand why you want TPV removed from Standalone. I just think there should be better way to deal with this problem than force huge amount of players to play FPV only. I have no solution for this and the same time i think its unfair to disable TPV from all players. I also think its stupid to debate which view is better or the right way to play. These are opinions, not facts.

And answered with pointing out a fact:

 

Fact: Developer stated there were exploits in TPV. 

 

Not an opinion of mine even though I agree.

 

So i thought that you did not understand the difference between fact and opinion in my post, so i explained it. Nothing else...

Edited September 12, 2013 by aeinola

[Ken Bean 174]

In my opinion DayZ is not a first person shooter, therefore we could remove the first person view entirely without losing its essence, being a survival game. In this case we'd need another fight sytem / interface. Well, iron sights and scopes are nice, so we could keep them. At the end there could be 1st person only if you have a weapon and hit the right mouse button or using your binoculars. I wouldn't miss much, to be honest.

 

Well, atm we have both. I'm fine with. Just doont understand why the 1st person lover (up to 60 percent if you believe some of these polls) don't play on 1st person servers. If someone favours choclet ice, he can get it. No one forces him to eat strawberry.

Edited September 12, 2013 by Ken Bean

[Heiduk 265]

But when I want to blow off steam and just immerse myself in the wanton slaughter of players I play dayz,

and third person plays a massive role in helping me both kill other players and avoid being killed by them.

 

I'm afraid you may end up greatly disappointed when standalone is released.

[mercules 1290]

Because having a game mechanics which lets the player do things, which are not realistic, is not always an exploit.

 

Using your spiderman senses also is not an exploit if you play a spiderman game.

 

It even isn't an unfair game mechanics, since everyone could make use of it.

 

Now I see, there are some camper excessively making use of it. If they don't have the 3rd person view, they'd just sit in a pine tree. And then? Exploit? I think we should face it: Annoying camper are annoying because they camp, not because of the 3rd person.

 

It goes beyond campers as I have stated numerous times in this thread. They are the most egregious exploit but not the only. Zombies don't get TPV making it really unfair against them. Sure they are NPCs but if Mr. Hall wants the focus to be on zombies and not just on other players removing the ability to exploit your view and see them without risking them seeing you is just as bad. 

Risk vrs Reward.

 

Knowledge is power, it is important. In a game like this where one mistake can lead to death and having to start over knowing what is around and making informed decisions is key. TPV lets you gain a large amount of knowledge for very little risk. It violently skews Risk vrs Reward in the direction of very little risk. Frankly it dumbs the game down. This is not only an opinion, but an opinion based off of thought and valid arguments. 

 

[mercules 1290]

Just doont understand 

 

Yep... we get that.

[Frytek 130]

AHAHAH... I know your plan for this thread, mods, I know it.

You want all the people rant and throw shit at each other in one thread. Clever.

But shhhh... or they hear...

[Ken Bean 174]

Yep... we get that.

Well nice, then explain it to me why those 60 percent play on 3rd person enabled server, if they like 1st person only better. Makes absolutely no sense, logicaly. Tis looks kind of very foolish to me, cant help but wonder. :-/

Well, you could argue there always is some misguided folks who just is fundamentaly confused and never gets the right direction...

Edited September 12, 2013 by Ken Bean

[aeinola 25]

Well nice, then explain it to me why those 60 percent play on 3rd person enabled server, if they like 1st person only better. Makes absolutely no sense, logicaly. Tis looks kind of very foolish to me, cant help but wonder. :-/

Well, you could argue there always is some misguided folks who just is fundamentaly confused and never gets the right direction...

I think there is lot of players (like Mercules) who has friends that wont play FPV only servers and then he has no choice than play with TPV or play without hes friends. That sucks big time! But im also sure there is a lot of players that are just too lazy to do something about the fact that there is no good populated FPV only servers out there and submits to the TPV enabled servers or just waits for standalone. The situation where Mercules is with his friends is a big problem. This problem should be fixed somehow. I hope the TPV fixes in standalone will at least narrow down the advantage from TPV vs FPV players.

[Ken Bean 174]

Risk vrs Reward.

 

Knowledge is power, it is important. In a game like this where one mistake can lead to death and having to start over knowing what is around and making informed decisions is key. TPV lets you gain a large amount of knowledge for very little risk. It violently skews Risk vrs Reward in the direction of very little risk. Frankly it dumbs the game down. This is not only an opinion, but an opinion based off of thought and valid arguments.

Which is not true, btw. In 3rd person you usually take way more risks than in 1st. Zeds are as aggro as they are in 1st person. You littteraly take more risks in 3rd p if you run through a town.

[Ken Bean 174]

I think there is lot of players (like Mercules) who has friends that wont play FPV only servers and then he has no choice than play with TPV or play without hes friends. That sucks big time! But im also sure there is a lot of players that are just too lazy to do something about the fact that there is no good populated FPV only servers out there and submits to the TPV enabled servers or just waits for standalone. The situation where Mercules is with his friends is a big problem. This problem should be fixed somehow. I hope the TPV fixes in standalone will at least narrow down the advantage from TPV vs FPV players.

These polls say 60%. The problem is - if you belive them - more than the half of all players are playing against their "stated" preference. Know what I think? 99% of the player play on 3rd person server because they like 3rd person enabled server better. But some of the forum folks believe they would be more "hardcore" if they would play on 1st person server (which they like less). But for the sake of being *superduperhardcore* they vote agains their preference. It's a often seen story that some kids try to play the hard dude, they imagine they would like to be, if they were Arnold Schwarzenegger, in the parallel universe.

Edited September 12, 2013 by Ken Bean

[mercules 1290]

Which is not true, btw. In 3rd person you usually take way more risks than in 1st. Zeds are as aggro as they are in 1st person. You littteraly take more risks in 3rd p if you run through a town.

 

Zeds agro based on seeing and hearing you. Ignore hearing because neither mode changes how much noise you make. 

 

In FPV you can not see a Zed if it doesn't have at least a chance of seeing you. This is not true for TPV. In that view you can see Zeds around corners and they can not see you. Ergo, Zeds have a greater chance of agroing against FPV players who have to actually risk agro to see the Zeds. 

You keep stating that it isn't different but having to expose yourself to view and agro to view the zeds and where they are going HAS to cause more cases of agro. Logic dictates that. TPV able to view zeds and determine where they are going and facing with 0% chance of aggro or FPV where you have at least a chance of aggro from being seen. This is a very basic concept, any positive number is greater than 0.