First vs Third Person Discussion (Dslyecxi video)

[mercules 1290]

;)

 

I think another thing that maybe could be done (no idea of logistics of coding/performance issues) would be to disable 3rd person as soon as you enter a building, therefore ridding you of your paranoid urban phobias to a degree, obviously we still have the wall issues, but it could be another step in the right direction with what Dean has already proposed.

 

That could help. It won't avoid things like standing behind a tree and having perfect vision of what is beyond the tree without peeking out one side or the other, but it would help. 

 

As said, I for myself don't use it as exploit. I just want to know whats going on with my virtual body. It gives me some kind of self awareness of the avatar in the world. In real life I'm still sitting in front of my computer. ;-)

If you dont get what I mean, go play Gothic 2 or 3 and eenjoy all the things your avatar in game can do. And you can watch him doing lots of stuff. They make the games more immersive and believable, providing more details and depth to the world.

 

UGH... any game in TPV makes me feel like I have a puppet or an action figure. "Dance puppet! Dance!" It makes me feel like I am playing with a toy. FPV puts me in the skin of the avatar and engages me. The newere Metroid games are excellent with their FPV and limited sight, they really draw a person in. 

[SoulHunter (DayZ) 233]

The Results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1pZqrOkddl42aICeOf7EBAGqAwEHgLwbiYJlIJj2Sil4/viewanalytics

The rates were not so stable at the beginning, but after a while the rate was like "66% for FPV" "33% for both FPV and TPV" and seems like after getting much more votes did not change this fact. The rates are still almost the same.

The poll on the forums shows that 70-75% of the forum members want FPV instead of TPV. This poll shows that 66% of the reddit users would prefer FPV over TPV. That is pretty much end of the research, I am guessing.

As a sight note, almost everyone (even those who don't want only FPV) seems to be well aware of the fact that the TPV is often used to cheat (like looking over fences, behind doors/corners/whatnot.).

I hope this community activity would enlighten some issues and help them to be solved more easily.

Thanks for participating the research everyone!

Regards

When I first posted this on the forums and reddit, there were about 150 votes. The rate was 66% for FPV, 4 for TPV and 30% for both views (FPV & TPV)

 

370 people until now. 133 people also here. So 503 people in total...

When I wrote this, there were 370 votes. The rate was 66% for FPV, 4 for TPV and 30% for both views (FPV & TPV)

And now:" https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1pZqrOkddl42aICeOf7EBAGqAwEHgLwbiYJlIJj2Sil4/viewanalytics "

There are 581 votes, yet the rates are the same. It is actually "AN AMAZING" result. Normally, the rates are similar when there are many and when there are a lot of them. But in this case, the rates remained always the same. I recall it having been like that when there are about 40-50 votes..

Conclusion: We have three clear base-points to make a clear assumption on the case now. We have been available to assume that the majority of the people would prefer FPV over TPV "in DayZ StandAlone" (which the question was). But we were unavailable to assume how many of the commynity members think the same.

Regarding the base-points we can take, we can now clearly assume that the amount of people that seek FPV is almost exactly 66%. I've said before that the rates would not change if a poll would be applied in reddit or somewhere else after a while and that the results would be similar to the ones we have in the forums. But I was simply wrong. The results on reddit have almost never been changed at all, which is a sign that the research has been made properly.

TBH they should of changed time by time when some other points about the subject appear. But due to it having been done impartially (I assume), there was no one going up against the poll or the way it is being held, whereas no negative speculation which means no big difference in the results.

Edited August 27, 2013 by SoulHunter

[mercules 1290]

How often you fell from a roof in real life because you accidentally prone a bit too far in first person mode?

Hanging in the air only having a bit of the legs on the roof happens to the best of us. :D

 

I've never fallen off the roof IRL for that reason(although I have fallen off roofs) and I haven't done it in DayZ either while playing in FPV. So no, it doesn't happen to the best of us because it hasn't happened to me and I am fairly certain I am not "the best of us". ;)

[Ken Bean 175]

UGH... any game in TPV makes me feel like I have a puppet or an action figure. "Dance puppet! Dance!" It makes me feel like I am playing with a toy. FPV puts me in the skin of the avatar and engages me. The newere Metroid games are excellent with their FPV and limited sight, they really draw a person in.

Yep, some apparently can't handle the 3rd Person. I still feel engaged. (Every child feels engaged and immersed while playing with puppets or toy soldiers since thousands of years. There in fact is no real immersion problem. Ever had a modell railroad? I did and it was awesome.)

Edited August 27, 2013 by Ken Bean

[RedNome 443]

When I first posted this on the forums and reddit, there were about 150 votes. The rate was 66% for FPV, 4 for TPV and 30% for both views (FPV & TPV)

 

When I wrote this, there were 370 votes. The rate was 66% for FPV, 4 for TPV and 30% for both views (FPV & TPV)

And now:" https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1pZqrOkddl42aICeOf7EBAGqAwEHgLwbiYJlIJj2Sil4/viewanalytics "

There are 581 votes, yet the rates are the same. It is actually "AN AMAZING" result. Normally, the rates are similar when there are many and when there are a lot of them. But in this case, the rates remained always the same. I recall it having been like that when there are about 40-50 votes..

Conclusion: We have three clear base-points to make a clear assumption on the case now. We have been available to assume that the majority of the people would prefer FPV over TPV "in DayZ StandAlone" (which the question was). But we were unavailable to assume how many of the commynity members think the same.

Regarding the base-points we can take, we can now clearly assume that the amount of people that seek FPV is almost exactly 66%. I've said before that the rates would not change if a poll would be applied in reddit or somewhere else after a while and that the results would be similar to the ones we have in the forums. But I was simply wrong. The results on reddit have almost never been changed at all, which is a sign that the research has been made properly.

TBH they should of changed time by time when some other points about the subject appear. But due to it having been done impartially (I assume), there was no one going up against the poll or the way it is being held, whereas no negative speculation which means no big difference in the results.

 

Still a miniscule fraction of the Dayz player base, so unfortunately these results are largely meaningless in the grand scheme of things I'm afraid.

 

Find a way to poll the entire Dayz player base and it's obvious the results would be totally different, you know it, I know it.

[SoulHunter (DayZ) 233]

Still a miniscule fraction of the Dayz player base, so unfortunately these results are largely meaningless in the grand scheme of things I'm afraid.

 

Find a way to poll the entire Dayz player base and it's obvious the results would be totally different, you know it, I know it.

I am not sure if you read the post properly. I don't want to report you just because I feel like you are trolling now.. So please make it clear and speak out what you actually want to say.

 

People like who said similar things ("Oh noes.. This poll is not legit! OP or someone else should make a poll on reddit and lets then see what the community thinks! Forums are for the people who do not play the mod, but play the forums instead!!!") and now there is a poll.

 

I am guessing that you are being confused with "I like FPV more than TPV but I feel the need to play in TPV" and "I play TPV because I like it more than FPV".

[mercules 1290]

Yep, some apparently can't handle the 3rd Person. I still feel engaged. (Every child feels engaged and immersed while playing with puppets or toy soldiers since thousands of years. There in fact is no real immersion problem. Ever had a modell railroad? I did and it was awesome.)

I play Warhammer and paint miniatures and create realistic looking terrain for the table. There are times I wish I could see the battlefield from the view of my models because I think it would be a lot more visceral than the 1k meter view I get from above them when playing. For me the most immersive thing when I was a child was a book, not an action figure, toy truck, or anything like that. I play Skyrim in FPV because it makes the world much different and the game much more interesting. 

This could be a difference in how our brains are wired but while I might feel connected to a character that I can see in TPV I do not feel their terror, shock, surprise like I do when I play a game that is in FPV. 

[Ken Bean 175]

I am not sure if you read the post properly. I don't want to report you just because I feel like you are trolling now.. So please make it clear and speak out what you actually want to say.

 

People like who said similar things ("Oh noes.. This poll is not legit! OP or someone else should make a poll on reddit and lets then see what the community thinks! Forums are for the people who do not play the mod, but play the forums instead!!!") and now there is a poll.

 

I am guessing that you are being confused with "I like FPV more than TPV but I feel the need to play in TPV" and "I play TPV because I like it more than FPV".

He probably means that polls in certain forums may manipilate the results because player who are engaged in forums usually are not the average player type. They are in certain ways more evolved in such questions than other. And maybe already have different views because they have another problem awareness.

 

I play Warhammer and paint miniatures and create realistic looking terrain for the table. There are times I wish I could see the battlefield from the view of my models because I think it would be a lot more visceral than the 1k meter view I get from above them when playing. For me the most immersive thing when I was a child was a book, not an action figure, toy truck, or anything like that. I play Skyrim in FPV because it makes the world much different and the game much more interesting.

This could be a difference in how our brains are wired but while I might feel connected to a character that I can see in TPV I do not feel their terror, shock, surprise like I do when I play a game that is in FPV.

It's your personal preference but it doesn't apply to everyone. It depends how much of your brain, thoughts and phantasy is part of the game. I think that people with less phantasy feel more at home in first person.

Edited August 27, 2013 by Ken Bean

[RedNome 443]

I am not sure if you read the post properly. I don't want to report you just because I feel like you are trolling now.. So please make it clear and speak out what you actually want to say.

 

People like who said similar things ("Oh noes.. This poll is not legit! OP or someone else should make a poll on reddit and lets then see what the community thinks! Forums are for the people who do not play the mod, but play the forums instead!!!") and now there is a poll.

 

I am guessing that you are being confused with "I like FPV more than TPV but I feel the need to play in TPV" and "I play TPV because I like it more than FPV".

 

 

Dude, calm down man, all I'm saying is unless you're polling the majority of your player base, these sorts of polls are irrelevant anyway, whatever 'interesting' results may occur.

 

I assure you I was not attempting to troll you, not my style.

Edited August 27, 2013 by RedNome

[SoulHunter (DayZ) 233]

He probably means that polls in certain forums may manipilate the results because player who are engaged in forums usually are not the average player type. They are in certain ways more evolved in such questions than other. And maybe already have different views because they have another problem awareness.

And that is the point. The poll is not on the forums. That is the dam point dude.

[Ken Bean 175]

And that is the point. The poll is not on the forums. That is the dam point dude.

All these polls are on forums. I wouldn't have get to know it if you wouldn't have posted it here. ^^

(Pretty damn hard to find such a link on the streets.)

Edited August 27, 2013 by Ken Bean

[SoulHunter (DayZ) 233]

I assure you I was not attempting to troll you, not my style.

Could not be sure about it. Because I stated 4 base-points (said 3, cus I dont have exact numbers for when there were 40-50 votes) that can be considered just fine.

1:"40-50 votes, 66% FPV, 4%TPV, 30% FPV & TPV"

2:"150 votes, 66% FPV, 4%TPV, 30% FPV & TPV"

3:"370 votes, 66% FPV, 4%TPV, 30% FPV & TPV"

4:"581 votes 66% FPV, 4%TPV, 30% FPV & TPV"

I sometimes saw 3% for TPV and 31% for FPV & TPV. Whoever following the results can provide my correctness. The results have been public since there were about 150 votes.

 

I might have over-reacted due to knowing how properly this poll went on (must have been so for such results to be able to appear in the first place, as elaborated deeply before) and how many people participated in the research (calling a poll not legit when there are about 600 votes and where you are the one hosting that community activity, is not a nice thing to see tbh) and seeing someone calling the research unlegit.

 

I assure you that this kind of a result for any poll cannot be seen very easily.. Just saying.

Edited August 27, 2013 by SoulHunter

[RedNome 443]

Could not be sure about it. Because I stated 4 base-points (said 3, cus I dont have exact numbers for when there were 40-50 votes) that can be considered just fine.

1:"40-50 votes, 66% FPV, 4%TPV, 30% FPV & TPV"

2:"150 votes, 66% FPV, 4%TPV, 30% FPV & TPV"

3:"370 votes, 66% FPV, 4%TPV, 30% FPV & TPV"

4:"581 votes 66% FPV, 4%TPV, 30% FPV & TPV"

I sometimes saw 3% for TPV and 31% for FPV & TPV. Whoever following the results can provide my correctness. The results have been public since there were about 150 votes.

 

I might have over-reacted due to knowing how properly this poll went on (must have been so for such results to be able to appear in the first place, as elaborated deeply before) and how many people participated in the research (calling a poll not legit when there are about 600 votes and where you are the one hosting that community activity, is not a nice thing to see tbh) and seeing someone calling the research unlegit.

 

I assure you that this kind of a result for any poll cannot be seen very easily.. Just saying.

 

Not trying to belittle your work man, my point is that if you take the estimated 2,000,000 player base of Dayz, whether still active or not, that 600 votes is 0.03% of the total, so can't in anyway shape or form be taken as representative of the people playing or who have played Dayz.

 

But yes, agreed, the percentages for your poll staying consistent throughout is quite interesting.

Edited August 27, 2013 by RedNome

[Vicco 123]

In real life having a sniper somewhere is nothing which would be easy to spot. If he is somewhere in the bushes, you wont see anything. If hes in a house he could watch you through a window without you could notice him because e.g. of reflections in the window, because it is dark inside or because of a courtain. If he's on a roof, you have a better chance spotting him, if you get into a higher position. If he's just in the middle of the roof using only his ears if someone tries to sneak through the town, making noises sooner or later, you wont see him from the ground level anyway.

Exactly. Until the game provides "real life" hidey holes, "real life" ability to set up an ambush, 3P periscope is the substitute.

In "real life" every single house, barn, and industrial building would make a good ambush point.

I suppose these same guys would complain about every building being dark inside, while it's full daylight outside.

Not fair!

That's all tactical play style, and there will always be campers/ambushers.

Everybody knows the angles, and where campers can camp.

If the 3P periscope effect is removed, rooftop peekers will camp elsewhere, and kill the same guys. It won't make a difference to them.

I don't care what view the game uses, but it has to be playable for most people, including me.

I don't camp, and since "infection" I don't stay too close to walls to peek around corners, since a zed might clobber me.

But like Rocket, I prefer mostly 3P. I don't care if he nerfs it.

Campers won't either. They'll kill the same guys - the guys who walk right into "You Are Dead."

[Ken Bean 175]

The best and direct vote you can get is if you monitor the 1st person and 3rd person server situation and if you could monitor the usage.

I don't have any data but my feeling tells me that servers with enabled 3rd person are more popular atm.

The question is why.

Some say because 3rd-p would be easier, even though they demand it should be removed because they say 3rd-p would make pvp gaming a lot harder because other player are way harder to find.

How can it be easier and harder the same time?

If you ask me, then I would say the 3rd person view makes a lot of people feel very uncomfortable because the enemy could be everywhere (just like in real life). This in my point of view would mean that the game is more difficult if it offers the 3rd person view. They say it would not be more difficult, but unfair, even though, something is not known to be unfair as long as everyone has the same abilities (everyone can use 1st person or 3rd, so no one has an unfair advantage).

 

Exactly. Until the game provides "real life" hidey holes, "real life" ability to set up an ambush, 3P periscope is the substitute.

In "real life" every single house, barn, and industrial building would make a good ambush point.

I suppose these same guys would complain about every building being dark inside, while it's full daylight outside.

Not fair!

That's all tactical play style, and there will always be campers/ambushers.

Everybody knows the angles, and where campers can camp.

If the 3P periscope effect is removed, rooftop peekers will camp elsewhere, and kill the same guys. It won't make a difference to them.

I don't care what view the game uses, but it has to be playable for most people, including me.

I don't camp, and since "infection" I don't stay too close to walls to peek around corners, since a zed might clobber me.

But like Rocket, I prefer mostly 3P. I don't care if he nerfs it.

Campers won't either. They'll kill the same guys - the guys who walk right into "You Are Dead."

Absolutely agree. Its not like those campers are unvisible, they are visible but harder to find. It makes it a bit more realistic and counters a bit the lack of possibilities the game provides. Camper will camp anyway. It might be boring and unfair for most of us, but somehow not for them. DayZ is not the only game which has a problem with camper.

Edited August 27, 2013 by Ken Bean

[iashford 73]

I don't understand why people are over thinking this... Have an equal amount of TPV and FPS only servers. That way there is fairness in the playing field, and it'll be easily monitored on who likes what more.

I've suggested it many of times, I'm not sure why it's not getting considered... Max Payne 3 has a dynamic camera that zooms and moves away from a corner that you're trying to look around. Or if you're covering behind a small wall, the camera moves down so you can't look over it unless your peeking over. How is that hard to fix third person when games like Max Payne have provided the solution :S

[Siberian (DayZ) 527]

. How is that hard to fix third person when games like Max Payne have provided the solution :S

 

it adds to server load immensly..

[tommes 331]

Some arguments are indeed incedibly dumb.

so anyone who isnt interesting in just playing CoD style should GTFO ?

 

dayz mod or SA, isnt a FPS game, its WAYYYY more then that.

 

thats the VERY core issue here.

 

FPS gamers who just wanna shoot everything they see looking for the mystical hi-score.

I don't give a shit about highscore and CoD. I give loads of shits about fair play and not ridiculous game mechanics. Just because you are afraid of any player contact and prefer to play alone with yourself you put yourself on the moral high ground for not shooting other players other people choosing a different (not so lame) playstyle should have to suffer. Go and play some single player or coop stuff and be happy! DayZ however is designed for multiplayer. Without MP it would be pretty much pointless and nobody would have cared about it anyway. But in MP you need mechanics and rules to make it fair and not totally ridiculous. Period.

[tommes 331]

In real life having a sniper somewhere is nothing which would be easy to spot. If he is somewhere in the bushes, you wont see anything. If hes in a house he could watch you through a window without you could notice him because e.g. of reflections in the window, because it is dark inside or because of a courtain. If he's on a roof, you have a better chance spotting him, if you get into a higher position. If he's just in the middle of the roof using only his ears if someone tries to sneak through the town, making noises sooner or later, you wont see him from the ground level anyway.

However sneaky the snipe is, he does not have invisibility through 3rd person view without special technology. Your point is ridiculous. Like most.

[iashford 73]

it adds to server load immensly..

... Why? It would be clientside, not serverside. Me playing third person or having a dynamic camera isn't visible to you, nor does it effect your game, so why would it be loaded to the server?

[Ken Bean 175]

However sneaky the snipe is, he does not have invisibility through 3rd person view without special technology. Your point is ridiculous. Like most.

Invisibility and not being seen from a certain spot still is a difference. ;)

Edited August 27, 2013 by Ken Bean

[tommes 331]

I don't understand why people are over thinking this... Have an equal amount of TPV and FPS only servers. That way there is fairness in the playing field, and it'll be easily monitored on who likes what more.

Then you would have to leave the choice to enable 3rd person view or not to the devs and not the server admin because otherwise they will pussy out to all those role players. The sort of gravity the lamers have was pointed out several times in this thread.

I've suggested it many of times, I'm not sure why it's not getting considered... Max Payne 3 has a dynamic camera that zooms and moves away from a corner that you're trying to look around. Or if you're covering behind a small wall, the camera moves down so you can't look over it unless your peeking over. How is that hard to fix third person when games like Max Payne have provided the solution :S

Why don't you provide is with some sample code of something like that? You can't. Maybe you should shut up and leave that sort of thing to the people with actual knowledge and skill.

Haven't played Max Payne 3 but it sure has no 255 km2 and more maps. It's easy to hone some very limited map to get the cinematic experience desired, but for something like Arma, which runs as shit anyway, it's a tremendous task. Shutting off 3rd person view is just like hitting a switch. Absolutely no effort while reaping oceans of tears off disgruntled 3rd person whores.

[tommes 331]

Invisibility and not being seen from a certain spot still is a difference. ;)

And your point is? With 3rd person view the observer has true invisibility from almost any spot his potential targets can use. A real life sniper is never really invisible. He is camouflaged.

Btw, there was an endless discussion about lame snipers, just sitting around and blasting fresh spawns running into their crosshairs...and now you are using those FOR your case? How lame can this even get?

The longer this thread goes the more I despise 3rd person whiners. And my starting point was already low...

[iashford 73]

Then you would have to leave the choice to enable 3rd person view or not to the devs and not the server admin because otherwise they will pussy out to all those role players. The sort of gravity the lamers have was pointed out several times in this thread.Why don't you provide is with some sample code of something like that? You can't. Maybe you should shut up and leave that sort of thing to the people with actual knowledge and skill.Haven't played Max Payne 3 but it sure has no 255 km2 and more maps. It's easy to hone some very limited map to get the cinematic experience desired, but for something like Arma, which runs as shit anyway, it's a tremendous task. Shutting off 3rd person view is just like hitting a switch. Absolutely no effort while reaping oceans of tears off disgruntled 3rd person whores.

Why would I need to provide you with code...? I'm not a coder. But seeing as other games prove it's possible... Well, proof is in the pudding ;) and it's effective.

Cameras are clientside, so it's more than possible, it doesn't matter how big the world is. If my camera effected your game somehow, then we got a problem. Regardless of how 'easy' it is to turn TPV off, it only accommodates YOUR needs, not everyone's. selfish. Tsk tsk. I could easily say it's easy to turn of first person :o

[DemonGroover 8836]

In regards to poll results.

 

The actual point of a poll is because there is no way of actually asking every single person their opinion and so a sample of the population is chosen.  More often than not this sample reflects the overall population and this is why the figures given can usually be trusted to be representative of everyone (give or take a few %)

 

The issue with the 1st vs 3rd poll on this forum as well as Reddit is that the sample chosen is NOT representative of the overall DayZ community.  There are far more players playing who never post on reddit or these forums.  So i for one agree that these polls are probably only reflecting the hard core players opinions and not the masses.

 

Rocket has clearly stated that 3rd person will stay in some form or another.  We just have to accept that fact and i think pointless posts about our opinions on what is better or realistic are now invalid.

 

So now that we know 3rd person is here to stay, what could make it better?

 

For me - restrict prone to 1st person.  This instantly gets rid of the camping rooftop sniper lying on a roof.  If he wants to camp he will now have to do it crouching.