Winchester 1866

[Dr. Goner 661]

OK, so why is the 1866 portrayed as a shotgun in DayZ? I know they can fire 410 shotgun shells but its not commonly done. I own a 30cal version called a Marlin 30/30 and it is by far one of the best guns on earth for both home defense and hunting.

This is one of the greatest weapons ever made and I'm posting this to suggest it should be a very difficult find in standalone.

That's right folks, I think that M4A1s and such should be as rare as AS50's when the standalone rolls around. Maybe even more so. Let's try to keep this to discussing why the Winchester 1866 should be one of the best guns in this game. Also, let's use this thread as a place to celebrate this beloved weapon and ask for it to be properly portrayed in the standalone. 44 cal rimfire rounds people. None of this shotgun crap. I mean you seriously think a Lee can compete with one of these. Wikipedia explains this beautifully, note the last sentence.

Winchester Model 1866 [edit]

The original Winchester rifle – the Winchester Model 1866 – was famous for its rugged construction and lever-action mechanism that allowed the rifleman to fire a number of shots before having to reload: hence the term "repeating rifle." Nelson King's new improved patent remedied flaws in the Henry rifle by incorporating a loading gate on the side of the frame and integrating a round sealed magazine which was covered by a fore stock. Originally chambered in the rimfire .44 Henry, the Model 1866 was nicknamed the "Yellow Boy" because of its receiver of a bronze alloy called gunmetal.

These rifles were used in number by the Ottoman Empire in the Russo-Turkish War, where they made quite a name for themselves during the Siege of Plevna. The battle incidentally caused all the major powers to seriously consider adopting repeating rifles, considering the outnumbered Turks inflicted 4 times as many casualties as the Russians did with their single-shot Krnka and Berdan rifles.

Edited May 15, 2013 by DrGonzo

[boxman80 964]

Wow, nostalgia thread! lol This thread was all over the forums last summer!

Yea it's an aknowledged mistake that they have tried to correct by only allowing the winchester to use its own dedicated slug rounds instead of the standard shotgun buckshot and slug rounds it used to take last year. Probably easier than trying to redo the attributes of the gun from scratch.

Intersting idea thougha bout making the military grade weapons rare, one I share ideally and can see the sense in. I agree it would add a lot to the game by having more civilian styled guns sucha s various older shotguns, rifles etc.

Edited May 15, 2013 by Box

[elf cakes 559]

bloody hell you are in love with that gun lol

although i completely agree that m4's etc should be really rare and AS50's shouldnt be in the standalone at all. i think the best possible weapon should be the CZ550 or other low-grade snipers. it would be a much better game without ghillie snipers on a hill 1km away killing you when you have an AK-74. close range shootouts are always so much more intense.

[declan223@gmail.com 271]

I've got a .44-40 Cartridge and it's pretty small. IRL it's actually less powerful than a .357 Magnum. If you can imagine a rimmed .45 ACP with the case extended to about 35mm, you've got the .44-40

[Dr. Goner 661]

I've got a .44-40 Cartridge and it's pretty small. IRL it's actually less powerful than a .357 Magnum. If you can imagine a rimmed .45 ACP with the case extended to about 35mm, you've got the .44-40

I'm pretty sure this isn't accurate. I've owned both and the .357 is less powerful. 357 only tops the 44 due to lower cost of ammunition. I'm talking about rifles here not handguns. There are 357 handguns that are arguable more powerful but it depends on the cartridge load you choose.

EDIT: Also, there's no question that the 44s effective range is much longer than a 357. Also, the 44 creates a larger hole due to the slug size.

Edited May 15, 2013 by DrGonzo

[AngryMob 14]

I agree that the Winchester should fire 44, but i disagree about its rarity. It is considered a civilian class gun in my opinion, and therefore should be reflected as such in loot tables. Just because it is a fantastic example of a civilian weapon does not mean it should be equal in rarity to military loot or snipers, balance is for sissies.

i disagree about removing snipers somewhat. IMO the removal of anti-materiel rifles is acceptable, but only if there are no vehicles that are immune to small arms fire. and to address the ghillie sniper issue... ADD WIND. its been suggested a million times. it wont stop people from trying to snipe from miles away, but that should not be the goal anyway, it will just make things more difficult.

in general, i believe expanding on features and game mechanics is a much better solution that band-aiding them with removal or nerfing. you shouldn't penalize players that like to snipe by not giving them weapons that are comparable quality to assault weapons, and you shouldn't make a gun super rare just because it is OP if it is a durable and common gun. everything that the devs do should make sense

edit: grammar nazi...

Edited May 15, 2013 by AngryMob

[Chaingunfighter 917]

bloody hell you are in love with that gun lol

although i completely agree that m4's etc should be really rare and AS50's shouldnt be in the standalone at all. i think the best possible weapon should be the CZ550 or other low-grade snipers. it would be a much better game without ghillie snipers on a hill 1km away killing you when you have an AK-74. close range shootouts are always so much more intense.

I disagree, it's actually much more intense knowing that you are in constant danger and somewhere 'safe' may not be safe at all.

While the AS50 it self should be gone, I'm still for weapons like the DMR, M107, M24 etc (Albeit super-rare) and weapons like the SVD and CZ-550 to be more common snipers than the rest.

[-Gews- 7443]

A classic example, the Winchester is a shotgun in game. Which, of course, is complete bollocks. I haven't had the time to change and 99% of people don't give a shit. Those that notice don't seem to mind its lack of "authenticity" because it doesn't effect their suspension of disbelief. "

"I love the winchester, but the content of it is placeholder. I.e. the ammo, the sounds, etc...

Anyways it should be portrayed properly, the only problem then becomes the damage...

The 44 Henry's 216 gr at 1,125 ft/s would do about 1,800 blood damage, the 44-40's 200 gr at 1325 ft/s would do about 2,300 blood damage.

Needless to say I think damage should be redone for every single weapon in the mod but I doubt that will ever happen.

[Dr. Goner 661]

I disagree, it's actually much more intense knowing that you are in constant danger and somewhere 'safe' may not be safe at all.

While the AS50 it self should be gone, I'm still for weapons like the DMR, M107, M24 etc (Albeit super-rare) and weapons like the SVD and CZ-550 to be more common snipers than the rest.

AS50 and the M107 are really similar in the mod. I can see Remington 700s being found in the country. Access to military gear would be dependent upon the military presence at the time of collapse. An area like Chernarus, relatively unknown and not that populated wouldn't have a serious military presence during the zombie apocalypse. Plus whatever military presence was there probably wouldn't have sniper rifles to deal with a zombie threat. I can see M4s and military grade shotguns, but not anti material rifles, I mean, it's not like zombies are flying helicopters and driving hummers. The military would only bring what gear they needed, no more, no less.

I like playing with the military gear too, but that's why I play ARMA. The toys are fun, but dayz is about the zombie apocalypse set in a remote area with a few industrial port towns. I say keep it real and make high end weapons rare as hell and make this thing about survival not collecting and killing others.

I want that 1866 to be accurate. In the US, you can find one of those things in a lot of houses.

Edited May 15, 2013 by DrGonzo

[dekartz 315]

You seem to forget there are two-three military bases smack dab in Chernarus. So the "rarity" of military weapons as it stands now is even MORE unlikely. You should be finding AK's, SVD's, and RPK's out the ass. Maybe the NATO-based weapons would be rarer, but who gives a damn about an M4 when you've got an AK-101 anyway? Not to mention of Chernarus is it's own island-nation (as I believe it's supposed to be) it would have a full-sizable military arsenal and would be employing said arsenal in the defense of their country against the zombie threat.

[elf cakes 559]

I disagree, it's actually much more intense knowing that you are in constant danger and somewhere 'safe' may not be safe at all.

While the AS50 it self should be gone, I'm still for weapons like the DMR, M107, M24 etc (Albeit super-rare) and weapons like the SVD and CZ-550 to be more common snipers than the rest.

if that's your view, then why not keep the AS50? oh and yes it may be intense to think that there could be anyone anywhere, but then what if you actually get killed by some asshole on a hill 1km away? you dont even hear the shot before you're dead. yes it would be cool the first time it happened, but it would become much more common, and would happen all the time. thats no fun at all.

[-Gews- 7443]

if that's your view, then why not keep the AS50?

Because an AS50 shot does more damage than a 23x152mm armor-piercing high-explosive round fired from a ZSU-23-4.

[CoolCain10 55]

I'm english, I don't get guns.

[Dr. Goner 661]

You seem to forget there are two-three military bases smack dab in Chernarus. So the "rarity" of military weapons as it stands now is even MORE unlikely. You should be finding AK's, SVD's, and RPK's out the ass. Maybe the NATO-based weapons would be rarer, but who gives a damn about an M4 when you've got an AK-101 anyway? Not to mention of Chernarus is it's own island-nation (as I believe it's supposed to be) it would have a full-sizable military arsenal and would be employing said arsenal in the defense of their country against the zombie threat.

Yeah, but the current unrealistic military presence in the mod could be corrected in the SA. I mean what land area the size of Chernarus would have that many military bases. I'm not talking about the impromtu setups such as Berenzino but Stary, NE, NW, and Balota. It's completely unrealistic. I love the idea of making it more realistic. If you only had 1866 you wouldn't even miss the other guns after a while after a while. I'm not saying it should be the only gun, but in reality it would be an amazing find in the zombie apocalypse!! Plus the environment and Zeds should be so brutal that you don't have time to play COD.

Also, Chernarus isn't an island as far as I'm aware. I thought it was based on a remote area in the Czech republic.

Edited May 15, 2013 by DrGonzo

[Dr. Goner 661]

Because an AS50 shot does more damage than a 23x152mm armor-piercing high-explosive round fired from a ZSU-23-4.

Well then, why does he want to keep the M107 and ditch the AS50?

[-Gews- 7443]

Well then, why does he want to keep the M107 and ditch the AS50?

M107 does about 5 times less damage. The AS50 should do 10% more damage at most, not over 360% more damage... doesn't make sense.

Edited May 15, 2013 by Gews

[FlashHawk4 44]

Well then, why does he want to keep the M107 and ditch the AS50?

Because due to (what I consider) a bug in the ARMA codes, the AS50 does...IIRC, approximately six as much damage as the M107, even though they fire the exact same round. And the devs seem to be slow to mend this grievous error.

Anyway, I definitely agree that bullet mechanics should be overhauled totally for DayZ SA. While the bullet drop mechanic alone distinguishes the ArmA engine from most of the point-and-shoots out there, but the sniping is so prevalent BECAUSE it isn't realistically depicted here. The difficulty in shooting a target four hundred yards away and the difficulty in shooting a target eight hundred yards away in this game are a linear slope at best, when in the real world it would easily be an exponential one. There's a reason that snipers are such prized assets IRL, and that's because it's an ass-load of investment in time and training to become one. I feel like DayZ should focus on the idea of making individuals far more valuable to a team by their actual skills, instead of making us all jacks of all trades. No, I am most assuredly NOT bringing up player classes or things like that. I just think that it should be HARD to fly choppers, it should be HARD to pull 1000 meter shots, and it should be HARD to replace the engine bloc of a deuce and a half with just a handyman's toolkit. Not obnoxious minigames, not irritating and counterintuitive game mechanics...just...challenging. LIke realistically modeled wind and realistically implemented scope adjustments, or at least slightly in-depth procedures to start up a helicopter's engine instead of just double tapping Q.

[elf cakes 559]

Because due to (what I consider) a bug in the ARMA codes, the AS50 does...IIRC, approximately six as much damage as the M107, even though they fire the exact same round. And the devs seem to be slow to mend this grievous error.

who cares? it's a one hit kill anyway.

[elf cakes 559]

Because an AS50 shot does more damage than a 23x152mm armor-piercing high-explosive round fired from a ZSU-23-4.

whoop de doo. it makes no difference. it's still a one hit kill. anyway that's entirely irrelevant, my point was that why would he get rid of the AS50 (an overpowered sniper) and keep the DMR, (an overpowered sniper) the M107 (an overpowered sniper) and the M24, (another overpowered sniper! wow!). it makes no sense to get rid of one when the others are just as overpowered. get rid of 'em all.

[-Gews- 7443]

who cares? it's a one hit kill anyway.

It matters because it means it blows up vehicles with a couple shots, which is downright silly. It's also an issue of principle and "constant quality improvement". It's incorrect and should be fixed. Lastly, changing it to a correct value is literally a matter of typing "26" instead of "56".

It's a moot point for the DayZ mod now - they are removing both .50 cals in the upcoming 1.7.7 patch. Bohemia Interactive is focused on ArmA III and DayZ SA and won't do jack shit about it, sigh.

it should be HARD to pull 1000 meter shots.

I like ACE sniping, 'tis fun.

I hope they are inspired to incorporate similar features sometime down the road...

my point was that why would he get rid of the AS50 (an overpowered sniper) and keep the DMR, (an overpowered sniper) the M107 (an overpowered sniper) and the M24, (another overpowered sniper! wow!). it makes no sense to get rid of one when the others are just as overpowered. get rid of 'em all.

Can't speak for him, the issue for me isn't that it's overpowered, it's that the damage is wrong. Also I don't consider the M24 "overpowered", it sucks at close range and takes multiple shots to kill at long range if it's not a headshot. I will admit the DMR is questionable... but OPness doesn't bother me too much.

[elf cakes 559]

It's a moot point for the DayZ mod now - they are removing both .50 cals in the upcoming 1.7.7 patch. Bohemia Interactive is focused on ArmA III and DayZ SA and won't do jack shit about it, sigh.

yeah i just read about them removing them both, excellent news! :D

[dekartz 315]

Yeah, but the current unrealistic military presence in the mod could be corrected in the SA. I mean what land area the size of Chernarus would have that many military bases. I'm not talking about the impromtu setups such as Berenzino but Stary, NE, NW, and Balota. It's completely unrealistic. I love the idea of making it more realistic. If you only had 1866 you wouldn't even miss the other guns after a while after a while. I'm not saying it should be the only gun, but in reality it would be an amazing find in the zombie apocalypse!! Plus the environment and Zeds should be so brutal that you don't have time to play COD.

Also, Chernarus isn't an island as far as I'm aware. I thought it was based on a remote area in the Czech republic.

Wait, so a small country having the military capabilities to defend itself are unrealistic? Ok. Sorry -insert almost any small eastern european nation here- Doctor Gonzo here says that your military is unrealistic. Also, killing other people in a zombie apocalypse (or really at ranges over 300m) isn't COD. So lets not get dismissive of other people's gameplay styles. Also, please don't tell me what I would or wouldn't miss, it's presumptuous.

The 1886 being prevalent in an eastern european nation in any sense isn't realistic at all. It would likely be something that the occasional (and likely ballin') collector would have, otherwise you'd see far more Kar98k's or Mosin nagants. And definitely more AK-47's (one of the most prevalent guns in the world) than a niche lever-action rifle.

[SixGunLover 54]

You may or may not be right DrGonzo, but for home defense, my trust is in tomahawks.

[Draco122 411]

Wait, so a small country having the military capabilities to defend itself are unrealistic? Ok. Sorry -insert almost any small eastern european nation here- Doctor Gonzo here says that your military is unrealistic. Also, killing other people in a zombie apocalypse (or really at ranges over 300m) isn't COD. So lets not get dismissive of other people's gameplay styles. Also, please don't tell me what I would or wouldn't miss, it's presumptuous.

The 1886 being prevalent in an eastern european nation in any sense isn't realistic at all. It would likely be something that the occasional (and likely ballin') collector would have, otherwise you'd see far more Kar98k's or Mosin nagants. And definitely more AK-47's (one of the most prevalent guns in the world) than a niche lever-action rifle.

I could see a Winchester in Eastern Europe, they did import a number of 1895 versions chambered in 7,62x54mmR, the same round used by the SVD. Plus it's a game, so anything could be made up.

In addition, perhaps the 1866 should be replaced by a somewhat more common lever action? Something like the 1894 or 1892 chambered in a more modern cartridge. My understanding is that they do make modern copies chambered in .357 Magnum and .38 Special respecitively, the same also goes for .44 Magnum and .44 Special

[-Gews- 7443]

In addition, perhaps the 1866 should be replaced by a somewhat more common lever action? Something like the 1894 or 1892 chambered in a more modern cartridge. My understanding is that they do make modern copies chambered in .357 Magnum and .38 Special respecitively, the same also goes for .44 Magnum and .44 Special

Don't forget .45 Colt. Realistically I don't think you'd see any of these whatsoever at all, but in the case of the Winchester I'm willing to make an exception... jus 'cos.