My own thoughts and reservations regarding the impending morality system

[Goose Springsteen 9]

Okay people - As we're in Alpha we're always listening to idea from the people about what we do' date=' how we can improve etc.

The problem is I'm going through this thread and seeing no other possible method suggested of how to deal with this issue. We're not going to turn PvP off because DayZ would just die. In ANY public server on ANY public mission you're going to find those who want to kill players for the sake of killing players.

Personally from my point of my view I rarely get killed by other survivors and get along just great with everyone I meet because well...everyone here wants to do co-op. One must also remember you need to set your own goals currently such as 'Most zombie kills' etc because we are still working on the mod.

But this brings the issue up about: What can we actually do for PvP that isn't turning off PvP or banning everyone who kills a lot. We've tried to add the bandit model in order to show your choices: Like in fable if you're evil you look evil and everyone is scared of you, but of course you can still get along with some people.

There is very little we can do to control 12 servers, 300+ people and some random killing from time to time. If you think you know how we can solve it please be my guest and tell me.

[/quote']

Personally speaking if the consequences of death were worse then one would be far less likely to take extravagant risks. I might be talking out of my backside here but how about a server that "bans" you for 12/24 hours after you have been killed.

Just an idea! :D

But on the point of the bandit skin - I think it is causing more harm than good because as I said in my last post I now feel obliged to kill anyone who I cannot be sure of because of the high likelihood that I will be killed by them due to my appearance.

Thanks for your/the rest of the teams hard work though it really is a fantastic game!

Goose

[anzik 0]

...

The problem is I'm going through this thread and seeing no other possible method suggested of how to deal with this issue.

...

I don't know if my comments are invisible or what. Not even one reaction to them. And I truly believe, specializing survivors, as in real life most of us are highly specialized and not going to last very long on its own, will ease excessive murdering. It will not stop PvP, but its not the point.

[Adam (DayZ) 193]

...

The problem is I'm going through this thread and seeing no other possible method suggested of how to deal with this issue.

...

I don't know if my comments are invisible or what. Not even one reaction to them. And I truly believe' date=' specializing survivors, as in real life most of us are highly specialized and not going to last very long on its own, will ease excessive murdering. It will not stop PvP, but its not the point.

[/quote']

Already been planned for some time.

[griffinz 2816]

Reduce bullet damage to players.

Usually you take 1 shot, most of your blood is gone, and youre bleeding out hard, so you can either run somewhere safe and die, or stop and bandage and get shot again.

[TheRiddick 0]

Hmm I have a small idea on how to make it a little less painful for honest good working survivors when they die, how about if a good morality player gets killed by a bandit then that good player spawns with a little bit extra, like lets say a Glock17 and 5 clips? Just as a 'damn it sucks but here you go'. Then people will be like FFS, but least I have a good start!

You could make it so this only happens max couple times per game session, put limits, incase someone attempts to exploit it such as good and bad player joining up to get free ammo or something. Still the glock17 isn't that good, just it has a flashlight which would help survival at night.

Don't know how that sounds, but most the guys I play with, when they die its rage-quit because its like, damnit start with crap all again after 5hours of HARD work...

[Adam (DayZ) 193]

damnit start with crap all again after 5hours of HARD work...

Kind of like real life, which is the whole point.

[griffinz 2816]

Yea, I dont mind losing everything when I die...it makes surviving ages all that more special. Hurlock Holmes is a legend! (and possibly a hermit in the mountains by now)

[cyrus231 2]

I liked it without the morality system.... now people still kill you but you don't want to shoot back and defend yourself because you lose morality. Sucks!

[lolrade 1]

Just slightly reduce the supplies you can scavenge, spread out player spawns, add more zombies, and make them slightly more aware. If you up the difficulty a bit, it'll almost force players to work together or die. If anything, it will be better than the current broken morality system in place.

[rocket 16567]

I liked it without the morality system.... now people still kill you but you don't want to shoot back and defend yourself because you lose morality. Sucks!

If you get shot, the person that shot you can be killed without a normal morality hit for the next five minutes.

[lolrade 1]

But often times you're already dead or so wounded that it doesn't really matter by that point.

[Mojo (DayZ) 66]

Okay people - As we're in Alpha we're always listening to idea from the people about what we do' date=' how we can improve etc.

The problem is I'm going through this thread and seeing no other possible method suggested of how to deal with this issue. We're not going to turn PvP off because DayZ would just die. In ANY public server on ANY public mission you're going to find those who want to kill players for the sake of killing players.

Personally from my point of my view I rarely get killed by other survivors and get along just great with everyone I meet because well...everyone here wants to do co-op. One must also remember you need to set your own goals currently such as 'Most zombie kills' etc because we are still working on the mod.

But this brings the issue up about: What can we actually do for PvP that isn't turning off PvP or banning everyone who kills a lot. We've tried to add the bandit model in order to show your choices: Like in fable if you're evil you look evil and everyone is scared of you, but of course you can still get along with some people.

There is very little we can do to control 12 servers, 300+ people and some random killing from time to time. If you think you know how we can solve it please be my guest and tell me.

[/quote']

Is it possible to code an aggressor check?

For example, the script:

1. Checks to see if player "John" has aimed at or near another player "Bill" by verifying his orientation (and possibly by verifying whether his rifle-slot weapon is being held at low rest or high ready -- ie: double-tap CTRL)

2. Imminent threat verification: Checks to see if "John" fired a round and missed during the time he was drawing a bead or a near-bead on "Bill".

3. Permits "Bill" to return fire on "John" and kill him with zero morality impact for acting in self-defence (responding to the imminent threat).

Different morality penalties could be put in place for doing things like:

1. Firing on a player oriented away from you (ie: shooting them in the back)

1a. Not triggered if the player has engaged you previously

2. Less (but not no) penalty for finding a player looting a tent stash that is flagged as having belonged to you.

Things like this, common-sense error checking for player behaviour, is the difference between a PvP morality system that works, and one that's far too open to griefing.

[cuel 2]

Let's put down some facts:

The goal of this entire gamemode/mod is survival. There's an apocalypse and there's zombies. There's other survivors out there in the mix.

Currently there's no downside to killing another player except that your model in-game will change. Some people are actually PK'ing to have that model since they think it's look cooler/better than PMC ones. Is this a good way of solving the problem?

This isn't World of Warcraft where you keep all the gear when you die. When you die - you're dead. You'll get a new character and you're back on square one. Their PvP system works very different since dying have no real punishment. You can only be awarded when you manage to survive and kill other players, there's no punishment.

Friendly players that only try and survive are currently being 'punished' when they actively take the choice to not kill another survivor. He can still shoot them in the back for no reason. And yes some people argue that this is 'good' because it's realistic/it's about survival/some other reason. But the fact is still there. The most logic choice is to kill another player because he might be a threat.

Players that actively seek out other players with the only purpose to kill them are not being punished except that their model will change. This will 'reveal' that the player is a hostile player to other survivors. Is this a punishment? Sort of. What is the 'easy way'? Can anyone agree that letting another survivor live is easier than killing him, if you take out the zombie perspective? Why should you be 'punished' for trusting another player, potentially loosing all of your sweet gear and stuff? And why should PK'ers/non-PK'ers be punished or awarded? The dev team wrote earlier that they don't want to interfere with player choices but I disagree. This is a mod in a military simulator so some people are looking for the most 'realistic' gameplay. But you're playing it for enjoyment. And so are other people, some of them don't like being killed by other players in a mod based around survival co-op [arguable, but it's still the main point of the entire mod].

If anyone wonders, I'm currently a bandit in-game.

Your choices should affect your character in one way or another. Personally I think the first idea of having talent points sounds great. Which brings us back to what Sam wrote

Okay people - As we're in Alpha we're always listening to idea from the people about what we do' date=' how we can improve etc.

The problem is I'm going through this thread and seeing no other possible method suggested of how to deal with this issue.

[...']

But this brings the issue up about: What can we actually do for PvP that isn't turning off PvP or banning everyone who kills a lot. We've tried to add the bandit model in order to show your choices: Like in fable if you're evil you look evil and everyone is scared of you, but of course you can still get along with some people.

There is very little we can do to control 12 servers, 300+ people and some random killing from time to time. If you think you know how we can solve it please be my guest and tell me.

Which also brings me back to anzik's earlier post in this thread about specialization. I can relate to that up until the randomization. Specialization, as it was planned earlier sounded great.

The real issue here is how to implement it without breaking balance and pissing people off just because they chose to kill other players. This is the real issue that should be discussed, not whether or not there should be a PvP system at all.

[Sam Maunder 40]

Allow me to release a little bit of information on the 'Talent Points' as it stands. Currently even if you're a bandit you -could- still gain talent point by doing good acts such as non-bandit could. Remember only the model has changed. The idea is that hopefully people would want the advantages of 'Specializing' their player and therefore PvP less as if to not lose points and so end up with a bad character.

This could end up though where once players have characters which sre specialized then they'll end up going on a DM spree...

It's all about balancing really and it's something we are always working on.

[oktyabr 53]

Consider this as an alternative (be gentle, I put a lot of time and thought into it):

http://dayzmod.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=187

[puppetmasterjjk 3]

I'm glad to see more people have come into the thread and agree that the bandit model system is counterproductive.

Also, many suggestions have been made in here, including a few of my own on how people can be enticed to work together a little more than they currently do. Also, suggestions have been made for how to change characters so everyone is less "samey", but so that everyone is still on an even playing field. The only "imbalance" currently, is that people don't feel that zombies are enough of a threat now that they all know how to deal with the ARMA AI and predictable spawning. Real imbalance, however, comes from putting players on uneven ground with one-another.

Adding a class system, talent points, or even changing player models based on what kind of survivor they are will cause real imbalance. As has been mentioned over and over, it creates a specialized breed of PvP players, rather than shifting the focus onto survival. The reason people love the mod is because it's the only real zombie survival simulator out there. If it has to be done, tweak the zombies to make sure the emphasis is still on the zombies, but don't add weird "arcadey" systems that take away from the simulation. Players are meant to survive, and the reason that so many players are getting caught being careless and in the open by hostile players is because they all know where the zombies are, and thus they don't care enough about their own survival while traveling or when dealing with other players.

Right now, the large amount of hostile players is the only thing that keeps the people who cannot survive and run around in the open in check. Until zombies get spread out across the map, people who don't understand the dangers of other players are going to continue being careless when they know zombies aren't near.

Survival of the fittest, etc.

[mrnicklebe 3]

I don't understand why some players want to play a realistic semi-hardcore zombie sim like this game is if you don't want it to be hard and unforgiving.

I've had 3 characters so far, the first one died of blood loss whilst trying to swim away from a pack of zombies across a river. The second character was shot dead whilst collecting water and hunting animals peacefully by a lake. I wasn't angry about this, I was just like "Fuck! this world is unforgiving and well... AMAZING!".

My third character was really effected by the fate of the one before it. I decided this life I'm going to be the predator and see what that's like. It's fun still, but in a different way than to just surviving. I stalked 3 different players last night down a coastal road in total darkness with the intent of forcefully taking their stuff. I found it to be oddly and morbidly satisfying when I succeeded (weird I know). It got my heart racing more than any other game has in the past. The thrill of the chase I suppose, it really felt like a life or death fight for something that meant something to all parties involved.

Who knows what my fourth character will be, probably a mix of the above. But my point is; having an unforgiving world where players can do whatever they want is great because most zombie games (and most games in general) don't let you do that. Every player cares about their life and wants to preserve it at all costs, can you think of a game where you truly want to stay alive as much as you do in Dayz? Because I can't.

I'd really appreciate it if the devs kept that sense of urgency and sandbox live-in-fear survival. The way it would almost certainly would be if a zombie apocalypse did happen. Trivialising the world by removing player killing, imposing infractions on player-killers or whatever other suggestions are made on this thread will make this game predictable, linear and most of all BORING :(.

[bodycount 83]

I don't understand why some players want to play a realistic semi-hardcore zombie sim like this game is if you don't want it to be hard and unforgiving.

I've had 3 characters so far' date=' the first one died of blood loss whilst trying to swim away from a pack of zombies across a river. The second character was shot dead whilst collecting water and hunting animals peacefully by a lake. I wasn't angry about this, I was just like "Fuck! this world is unforgiving and well... AMAZING!".

My third character was really effected by the fate of the one before it. I decided this life I'm going to be the predator and see what that's like. It's fun still, but in a different way than to just surviving. I stalked 3 different players last night down a coastal road in total darkness with the intent of forcefully taking their stuff. I found it to be oddly and morbidly satisfying when I succeeded (weird I know). It got my heart racing more than any other game has in the past. The thrill of the chase I suppose, it really felt like a life or death fight for something that meant something to all parties involved.

Who knows what my fourth character will be, probably a mix of the above. But my point is; having an unforgiving world where players can do whatever they want is great because most zombie games (and most games in general) don't let you do that. Every player cares about their life and wants to preserve it at all costs, can you think of a game where you truly want to stay alive as much as you do in Dayz? Because I can't.

I'd really appreciate it if the devs kept that sense of urgency and sandbox live-in-fear survival. The way it would almost certainly would be if a zombie apocalypse did happen. Trivialising the world by removing player killing, imposing infractions on player-killers or whatever other suggestions are made on this thread will make this game predictable, linear and most of all BORING :(.

[/quote']

You just described the evolution of gameplay in a nutshell.

Start off fighting against zombies in a zombie game, get ganked by a player, then finally become a griefing ganker and fight other players and disregard zombies.

[oktyabr 53]

You just described the evolution of gameplay in a nutshell.

Start off fighting against zombies in a zombie game' date=' get ganked by a player, then finally become a griefing ganker and fight other players and disregard zombies.

[/quote']

I like the way you think, TurkeyBurgers! I wish it didn't take me 1000+ words to say something like that. :blush:

[bodycount 83]

Everybody wants to come to the party but no one wants to stay and help clean up afterwards.

You do realize that you are play testing an ALPHA and helping root out bugs and fix them right? Offering suggestions, finding bugs and trying to find ways to improve them?

I think if more people realized that instead of trying to play the game like a polished finished release things would go FAR smoother.

[puppetmasterjjk 3]

Everybody wants to come to the party but no one wants to stay and help clean up afterwards.

You do realize that you are play testing an ALPHA and helping root out bugs and fix them right? Offering suggestions' date=' finding bugs and trying to find ways to improve them?

I think if more people realized that instead of trying to play the game like a polished finished release things would go FAR smoother.

[/quote']

I think you have this thread all wrong. Almost every post in here provides constructive criticism and/or ideas to fix problems. Also, what better way to playtest a game than to play it as if it's at full release, identify problems and then come back here to provide feedback?

[jordnz 102]

I'm unsure whether this has been asked or not (and haven't been able to test it as the server I usually join is constantly full as of late); Does your morality reset when you die/respawn? If it does, it really seems like quite a high starting morality (+2500), as bandits will need to kill a lot of players before their morality drops enough to actually become said bandit.

What's the story on this?

[oktyabr 53]

I think you have this thread all wrong. Almost every post in here provides constructive criticism and/or ideas to fix problems. Also' date=' what better way to playtest a game than to play it as if it's at full release, identify problems and then come back here to provide feedback?

[/quote']

Dang it Baby Stomper, how the hell am I supposed to argue with you when you keep writing smart stuff like that? Now I just have to break into my respect and reputation jar and give you some... and I'm running low! ;)

Ok, for those of us that are seriously interested helping this mod reach beta by squashing bugs and providing feedback... Raise your hand if you can think of at least two other places than these forums to do it?

/me shoots his hand into the air and grins

[puppetmasterjjk 3]

Haha, yeah. I think I'll make a suggestion/fix thread of my own pretty soon.

[mrnicklebe 3]

You just described the evolution of gameplay in a nutshell.

Start off fighting against zombies in a zombie game' date=' get ganked by a player, then finally become a griefing ganker and fight other players and disregard zombies.

[/quote']

I suppose so. However I don't think I personally have finished my evolution :P. I don't intend on becoming a griefing ganker at all.

In a game like this I think you just cant expect not to get grief from other players, after all you're competing against them for precious supplies and equipment.

Most people I've talked to or come across are highly suspicious of everyone else which creates a sort of cold war atmosphere (which I love). It's inevitable that crazy things happen, people get shot and the dead get angry. If you don't like it you rage quit and don't come back. This mod is growing pretty fast so I don't think this is a problem.

As for ganking, well I haven't come across any groups of murderous looters yet and generally avoid groups of other players unless I've been chatting to them for a while.

As I said originally the next stage of my gameplay development will most likely be a hybrid of my other characters. I think I was naive to originally think I could just live peacefully in the forest hunting and stuff without getting into trouble.

I'm going to get my hands bloody at some points and not necessarily in self defence either :P.