We need a completely different loot system

[_Anubis_ (DayZ) 139]

I have played dayz for a few months and after the learning/fresh spawn phase I moved to avoid Z by running/killing with the hatchet, learn the geography of Chernarus till the point I travel with a compass and landmarks, sometimes I do not even pick up the map (its main use now is sniper aid as it can act as rangefinder and I do not snipe).

On purpose I play dayz by starting new Avatars on vanilla private servers, because I find the early phase the most interesting and challenging - after it gets boring unless on purpose I visit dangerous spots.

My point is (especially after 1.7.6 and the disappearing of military weapons in Deer Stands) that now it does not matter anymore how big (or small) Chernarus is, since it is safer, quicker and far more efficient to visit ONLY 3 places to get geared:

- Painkillers/Morphine/Antibiotics/Bandages: 1 stop in either Cherno, Elektro, Berezino

- Big backpack/Tools/Food: 1 stop in a town with a supermarket (Cherno, Elektro, Zeleno, ...)

- Mil. Weapons (long/sidearm): 1 stop in Cherno, Elektro, Balota, Berezino, NWAF, NEAF

That's it. With luck (and taking some risks) I need to visit exactly ONE place and get everything I need, of course by returning to the same building 2-3 times especially to get a decent weapon.

The rest of the map is useless, wasted. Space between a destination and another. I do not need to stop anywhere (only exceptions: hunting, making a fire, refilling the canteens).

Why? Because every player needs to survive only three categories of objects and those three categories are concentrated in an handful of points. Elektro, Berezino and Cherno have ALL three categories together. A paradise.

This is a direct consequence of the loot system: each one of us knows, after a while, where to find what and moves very efficiently.

However, this makes the game repetitive and predictive, so it kills it.

What we need is to have a far higher degree of randomness for loot, especially valuable one, which I do hope the SA will bring.

Edit: I did not put any suggestions, which is wrong:

1. all military weapons and ammo: crash site only (and crash sites 100% random, no predefined crash point) and occasionally (low %) inside buildings and car/truck wrecks

2. keep hospitals and supermarkets but with a rather low percentage, not as now (those places, in an apocalypse, should be the first ones to be looted)

3. keep houses/barns etc as they are

4. add rare/valuable loot randomly (everywhere literally) all over Chernarus

The idea is to put far more effort in scavenging and looking around, instead of making a one-stop shopping session in Berezino and go away, fully geared after 1-2 hours.

_Anubis_

Edited March 23, 2013 by _Anubis_

[Zionist Wabbit 154]

This is the current idea being implemented within DayZ: SA. The entire basis of a server-side Loot Table is gone. Weapons will spawn in logical places, such as Hunting Rifles in Hunting Sheds or Rural Houses, Military Rifles within Military Outposts' or Military Vehicles. This will fix the problem you're having by spreading the 'wealth' of certain places around the Map rather then tiny pockets. Want food? You can't just walk into a Barn and expect perfect Cans of Pasta; You'll need to look for a delivery Truck, or a suburban House with stocked Cupboards.

[ponc 100]

signed.

RANDOMNESS is the key, in a game where everything depends on random events.

[p4triot 207]

signed.

RANDOMNESS is the key, in a game where everything depends on random events.

Randomness may also destroy the game. Be aware how those things are implemented, creating a game where random > skill will make this a big online casino instead of a survival game. Don't make this mistake, I've already seen that before and it is the main reason why people quits a game.

//EDIT: I am not talking especially on looting systems, some randomness in this part of the game may be welcomed. My statement extend especially to every other part of the game like for hipotetical example "we added a chance to fail when repairing a wheel on your car, and the wheel will be gone" <- this would plenty suck.

Edited March 23, 2013 by p4triot

[_Anubis_ (DayZ) 139]

//EDIT: I am not talking especially on looting systems, some randomness in this part of the game may be welcomed. My statement extend especially to every other part of the game like for hipotetical example "we added a chance to fail when repairing a wheel on your car, and the wheel will be gone" <- this would plenty suck.

100% agree. That kind of 'randomness' is simply a cheap trick to increase artificially the challenge by having un-avoidable "Oh shit" problems such as "once every X times a Z breaks your legs" - "once every X times a Z will infect you" - "once every X times a Z will knock you out" and so.

That is only annoying to say the least.

My concept of 'randomness' refers to the loot system: I simply do not want to have a system that I can defeat in one hour always with the same, foolproof pattern (hit a barn - get hatchet - hit a supermarket - get food and tools - hit an hospital - get medicine - hit a fire station - get a nice weapon. Endgame, now boredom).

For example we could have immaginary "convoys" moving from place A to place B or Chernarus (A and B random) leaving a trail of items, trash, half-repaired vehicles, bodies and so on.

The player would have to work hard to find signs of those convoys and once done, follows the signs hoping to find something good.

Another thing could be (I think already suggested) a large group of wandering zombies moving again from a random place to another.

Anything that adds different scenarios and additional "real" challenges to the player to survive.

Wild/hostile animals (another suggestion already seen).

_Anubis_

[bad_mojo (DayZ) 1204]

I don't think there's a problem with the loot distribution. It's just that people like you (and me) have learned the map. The whole gearing up part becomes just a chore. But, gearing up isn't the whole point of dayz. We shouldn't be looking for ways to make that part extremely difficult to keep veteran players interested. You've lived through the apocalypse, you've gained that knowledge, it SHOULD be easier for you. Think Rick Grimes & Glen in the first season of Walking Dead where Glen helps Rick get away from the tank and to safety. Rick was the new player, Glen is you.

DayZ is a social game, use your knowledge and experience to help people who need help. It can be a lot more fun than searching for NVGs and GPS.

(Not saying the loot system is perfect, I just don't think increasing that difficulty is going to do much for end-game players, they'll just get sick of the grind and stop playing.)

Edited March 23, 2013 by bad_mojo

[p4triot 207]

I don't think there's a problem with the loot distribution. It's just that people like you (and me) have learned the map. The whole gearing up part becomes just a chore. But, gearing up isn't the whole point of dayz. We shouldn't be looking for ways to make that part extremely difficult to keep veteran players interested. You've lived through the apocalypse, you've gained that knowledge, it SHOULD be easier for you. Think Rick Grimes & Glen in the first season of Walking Dead where Glen helps Rick get away from the tank and to safety. Rick was the new player, Glen is you.

DayZ is a social game, use your knowledge and experience to help people who need help. It can be a lot more fun than searching for NVGs and GPS.

(Not saying the loot system is perfect, I just don't think increasing that difficulty is going to do much for end-game players, they'll just get sick of the grind and stop playing.)

Not true, they will just find a new way to protocolize and eficience the gear-up part of the game. Seen that on thousands of MMORPGs. (Unless, ofc, you make the gear-up part completely impossible).

I find the OP is right, not for gameplay reasons but for the realism intended to be in this game.

2. keep hospitals and supermarkets but with a rather low percentage, not as now (those places, in an apocalypse, should be the first ones to be looted)

This sentence just got me. It makes no sense actually that medical supplies can be found in huge amounts in a hospital, because this place would be plundered in a matter of seconds if the civilization falls apart. Same with supermarkets, or the police station, and so on. If you wanted to find supplies or weapons you would have to loot mostly homes, finding small amount of pills, cans, water or even weapons/ammo each home. May be you may be luck and find a store who has not been plundered (at least not totally) but this would be mostly con small towns. Just the opposite of Day Z.

Just though, if this was added, not only would add to the immersion and realism of the game, but will also reduce the permanent Deatmatch cherno and electro are these days. And it wont make the game impossible, because as I said, good players will find a way to eficience the gearing up as usual. Instead of 2 hours would be 4, so what?

[bad_mojo (DayZ) 1204]

Not true, they will just find a new way to protocolize and eficience the gear-up part of the game. Seen that on thousands of MMORPGs. (Unless, ofc, you make the gear-up part completely impossible).

Yeah, I didn't mean everyone will quit. There will be some people who find fun in a lengthy gathering process. But, the sad reality is with the mod the way it is, you get killed a lot. Weather it's to hackers, or to bandits hunting you down. If I had to dedicate a good 5 hours just to maintain my survival every time I die, I doubt I would play as much dayz as I currently do.

In my eyes gear isn't the point of dayz. It's just something to fight over, the real point of dayz is social interactions.

[p4triot 207]

Yeah, I didn't mean everyone will quit. There will be some people who find fun in a lengthy gathering process. But, the sad reality is with the mod the way it is, you get killed a lot. Weather it's to hackers, or to bandits hunting you down. If I had to dedicate a good 5 hours just to maintain my survival every time I die, I doubt I would play as much dayz as I currently do.

In my eyes gear isn't the point of dayz. It's just something to fight over, the real point of dayz is social interactions.

True, social interactions are all, and this is why gear doesn't even matter. I know, you get killed a loot, and with a more difficult gear system it will be hard to maintain a certain level of gear all the time. But this is for you and for everyone!! I mean, as it is now, middle gear is easy to get, but try to maintain a full gear with NVG, RF, m107, m4sd, m9sd, gillie suit... This isn't a 2 hours job, especially since NVG/RF only spawn on heli crashes and those spawns now at random times/places. But you don't care about this because what makes difficulty for you to keep them it also makes it difficulty for everyone else. This is why it is called full gear.

So it is just semantic. What you consider to be middle gear will change if gear is easy/harder to get. Important is that the medium player will always be middle-geared pretty easy (doesnt matter if that means an M16ACG or just a single 1911). But theres a difference, adding those changes to the mod will make barns and small towns enter again into the equation of the game. I consider it a win/win.

[bad_mojo (DayZ) 1204]

The small towns already play a part. They break up the long walk from the coast to where ever you're going inland. Big cities should logically have more supplies than smaller towns. A military base would logically have military gear. We can debate about rarity and abundance, but I don't think removing military gear from the airfields, medical tents & fire stations is the right thing for the mod. Those places are an epicenter for action in the game. I don't think that getting everyone to spread out evenly across the map wouldn't make for a better game. You're already benefiting from looking for helicopter crashes because there won't be tons of people there.

I've even suggested that basic assault rifles should be stockpiled at some of the military spawns, like the hospitals do with medical supplies. Sure, a barracks wouldn't typically have crates of weapons, but maybe the soldiers dumped them all there as a last stand? Or maybe add some more military spawns at the airfield.

[bfisher 561]

There shouldn't be an "end state". Once you have all the gear, survival is pretty easy unless you killed by another player. You should have to constantly be dealing with survival issues. And stuff that makes sense like meat spoiling in your backpack or having to build a fire to avoid freezing. Not random stuff like dying from tripping on a rock.

[Dreygar (DayZ) 178]

This sentence just got me. It makes no sense actually that medical supplies can be found in huge amounts in a hospital, because this place would be plundered in a matter of seconds if the civilization falls apart. Same with supermarkets, or the police station, and so on. If you wanted to find supplies or weapons you would have to loot mostly homes, finding small amount of pills, cans, water or even weapons/ammo each home. May be you may be luck and find a store who has not been plundered (at least not totally) but this would be mostly con small towns. Just the opposite of Day Z.

Just though, if this was added, not only would add to the immersion and realism of the game, but will also reduce the permanent Deatmatch cherno and electro are these days. And it wont make the game impossible, because as I said, good players will find a way to eficience the gearing up as usual. Instead of 2 hours would be 4, so what?

I'm sorry, but personally I don't understand why people think resources would be depleted almost instantly. People have families to care for. They are going to gather up what they can in their home, stay there or try to go to other relatives so that they can all stay together. Only a few people would be raiding supermarkets, a lot of people will be scared to go to a place like that. Do you know how many Super Walmarts are in America? How long it would take even 1000 people to raid it? Now, throw in some zombies and see the massacre. Only the bravest and armed people would attempt to go in these places...

Then, the human factor ... if someone was able to secure a hospital or a supermarket and defended it.

Movies use scarcity for drama, but in reality I imagine it would take a long time. The rats would get into everything before a supermarket got emptied out. Without power the meats would spoil and without air conditioning it would be pretty unbearable to even enter one...

As a new player you experience the game at its fullest, but you play and play and play and everything becomes really easy. Only thing to keep the game fresh for veteran players will be new things they have to learn.

[aussiestig 681]

Rocket addressed this awhile ago in one of the video's. Loot will be randomized by the database. There won't be "residential" loot piles, or "farm" loot piles, or "hunting" loot piles, it will be all random.

I think there will some kind of restrictions to that though, just so you don't find an AS50 underneath a table, or a car tyre in a sink.

[_Anubis_ (DayZ) 139]

I keep thinking that getting fully geared (1) should either be a very long process or it could as well disappear: simply get more basic gear at spawn time and off you go.

What does it add to the overall game experience, assuming I will survive days and days, one hour spent to get geared? It is like the 2 minutes you spend paying the ticket before entering into a cinema to see a movie.

To me dayz should be a balance of harsh environment and social interaction: the harsh environment must force interactions, of any kind: team-up, barter, banditing...

As it is now, I can get geared so quickly and easily that I do not need to interact with anybody: neither to steal his gear, nor to defend myself (I can hide easily at any map borderline, with plenty of everything). Out of boredom, I can go to some hotspot and either watch what's going on or give blood bags/protect fresh spawns, that's all.

(1) fully-geared to me is: big backpack, plenty of canned food/meat, cans and canteens, medicines, tools, a military sidearm, an assault rifle, ammo, bino, compass

_Anubis_

Edited March 24, 2013 by _Anubis_