(SA) Third-Person: Project Zomboid style Line-of-sight mechanic. (UPDATED 5/18)

[colekern 1364]

Hey guys. I'm sure you've all seen the remove third person or balance third person posts that are on the forums these days. Recently, someone came up with an idea (can't remember who) that seemed pretty good.

Have any of you guys played project zomboid? The game is top down, but it has an interesting way of making sure you can't see all the enemies around you. Watch this video to see what I mean:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=j4iMO9BpGkQ

Basically, if your character can't see an NPC or player in firstperson without peeking around a corner, you won't be able to see it in thirdperson. They would be hidden. This means you will have to lean around corners as if you were still in first person. You would also have the advantage of a higher FOV while using Thirdperson.

You would be able to see the landscape and get a better view of your surroundings, but you would no longer be able to look around a corner or over a fence without exposing yourself.

This would allow people to still use third person, while also eliminating any exploits.

So tell me what you think! Do you not like or want to change something? Leave a comment!

UPDATED 5/18:

I've added a an example pic for clarification:

The parts highlighted in yellow are what would be rendered if you went in thirdperson. Notice that what would be rendered has no relation to firstperson FOV. If I tried to use the camera exploit to look around the corner, the character around the corner wouldn't be rendered because I wouldn't be able to see him in firstperson.

Edited May 18, 2013 by colekern

[Clumzy (DayZ) 377]

I think something like this has been mentioned before, and I hope that something like this is implemented in the standalone.

[q1p0 7]

The people who want third person would be opposed to this idea as I don't think many of them want third person to look at their character, rather look around obstacles.

I never play as third person (unless no first person mode available), so this will be good to curb exploits.

Edited February 27, 2013 by q1p0

[Clumzy (DayZ) 377]

The people who want third person would be opposed to this idea as I don't think many of them want third person to look at their character, rather look around obstacles.

Well why cater to them?

[entspeak 374]

Yes, it's possible to exploit third person to see over walls and around corners, but the reason BI has kept it in is that 1st person doesn't provide an accurate representation of what real life people see through their eyes. Unless you've got six screens going, you're not going to get the FOV of a real person in 1st person view. Even if you set your FOV to 90 degrees, it's about half the FOV that a real person has. So, in fact, 3rd person provides a more accurate visual representation of the surrounding environment. So, excluding other characters from 3rd person view if they can't be seen in 1st person view doesn't make much sense.

[colekern 1364]

Yes, it's possible to exploit third person to see over walls and around corners, but the reason BI has kept it in is that 1st person doesn't provide an accurate representation of what real life people see through their eyes. Unless you've got six screens going, you're not going to get the FOV of a real person in 1st person view. Even if you set your FOV to 90 degrees, it's about half the FOV that a real person has. So, in fact, 3rd person provides a more accurate visual representation of the surrounding environment. So, excluding other characters from 3rd person view if they can't be seen in 1st person view doesn't make much sense.

Okay, let me rephrase. If you could turn your head in First-person and see that person or object without having to tilt around a corner, it wouldn't be hidden in third-person, This was designed purely to keep people from peeking around things without exposing themselves.

[colekern 1364]

Yes, it's possible to exploit third person to see over walls and around corners, but the reason BI has kept it in is that 1st person doesn't provide an accurate representation of what real life people see through their eyes. Unless you've got six screens going, you're not going to get the FOV of a real person in 1st person view. Even if you set your FOV to 90 degrees, it's about half the FOV that a real person has. So, in fact, 3rd person provides a more accurate visual representation of the surrounding environment. So, excluding other characters from 3rd person view if they can't be seen in 1st person view doesn't make much sense.

Double post, the forum glitched.

Edited February 27, 2013 by colekern

[Raged 187]

Am I thinking correctly that Fog of War could somehow be implemented into third person?

I'm imagining a V with the bottom end starting at say, your waist, and spanning out to the top corners of the screen.

Essentially giving you the same view from FP, but in a focused and reduced space. Maybe darkened/foggyness on the outside of the V.

But that's just me trying to find a middle ground. I think Third-Person and First-Person should be a choice for the player/server, not majority desire.

[Positronica 30]

Well why cater to them?

Because right now, nearly 100% of the playerbase actively chooses to play on servers where third person is enabled, while only a miniscule number of players choose to play on first person only servers. It makes no sense to remove something from the game that a huge super-majority of players have demonstrated that they either enjoy having as an option, or are indifferent enough to to not make an effort to avoid.

Also, the fog of war thing or whatever you want to call it in the Op's video, might create a more accurate simulation, but for a lot of people such a system is more immersion breaking. Why? Because it doesn't parallel real life experience at all. In real life, if I can see an alley, or in a room, or down a street, I see that location as a whole. I don't see just the inanimate objects while certain things are magically invisible to me. Now, I'm sure you're response would be, "but your character can't see those things!" That's not the point, though. The goal of immersion is to blur the boundary between the player and his character. A system like what's shown in the Op's video does the opposite of that, by using visual feedback to directly reinforce the idea that a player is just controlling a character in a simulation, and not actually experiencing the game world directly. On top of that, it's a very gamey, and arcadey effect. One of the immersion goals of DayZ is to present the world with as little of HUD and non-natural information as possible. Something like in the Op's video breaks that goal big time by filling the screen with all sorts of unnatural visual representations. The best solution to the issue of third person view vs. first person view is still to just keep things the way they are, and to let players who hate third person play of servers that have it switched off.

[WiFiN 55]

The best solution to the issue of third person view vs. first person view is still to just keep things the way they are, and to let players who hate third person play of servers that have it switched off.

It's not the best. It splits the community. Also, most people use third person due to movement clumsiness ArmA 2 sports, head bob that many players are not clever enough to tweak and yeah, exploiters that like to lay on the roof and scan for players without exposing themselves. SA can fix the first two issues, bringing the first two groups back to first person. What do we have left? Nay-sayers stuck in the old ways and exploiters.

And to me exploits break immersion and the game itself MUCH more than such miniscule things like narrower FOV (also, there is a ton of games with no TPV and you didn't complan, did you?) or "fog of war"\shading\bluring in third person (which is immersion breaker itself).

Edited May 8, 2013 by WiFiN

[King Tubbs 224]

I would love to see this implemented, i like have single number FPS

in short trying to implement this would push possessors to the limit

[enforcer1975 1111]

The people who want third person would be opposed to this idea as I don't think many of them want third person to look at their character, rather look around obstacles.

I never play as third person (unless no first person mode available), so this will be good to curb exploits.

Haha, look at one's character....lame excuse to justify the use of 3rd person imo...

[mr_chabowski@live.co.uk 2416]

Haha, look at one's character....lame excuse to justify the use of 3rd person imo...

Hardly.

It's the only reason I bother with 3dp.

Since the new inventory menu from the PAX demo shows your character, clothing etc. 3dp loses its necessity. To me at least.

EDIT:

Bear in mind, there's still folks who get legitimate motion sickness from FPV in ArmA2. Even with FOV up and all head-bobbing/aim-deadzone off entirely.

I haven't heard much about it in regards to ArmA3. But that's probably because I haven't looked it up.

I'd imagine DayZ will be closer to A3 than A2, and they're getting a NEW player skeleton and animations, so it'll be different still.

Edited May 8, 2013 by Chabowski

[Clent 0]

I choose to solely play in third-person because I enjoy the better FOV, and the fact that I can see my character actually do things.

Couldn't the camera be moved closer to the character instead for an over-the-shoulder view at a slight angle, so that one can see in front and to the side, but not behind or overt things?

[colekern 1364]

I choose to solely play in third-person because I enjoy the better FOV, and the fact that I can see my character actually do things.

Couldn't the camera be moved closer to the character instead for an over-the-shoulder view at a slight angle, so that one can see in front and to the side, but not behind or overt things?

That could work.

[beezle (DayZ) 1]

not sure about implementation challenges, but the idea rocks.

[colekern 1364]

not sure about implementation challenges, but the idea rocks.

They already have a LOS mechanic for zombie spawns, so this wouldn't be too hard.

[Stoned Orangutan 31]

No.

[colekern 1364]

No.

Care to explain why? You're adding nothing to the thread.

[Lady Kyrah 1109]

using a LOS based fog of war. Interesting idea, but they are usually found in games that use a tile system to build the game world.

And i assume that there is an exellent reason for that.

[pawlzz 18]

It is a very good Idea, really, but in a 3D game it would look visually awful, I think.

If you manage it to look aesthetically well, it would be golden.

A foggy-like thing sounds good, but it would look totally unrealistic. Suggestions?

EDIT: Good tags :D

Edited May 15, 2013 by Pawlzz

[Ken Bean 174]

I would be okay with hiding player or npcs which are not in the line of sight of the first person view.

Would at least be a solution.

[colekern 1364]

I would love to see this implemented, i like have single number FPS

in short trying to implement this would push possessors to the limit

Umm... no it wouldn't.

I'm not sure if you realize this, but there is already a LOS mechanic for zombie spawns.

[Ken Bean 174]

I don't think it would be too complicated to implement a function which gets the LOS from the head's position while you are in 3rd person. The head already turns around if you freelook left or right, so if you stand in front of a wall, the npc/player behind it would not be in the line of sight of the head and could be hidden for 3rd person view. Difficult might be things which could be seen not entirely, but lets say half.

-> Should they be rendered full or half? Wouldn't it look strange? :-/

Edited May 17, 2013 by Ken Bean

[lipemr 160]

the third person on SA gameplay videos is already changed, it will be much harder to exploit 3rd camera, i think.