How are helicopters realistic?

[cheezitschrist 15]

I always laugh when I see people on these forums talking about how much they love "hardcore realism" but then the minute you mention something they like in the game that is actually very unrealistic, they defend it.

I'm just wondering, how is it realistic that every random survivor of this zombie apocalypse knows how to pilot a military chopper? It takes about 5 minutes of learning to become good enough at it to have no problems.

Seems to me if we're all about realism and such, it's time to remove those choppers that all the "hardcore realism" guys, especially the bandits, love so much.

[syn111 2]

It is actually not much more difficult to fly a helicopter in a real flight simulator... It is the complex and changing atmospheric conditions in the real world what makes flying anything that flies an actual challenge...

[Bribase 251]

Increasing difficulty in terms of control and startup sequence is being discussed here. There are plenty of forum members that think that a heli pilot needs to know a thing or two about it before he takes to the skies (Finkone got 18 cans of beans for his OP).

[Zombie Jesus 723]

Maybe we are former helicopter pilots chezypuuf...I mean Cheezitschrist.

They should make it more difficult though.

[fwisky 105]

Helicopters are realistic in dayz... They fly right guys?...guys?

[ZomboWTF 527]

So how would you make it harder to do? i mean, actually flying, not this damn startup stuff from Take on Helicopters people are discussing about... i dont want to have 5 minutes time lost to start that damn thing

the controls of the helicopter seem fine to me, maybe repairing one should be harder, but you can't really make flying even more difficult without having to assign too many buttons or exclude people without a joystick flying a helo

saying things are bad is easy, giving ideas on how to make things better is a bit harder to do

Edited February 23, 2013 by Zombo

[jaytmuk (DayZ) 621]

I always laugh when I see people on these forums talking about how much they love "hardcore realism" but then the minute you mention something they like in the game that is actually very unrealistic, they defend it.

I'm just wondering, how is it realistic that every random survivor of this zombie apocalypse knows how to pilot a military chopper? It takes about 5 minutes of learning to become good enough at it to have no problems.

Seems to me if we're all about realism and such, it's time to remove those choppers that all the "hardcore realism" guys, especially the bandits, love so much.

Nothing on any game is realistic, Unless the control things in real life with a mouse and have a screen to look at lol

[Bribase 251]

So how would you make it harder to do? i mean, actually flying, not this damn startup stuff from Take on Helicopters people are discussing about... i dont want to have 5 minutes time lost to start that damn thing

That thread arrived at about a 1min startup sequence with varying consequences is performed incorrectly. FinKone's OP contained plenty of ideas about increasing difficulty from dealing with tolerences to stress to handling adverse weather conditions.

[aussiestig 681]

Increasing difficulty in terms of control and startup sequence is being discussed here. There are plenty of forum members that think that a heli pilot needs to know a thing or two about it before he takes to the skies (Finkone got 18 cans of beans for his OP).

As someone who's spent hundreds and hundreds of hours flying in Arma, I think that this is utterly stupid. Why would you make flying a helicopter difficult and time consuming when in vanilla dayz you only find a helicopter once a month if you're lucky.

In the DayZ SA we won't have servers with 7000 helicopters, so finding one would be difficult. What's the point if you find one and no one knows how to fly it? It sounds like a stupid idea to me.

If you want to make it harder, get rid of Auto Hover

Edited February 23, 2013 by AussieStig

[colekern 1364]

As someone who's spent hundreds and hundreds of hours flying in Arma, I think that this is utterly stupid. Why would you make flying a helicopter difficult and time consuming when in vanilla dayz you only find a helicopter once a month if you're lucky.

In the DayZ SA we won't have servers with 7000 helicopters, so finding one would be difficult. What's the point if you find one and no one knows how to fly it? It sounds like a stupid idea to me.

If you want to make it harder, get rid of Auto Hover

I rarely use autohover.

[aussiestig 681]

I rarely use autohover.

Yeah, but 95% of people who play DayZ do you use auto hover

[Bribase 251]

As someone who's spent hundreds and hundreds of hours flying in Arma, I think that this is utterly stupid. Why would you make flying a helicopter difficult and time consuming when in vanilla dayz you only find a helicopter once a month if you're lucky.

The need to familiarise yourself with the startup sequence reflects the difficulty of being able to operate a helicopter IRL. Secondly, having a 1min startup sequence while the engine warms up would increase tension and risk by making lots of noise and being essentially immobile, leaving players with the difficult decision of whether or not to keep the rotors spinning while landing in high PvP areas. Thirdly, the helicopter has a massive payoff in game for a player and should be considered endgame equipment, this should be moderated by needing to be a sufficiently experienced pilot to operate one.

In the DayZ SA we won't have servers with 7000 helicopters, so finding one would be difficult. What's the point if you find one and no one knows how to fly it? It sounds like a stupid idea to me.

You could make a similar point about about sniper weapons that employ mildots. They are incredibly rare, why would they bother to make players have to account for bullet drop? Whats the point if you find a DMR and no one knows how to use it? Because rare items should require some experience to use effectively, because such mechanics reflect the difficulty of using such things IRL, and finally because players learn to use them.

If you want to make it harder, get rid of Auto Hover

Good idea.

Edited February 23, 2013 by Bribase

[aussiestig 681]

The need to familiarise yourself with the startup sequence reflects the difficulty of being able to operate a helicopter IRL. Secondly, having a 1min startup sequence while the engine warms up would increase tension and risk by making lots of noise and being essentially immobile, leaving players with the difficult decision of whether or not to keep the rotors spinning while landing in high PvP areas. Thirdly, the helicopter has a massive payoff in game for a player and should be considered endgame equipment, this should be moderated by needing to be a sufficiently experienced pilot to operate one.

You could make a similar point about about sniper weapons that employ mildots. They are incredibly rare, why would they bother to make players have to account for bullet drop? Whats the point if you find a DMR and no one knows how to use it? Because rare items should require some experience to use effectively, because such mechanics reflect the difficulty of using such things IRL, and finally because players learn to use them.

Good idea.

But how do you teach players about a start up sequence? There is no helicopter tutorial for dayz, and there never will be. If you find a helicopter, then that is the only time you're ever going to be flying one. You don't get to practice.

I just cannot understand how you think adding in a start up sequence, and making it a little harder to fly would be a better option than to just make the helicopter have severe wear and tear with the engine and such.

Everyone's played BF3, right? The game has the easiest choppers to fly that I've ever experienced in a game to be honest, the response time is instant, they have no weight to them, you can bash them into anything, and hitting the blades on anything does nothing. Yet people complained about how they were too hard to fly for months and months after the game was released. Imagine what kind of uproar there would be if every single player that found a helicopter in dayz couldn't fly it because they had no idea how to start it, and when they did they crashed it straight away.

[Bribase 251]

But how do you teach players about a start up sequence? There is no helicopter tutorial for dayz, and there never will be. If you find a helicopter, then that is the only time you're ever going to be flying one. You don't get to practice.

Like in a real life post-apocalyptic situation? If you read the thread you'll find that the startup, if performed improperly, results in the chopper emitting an alarm and resetting. We're not talking about some catastrophic explosion if done wrong; just a little knowhow and patience to ensure the chopper is ready to fly.

I just cannot understand how you think adding in a start up sequence, and making it a little harder to fly would be a better option than to just make the helicopter have severe wear and tear with the engine and such.

I'm not excluding that. I already explained in this thread and the one I linked to why a short startup sequence should be suitable.

Everyone's played BF3, right? The game has the easiest choppers to fly that I've ever experienced in a game to be honest, the response time is instant, they have no weight to them, you can bash them into anything, and hitting the blades on anything does nothing. Yet people complained about how they were too hard to fly for months and months after the game was released. Imagine what kind of uproar there would be if every single player that found a helicopter in dayz couldn't fly it because they had no idea how to start it, and when they did they crashed it straight away.

I addressed this point in the thread I linked to. The bottom line is that the success DayZ (and the Arma series as a whole) can be attributed to a single factor, it's that gamers crave a challenge. People want DayZ to be tough and a well implemented and convincing design of helicopter use is another extension of this.

[aussiestig 681]

I'll disagree with you until the day your thread dies and none of these features are implemented. It simply does not fit the game that is DayZ in any way at all.

You're trying to turn helicopters into this ultra realistic thing that only 1 person in your group will be able to do because it's difficult, yet everyone can use firearms straight up, fix vehicles, administer blood transfusions and morphine, gut animals. All of these things are things that are done daily in DayZ, if not hourly, and all of them would require training in real life, some of which like fixing vehicles would require months, if not years of training. Yet, you want to make flying helicopters, the one thing that happens once a month if you're extremely lucky, as I've said multiple times before. There is no justifiable reason as to why this needs to be in the game. Simply adding more wear and tear like I said would take a day of development time, and it's a simple yet game changing mechanic. What you want to do, is turn 0.01% of what this game is, into a simulator, when my much more simple idea makes a whole load more sense.

[Gooober 34]

Heli's promote PvP in my eyes.... I know one of the mods have like a boat/heli vehicle that i think is more realistic.....

[Bribase 251]

I'll disagree with you until the day your thread dies and none of these features are implemented. It simply does not fit the game that is DayZ in any way at all.

Well, it appears that my reasons for it's inclusion aren't enough to convince you. It's probably not worth persuing our discussion any further. I've done my best to explain why it adds complexity, tension and realism but you don't buy it. Fair enough.

Oh... And it isn't my thread. I'm beginning to think you haven't read it.

You're trying to turn helicopters into this ultra realistic thing that only 1 person in your group will be able to do because it's difficult, yet everyone can use firearms straight up, fix vehicles, administer blood transfusions and morphine, gut animals. All of these things are things that are done daily in DayZ, if not hourly, and all of them would require training in real life, some of which like fixing vehicles would require months, if not years of training. Yet, you want to make flying helicopters, the one thing that happens once a month if you're extremely lucky, as I've said multiple times before. There is no justifiable reason as to why this needs to be in the game. Simply adding more wear and tear like I said would take a day of development time, and it's a simple yet game changing mechanic. What you want to do, is turn 0.01% of what this game is, into a simulator, when my much more simple idea makes a whole load more sense.

The ability to administer transfusions, use weapons, fix vehicles and gut animals doesn't sit perfectly well for me either. They fall under the banner of things that I'm willing to suspend disbelief about for the sake of the game. The difference between these things and piloting a helicopter is that while weapon use, first aid and vehicle maintainence e.t.c. benefit the player to some degree, access to a helicopter means total domination of the server.

As it stands, any player that has the heli can literally rise above the dangers of being a survivor. Once you're airbourne most players and all zombies are no longer a threat, you can zip around the game map, helping yourself to the best loot and picking up fallen squad members from the coast in an instant. I maintain that requiring some skill and knowhow to be a decent pilot is neither unrealistic, too difficult to code nor too demanding of players.

Edited February 23, 2013 by Bribase

[A Lumberjack 32]

I think that when you factor in the time and effort it takes to repair and fuel the damned things it kind of balances itself out. It's not so much the ease of flying it, it's the difficulty in keeping it. A well placed AS50 shot can take one down and everyone is after you when they see you flying.

My suggestion and I think a lot of us can agree that on veteran servers remove autohover.

[RuecanOnRails (DayZ) 23]

The helicopters flight model in stand alone has been talked about many times over the past several months. Doing a quick search will reveal lots of suggestions, ideas, and concepts.

By the looks of stand alone it should and hopefully take the flight dynamics from Take on Helicopters.

My thoughts on whether or not the flight should be changed in standalone is yes. Having more meta gameplay in dayz such as aviation and becoming a skilled pilot would add so much more to the game. Difficulty of flight should be that of take on helicopters hardest mode. All of the instruments in the cockpit actually work, there is no need to have static images displayed on the screen as a HUD. I'd also prefer first person only when flying.

The game would need some basic tutorials, just some basic mission files similar to the armory in arma 2 oa. a small test map to fly around and learn properly maintain the helicopter.

One addition I would like to see, is the ability to sabotage a helicopter discretely. loosen some bolts on the tail rotor which can only be detected by inspecting that part of the helicopter during pre-flight inspection. Adding a little bit of risk if you want to skip the inspection in order to take off faster.

here's a couple of threads using quick search.

http://dayzmod.com/forum/index.php?/topic/104763-standalone-and-helicopters/

http://dayzmod.com/forum/index.php?/topic/101807-realistic-helicopter-control-simulation/

http://dayzmod.com/forum/index.php?/topic/110828-takeonhelicopters-controls-sa

[aussiestig 681]

Well, it appears that my reasons for it's inclusion aren't enough to convince you. It's probably not worth persuing our discussion any further. I've done my best to explain why it adds complexity, tension and realism but you don't buy it. Fair enough.

Oh... And it isn't my thread. I'm beginning to think you haven't read it.

The ability to administer transfusions, use weapons, fix vehicles and gut animals doesn't sit perfectly well for me either. They fall under the banner of things that I'm willing to suspend disbelief about for the sake of the game. The difference between these things and piloting a helicopter is that while weapon use, first aid and vehicle maintainence e.t.c. benefit the player to some degree, access to a helicopter means total domination of the server.

As it stands, any player that has the heli can literally rise above the dangers of being a survivor. Once you're airbourne most players and all zombies are no longer a threat, you can zip around the game map, helping yourself to the best loot and picking up fallen squad members from the coast in an instant. I maintain that requiring some skill and knowhow to be a decent pilot is neither unrealistic, too difficult to code nor too demanding of players.

Since when did dayz need balancing? It takes time to get top tier gear, that's the only balancing there needs to be.

I've never had an experience where a group with a helicopter had a major upper hand on me while on the ground. Shooting off the side of a helicopter moving at 200kph is not easy, and it doesn't help that the 240's are very ammo limited. In a shootout, a heli is useless to be honest.

I agree that heli's are very useful when it comes to getting to and from places, but you also have to hide your heli when you aren't using it, and anyone can find it when you're offline.

The best option would be add in wear and tear, like I've said a billion times now. After a few hours flight, you engine should need a change, and you should need new rotors every now and then. There should be random failures, but not the kind that totally render the heli uses, just anti-torque failures and, and losing 50% engine power and things like that. They add the unknown to the helicopter, something that should be there considering you're in russia, and there is a zombie apocalypse. Not everything should work all the time

[AshleyP 121]

I'm just wondering, how is it realistic that every random survivor of this zombie apocalypse knows how to pilot a military chopper? It takes about 5 minutes of learning to become good enough at it to have no problems.

This goes all the way back to Operation: Flashpoint, in which you were a lowly infantry soldier who could also drive and command an M1 tank better than a trained tank crew. In fact it was generally easier to drive and fight in the tank solo, without messing around with LEFT! FORWARD! LEFT! FORWARD! all the time. Same with BMPs, sniper rifles, LAWs etc, you just knew how to use them. And reload them, which is odd in the case of LAW rockets.

In DayZ a helicopter is thematically appropriate - Dawn of the Dead had a helicopter, with lethal whirling blades - and there are few more effective ways of getting around, so it makes sense that the game would have one. The problem then is striking a balance between realistic helicopter flight and accessibility. I've read Chickenhawk, a book about a real-life Huey pilot in the Vietnam war. He had a fixed-wing private pilot's licence before he started his helicopter training, but even so he found it very difficult to transition to helicopters. He started on piston-driven Sikorskis before moving to the UH-1, which was apparently easier to fly (it had auto-throttle and much more power) but nothing in the book suggests that flying a helicopter was easy in the 1960s and I suspect it's still very difficult.

In my opinion the current model strikes a good balance between difficulty and accessibility, although I would prefer it if they got rid of auto-hover and added wind. It's still tricky enough to catch out the unwary, but not so hard that it's impossible to take off and land. The rarity makes it awkward, from a gameplay point of view, to teach the player how to fly. It would be unrewarding for the player if he fought through hell and high water only to find a helicopter that he can't use; and a dedicated set of tutorial missions would be disproportionate given how rare helicopters are in the game. I'm sure the developers are pondering the arcade / simulation balance at this very moment, deep in their bunker in Eastern Europe.

Besides, the basic premise of the game is unrealistic. No way would I risk my life for some tins of macaroni and cheese. Packets of macaroni and cheese, yes - I love macaroni and cheese - but not tins. The sauce is horrible. Mountain Dew, again, I might risk my life for Mountain Dew, because they don't sell it in the UK any more. They used to, back in the late 1990s. It was like Sprite but with twice the sugar. One of the few drinks that can simultaneously cause AND cure a heart attack. But you can't get it any more. And that's not right.

[s4pphire 45]

Stop implying it's difficult to pilot a small aircraft in optimal weather conditions in real-life. It isn't. A mentally challenged person has a good shot at landing a small plane in optimal conditions if there's a runway nearby (Chernarus is small and has three). Piloting it appropriately by using navigational instruments without visibility and performing certain maneuvers is difficult, very difficult.

Disregarding all the above, most people absolutely suck at flying and still manage to crash whatever they find (including cars, surprisingly), so this topic is pretty useless to begin with but whatever. Once you see people performing C130 crosswind landings at night on a carrier with ease you can start complaining, until then, the removal of auto-hover will be sufficient.

Thanks.

[Target Practice (DayZ) 1335]

I'm not sure where I stand on this - I've been playing since OFP and was never any good at flying Helis, even then. However, with ARMA II and DayZ both featuring them, I figured I'd drop a tenner on a cheap flight stick and give it another crack. After a few hours' practice (and more crashes than I'm willing to admit) in the editor, I'm reasonably happy with 'basic' piloting. I can take off, whizz around the countryside at low-level buzzing cows, and put down in a field fairly comfortably.

Where I struggle a little more is the advanced stuff - that bizarre 'emergency stop' turn that I've seen folks doing in youtube videos that looks like if it was tried in real life it would rip the rotors off and stops the heli damn near dead - can't work out how the hell that's done at all.

The other one is landing quickly on rooftops - I just can't seem to get the approach right - I can do it in the end, but it takes a good 60 seconds or so of faffing and near-misses, which is more than enough time to either aggro every zombie in the city or to get myself shot through the cockpit by a nearby sniper.

Maybe I'm just a terrible pilot, but there needs to be a balance of some kind - Helis should be more or less usable by anyone with a couple of hours' practice, or they're going to be so cripplingly overspecialised that most people will just shoot the things or leave them be. On the other hand, you also need to make them tricky enough so that only a truly excellent pilot can do the really useful stuff like coming in low over Cherno and dropping a couple of people off on the hospital roof, or landing and taking off quickly under heavy fire.

[mjkproductions 12]

I don't think its absurbly unrealistic, its hard to fly one, especially with autohover off. I've crashed plenty in a few months, and it takes time. After months of flying, I was trying to land our heli tightly in my friend's camp for him (he was a new pilot and didn't wanna risk it) and to be honest, it took me about 10 minutes to land it. It takes skill.

[rn_max 202]

I'm more bothered by the freebie parachute, which allows kamikaze pilots to bail out just before impact and dump an aircraft on your head. Remove that and perhaps auto hover.