On game design, "progression through equipment", and a system of micro-skills

[logan23 118]

That's what I'm saying, you have to "wait" for a certain time before your skill can increase again. Even if you start bleeding and have to bandage yourself 3 times every hour, your skill improvement would be the same as if you had only bandaged once every hour.

Definitely, I never questionned that.

As I said, weather, disease and wounds influence everything. You need to drink more if it's dry and hot, eat more if you run a lot, etc.

Sorry, there is to much text to read so i skimmed :P

[GodOfGrain 191]

I think the general rule for "getting better at A by doing A" is:

The drawback for performing (/or being able to perform) an action has to be that huge,

that the thought "could I train this somehow" wouldn't come to someones mind.

That is can be done in some areas. Medicals is the best example:

Everytime you are hurt by something, there is a ~5-15% chance to get an infection.

Problem solved perfectly, in a realistic and very effective way.

You are right Nihilisst, there should be areas where progression is not (soley) depending on time.

Would be a shame not to implement that within the possibilites of such a system. I have thought

of the two skills medicals & technicals.

Lets have a look at the progressionin in technical skills:

Drawback:

- Time effort: To finish a repair action takes between 5 mins (tire) to 10 mins (engine).

Exp only granted if action is completly finished

- Risk: During this action a soundfile is played (*repair sounds*) which can be heared by other players over some distance.

- Risk #2: (Very small) chance of hurting yourself during a repair (0.5 - 1% / repair)

- Weight / size of repair parts prevents people of carrying repair parts with them just for the sake of using them should they find a vehicle.

I took me quite some time of brainstorming to come up with this set of drawbacks.

The drawback is not as efficient as in the case of medicals, but I think efficient enough.

All of those points are also realistic.

Now let's look at some other areas:

Stamina:

Learning by doing? Running around. Hell, that's what we do all the time anyway.

No need to complicate things, just raise over time.

Strength:

This area would probably progress by carrying lot of weight, performing actions like chopping wood.

We need an efficient / realistic drawback, and what could that be?

Let's take "chopping wood". You could say, your axe degrades over time while using.

But this isn't a proper solution: When you come across an item you should always think:

"An axe, ok, now I am able to chop wood" and not "Cool, an axe, now I can chop wood 10 times to gain exp"

(Or even worse "Damn... an axe... now I have to run into the woods and chop wood 10 times to gain exp")

Drawback to carrying heavy stuff around? Difficult, very difficult.

That would involve the introduction of something like ... "tiredness / fatigue".

Currently: You wait 15 sec after a 1-hour-run, then you are back in business.

New: You run for an hour, "tiredness / fatigue" raises to a high level

--> negative effects of some sort, effecting not only combat efficiency. You have to rest for 5-15 mins.

Quite a nice mechanic, even without a system of micro-skills.

But it still does not solve the grinding problematic perfectly.

You'd have at least some people who do the following:

"Run into Cherno, grab some heavy stuff into backpack, run through the woods, get tired, wait for 10 mins, repeat"

Ok... combined with "scarcity of water" / "running around requires quite a lot of water"...

still not... those guys would run around a lake :D

Getting nice and clean drawbacks is difficult. It should be possible in more areas

than medical & technic skills though. But is it necessary?

I would vote for the time being to introduce the system of micro skills with most of them raising just over time,

while medicals & mechanics are learning by doing.

But damn, longterm this has so much potential. The possibilities to link this system with other game mechanics are huge.

Edited February 2, 2013 by GodOfGrain

[joe_mcentire 2074]

hej some news on this topic: http://dayzmod.com/f...t/#entry1197704

follow the link in the link ;) a nice interview and insight of dev's idea of a possible skill system..

..as i consider this thread as well as its predecessor as mostly valuable to this community!!!ONEELEVEN

WHERE IS MY GOD?..here i offer a sacrifice for my God of Grain!

[joe_mcentire 2074]

well Dean is talking about, of course not skills in a conventional, but skills in a subtle way pretty much a style on which we already agreed after several discussions and heavy but constructive debating. (well Dean..we know where you got your ideas from ;)).

But he also adds another layer.. he talks about special "perks" which not everyone simply could gain. This is something worth to keep on debating, as i understand, not everyone would approve something like this.

In fact we were talking about that prior at some point but somehow dismissed that idea...

[GodOfGrain 191]

I think I'll just quote the relevant passage from this recent interview with Rocket:

"Are you baking more social dynamics and mechanics into the game, or are you happy to leave those interactions up to the players?

[...]

We’re looking at ideas, and we haven’t actually implemented these yet, but we’re looking at how we could have it so that some skills, maybe, are socially learned or enhanced. Maybe very advanced skills, like being a doctor, the ability to do very specific things like suturing, might be earned those ways.

We’re looking at how we could have it so that some skills, maybe, are socially learned or enhanced…like being a doctor

We’re still undecided about that, because we really want to have the game avoid things like specific skill trees and stuff like that. But having it socially developed as a skill, or something you get better at through repeated use, and more of those options for social interaction like suturing, setting fractures, these kinds of things are social options. The best example we have at the moment are blood transfusions, which seem to be well-received as a reason to socially interact.

Absolutely, but I don’t want to get people’s hopes up about a skill system or skill tree, so we’re more looking at how players develop the abilities to do certain things, and how players develop the ability to get better at doing things.

To provide a tangible example of something we know we want the player to do – we don’t want the player to start the game and choose how their character is going to be. That will actually come out as they play the game. An example would be wanting your character to wear a cowboy hat, camouflage jacket and black pants. You’re going to have to find those items in the world. Your humanity, and these kinds of things, will affect how you look. The way you play the game will affect your player. As we explore what the player can do, that is something we’re interested in, but it’s going to require a lot of experimentation.

We don’t want the player to start the game and choose how their character is going to be

A couple of examples we thought of were very advanced skills, such as advanced repair of aircraft and vehicles. That’s not a skill that everybody has. And various doctor-related skills. They aren’t things that everybody just has; they’re things that maybe people can learn, but they’ll require practice and maybe some social interaction."

[GodOfGrain 191]

So our mastermind himself is thinking about skills.

Rocket should really have a look at this discussion then...

I think as a community effort we managed to create a solid structure

to understand the possibilties and limitations of skills for DayZ.

Edited February 26, 2013 by GodOfGrain

[GodOfGrain 191]

well Dean is talking about, of course not skills in a conventional, but skills in a subtle way pretty much a style on which we already agreed after several discussions and heavy but constructive debating. (well Dean..we know where you got your ideas from ;)).

But he also adds another layer.. he talks about special "perks" which not everyone simply could gain. This is something worth to keep on debating, as i understand, not everyone would approve something like this.

In fact we were talking about that prior at some point but somehow dismissed that idea...

Indeed! Of course Dean is busy with other things these days...

But when he is talking about "learning by repeated use" and

praises the current bloodbag-mechanic... sounds like we're a bit ahead

of his thinking-process in this case ;)

[joe_mcentire 2074]

i would like to know what dean and his gang were thinking about when talking about perks...I could think of e.g. gaining special loot when doing some tasks. like gutting animals (gain +1 meat-chunk out of rabbits)

edit:

please anyone....try to read at least this thread up to the last post then try to argument.

PLEASE NO "THIS IS NOT WOW/RPG"

Edited March 1, 2013 by joe_mcentire

[HashSlingingSlasher192 29]

I think the appearance of the survivors should be the opposite: When you have nothing, you look thin, dirty and sick. Has you find supplies, gear and transportation, you start looking healthier and cleaner.

well It depends if you get a lot of medical equipment you should look healthy if you get a lot of things for hygiene you will look nicer. this is what yo would look like after a month in the world

[HashSlingingSlasher192 29]

there should be a way to downgrade your skills like not practicing it for a while or eating a lot of fat.

[GodOfGrain 191]

there should be a way to downgrade your skills like not practicing it for a while or eating a lot of fat.

within this system your overall efficiency would be reduced by gunshot wounds, illness, hunger or thirst

- permenantly of temporary.

Probably not by "not practicing" a skill. It's a good and simple solution to have most skill areas

progress just over "time played" - this gets rids of many problems like false incentives, abuse

and complexity. So this specific system here could not be combined with your idea.

So much potential... Some people complain a "skill system" to be unrealistic.

But they don't see a problem that a player gets a couple of .45 to the chest and runs away

happily, still 100% up to his strength. All of these things could be simulated adequately with

such a system in place.

Edited March 2, 2013 by GodOfGrain

[Jeremiah Cross 55]

I appreciate the amount of thought that went into the OP, very refreshing. Most posts are more along the "Hey lets add skills." or "I want more medical stuff."

That said, I disagree. I like the idea, and in another game I would probably support it, but it's just not what DayZ is. Besides, with a skill raised by use system, I still don't think you'd have a problem with people grinding out skills, What are they going to do, stand around shooting each other then bandaging up? They'll eventually run out of supplies and need to make a town run and probably get eaten. :D

I've written a few posts with ideas for how to add depth to mechanical and medical repairs, so I'll keep this brief.

What i would prefer, at least for medical and mechanical repairs, is a more in depth system where the player has to learn by trial and error, deduction or being taught by a more experienced player, how to determine the best course of action based on audio and visual cues (coughing engines or rattling coughs. Not big loud clues, but subtle ones you need to look for, and be able to understand their meaning.) And yes, I think improper medical treatment should result in further injury, infection, or even death.

We don't need mini games, they'd just get tedious.

Granted, with this system, you could just look at the Wiki to find all this out, but there really is no system that can't be circumvented in some way. Metagamers gonna metagame. If any new skill or player knowledge based system is implemented, it should keep an eye out for metagamers, but focus on rewarding those who want to experience the game for what it is.

Edited March 2, 2013 by Jeremiah Cross

[SeaMan (DayZ) 31]

Nonononononononono.Why do people want to add stuff thats not needed/wanted?

[joe_mcentire 2074]

Nonononononononono.Why do people want to add stuff thats not needed/wanted?

and thank you for keeping this thread floating on the water ;) (i really recommend, read through these so far 4 pages, then try to give a constructive answer)

moreover: at least 40% of the poll provided in the inital thread voted for such a skill mechanism & Dean and his team are seriously considering "subtle skills and perks".

as long as we do not start our stereotypical thinking process and try to be creative this could really add something for the long-term and atmosphere...even when the initial "WOW" of the SA would wear off

Edited March 11, 2013 by joe_mcentire

[GodOfGrain 191]

and thank you for keeping this thread floating on the water ;) (i really recommend, read through these so far 4 pages, then try to give a constructive answer)

moreover: at least 40% of the poll provided in the inital thread voted for such a skill mechanism & Dean and his team are seriously considering "subtle skills and perks".

as long as we do not start our stereotypical thinking process and try to be creative this could really add something for the long-term and atmosphere...even when the initial "WOW" of the SA would wear off

^^ had to smile

[roykingtree 125]

What about sort of incorporating Minecrafts way of survival experience. By surviving X days, you are able to do more?

[Tumoa 359]

i some what like this especially beard growth but not sure about leveling but if its this kind of leveling i don't mind

[joe_mcentire 2074]

well dean just recently talked about a text-based approach to get rid of any kind of hud-element (depict fever over text-output e.g.). well now this could also pave the way to subtly introduce sets of "microskills"...just sayin' ;)

[Dalfryth 2]

Nonononononononono.Why do people want to add stuff thats not needed/wanted?

"why do people want to add stuff thats not wanted"... nice way to contradict yourself in the same sentence :P

as a response to the thread in general... I like the concept of a kind of skill system... i have referred previously to the system in UO where you gained skills based on how much you did them BUT you could never max out all skills... adds a further depth to the game and means that groups have the benefit because members of the group can specialise (one guy does medical based skills... another does cooking based etc) but the skills learned MUST be lost on death... imagine the horror of a bandit attack killing the "medic" of the team and the remainder forced to "make do" until the player either works his skill up over time or they find a different "medic"

I cant say enough though that the benefits of improved skills must never be so high as to create an excessive difference... I'm saying (for example) that the "hunting" skill as it gets higher gives a (small) chance for getting extra meat when butchering a carcass... the "Medic" skill allows ether marginally faster bandage use OR marginally improved healing.

With this I also want to point out that if a "skill" is not used over a period of time then it starts to degrade... not talking all skill points lost if you dont butcher a sheep in an hour of gameplay but over a period of (in game) time you start to "forget" what you have learned.

Edited March 28, 2013 by Dalfryth

[rpatto92@hotmail.com 26]

I think a Mirco skill system as suggested is too arbitrary.

It's not really affected by how skilled the player is in anyway; you don't really gain anything based on what you're good at, it's based on time spent in-game. Even if you have it based on individual actions being strengthened by your use of them; you could still meta game the game, by sitting down somewhere and just lighting fires, to put your stick rubbing skills up.

I suppose you could have skills diminish; if you don't use them but again that's not really an organic reaction to the game world; you'll still know what to do the game, it just won't perform the way you expected too. This again doesn't work because essentially all you've done is allow the computer to say no, based on time you've spent playing.

In my view the only skills we should see in the game are player based, in order words; things you have control over. This is were in my opinion health, food/water and condition play into it. This is a direct catalyst; the more positive these things are; affects your ability to preform tasks.

Example:

If your cold; your ability to light fires will be decreased. You'll be slower; you might use more matches.

The only other way I can see skills used correctly is within crafting recipes.

Example:

Again back to fire: you might use different resources to start a fire; one will start the fire quickly but will burn out faster and use more resources another, might take longer to gather the correct materials but will light more easily and could be kept alight longer.

Essentially: my idea is to base the out come of tasks on a player ability to either look after their character or remember how to use items. This way things are a lot more organic and can be achieved by any player providing they know what they're doing. If there is something more artificially I might suggest; it would be, as a player accomplishes new tasks (like a more efficient way of making fire) the game automatically takes note. Which the player could later view for reference in future and again of course this would be reset on death.

[Talibambi 119]

I hate the idea of "skills" as unlockables or trees. There should just be "mini-game"~esque type stuff to do that you either practice at and get good at, or suck at - period.

Like how you learn to read a map.

I know a lot of people out there are afraid of being given "roles" within a group. Well guess what? Thats what you have to do in a survival situation.

Edited April 1, 2013 by Talibambi

[joe_mcentire 2074]

news for this topic

http://dayzmod.com/forum/index.php?/topic/139555-e3-expo-june-2013-interviews-and-gameplay/page__st__780#entry1378099

[nihilisst 43]

I'll just sneak in a copy-paste from a post I made on reddit:

Survivor Characters should definitely NOT be able to do everything with one click of the mouse button when they just start out.

Though they should be able to try. But if you try to do something about which you don't know anything, and have never tried it or seen anyone do it, you will most likely fail.

I would say, divide "Skills", or rather "Actions", in two categories: "Basic" and "Advanced".

[This concept also builds upon "improving through practice", where you get better (faster, more efficient, requiring less resources, better chance of success ...) the more often you perform an action]

• Basic actions being things every average survivor could and should be able to do. (Bandaging, reloading, taking pills, running, jumping, making fire, cooking meat, ...)
  

• Advanced actions are those that would - in real life - require special training or education. (Gutting and skinning animals, fixing an engine, giving an IV, ...) Though you can still try and perform the action before learning it, but with a very high (>99%) chance of failure.
  

• Crafting is the third pillar of this "skill" system. As it's most likely based on combining items, the "skill" or rather knowledge required to craft things comes from the player knowing (or not knowing) which items to combine in what order.
  

• How to learn an advanced action?: I see 3 possibilities:
  
  • Choose one (or more) at character creation (though this is close to a "class" system that Rocket doesn't want. But it doesn't exclude the other 2, you can still learn something in addition to what you choose at the start)
    
  • Learn from "Handbooks" found throughout the world. (To add immersion, these could be actual handbooks, literally explaining the action.)
    
  • Learn from other Survivors. (Simply "click -> teach skill -> finished. Or it could require you to be next to the teacher while he performs the action.)
    

  [*]Improving skills: This and the division "basic-advanced" don't require each other, though they'd work best together.

  Rocket has talked about this, "improving your skill as you practice them".

  • Basic actions: Very simple; the more often you do something, the better you get. (You start bleeding and need to bandage often? You'll get more efficient at it - mostly faster than before)
    
  • Advanced actions: Once you've learned them, they improve like the basic actions. (Gut an animal every day? You'll get more and higher quality meat/pelt/parts after some time)
    
  • Crafting: Could work the same. (If you build a lot of traps to catch small animals, you'll end up needing less material, build them faster, make them more durable...)
    

• Handbooks & Recipes:
  Handbooks are books that can teach you advanced actions. But you have you read them completely, it isn't enough to just look at the cover. They could even contain literal explanations of how to perform the action. (So you'd not only learn in-game, but also IRL)
  edit: In addition to that, Handbooks that you carry with you, can give you a boost to your skill, in addition to what they taught you. (thx to CanOfCandid for the idea)
  Recipes contain information about how to craft things. But they are not required. They can just give you certainty about the materials and parts needed, and (if that's a factor) in which order they are to combine. You could as well just try until something happens, or you could already know the recipe (from previous characters or real-life experience).
  

• "Skill Grinding":
  A huge problem in RPGs that use this "improvement through practice" concept is "skill-grinding". (Doing something over and over again until the skill is maxed out). This could be a problem in DayZ too (if this system is adapted). People just reloading their weapon while traveling, to be as fast at reloading as possible.
  A solution for that could be a "skill grinding cap" (see [1] this mod for skyrim).
  How it works? It limits the advancement per X hours/day. You can do it over and over again, but after some time it just won't have an impact on your skill anymore, until X hours pass. (with DayZ's 1:1 timescale, those are real hours, that also pass while you're offline)
  

• Skill Capping
  There needs to be a maximum value for skills. A long-term survivor should be significantly better than a new spawn, but should not be an overpowered tank.
  

• Needed Practice, preventing OP Characters
  Another thing that could prevent Characters from becoming all-knowing omnipotent geniuses, would be to require practice to keep a skill at level. If you don't perform the action regularly, your skill will slowly degrade.
  Another thing could be to use the same skill grinding cap (see above) for all skills at the same time. So you can't improve skill #1, then #2, #3, etc and after you arrive at skill #n, start again because the time has passed. But, if skill #1 is improved, the advancement of all other skills is slowed as well. This of course requires a lot of balancing.
  

• UI and menus
  My concept doesn't involve any form of skill menus, character sheets, perk trees, "level up" or "skill XY improved" pop-ups. Everything runs in the background, it's just numbers being calculated.
  The feedback the player can only be felt and seen when playing and observing the character's behaviour and performance.
  Though the possibility to access some kind of detailed statistic (online, only in the main menu, outside the game) could be nice.
  Also, a "journal" that contains (character-specific) found and discovered recipes, notes on advanced skills. This journal can of course be found by others (if you die or drop it), that can profit from your experience.
  

• Impact of Skills on Characters performance
  Every action reacts differently to being improved. It can be one or multiple of these: time needed, resources needed, durability, amount and quality of items created, chance of success, ...
  

• "Minigames"
  Another possibility to create a difference between "basic" and "advanced" actions, would be minigames. Though they can and will quickly become repetitive, boring and annoying. I personally have no idea for any minigame that's at the same time immersive, realistic, fun to do and not repetitive.
  

• Player skill
  One of the first argument people give against a skill system, is that their own skill (not the characters) should determine how good they are. That's true.
  BUT. When I talk about all these "skills" that you can improve, I'm not talking about skills that are directly influenced by player skill. I'm not talking about aiming or weapon damage, or the ability to avoid zombies or other players.
  The skills I talk about are those that - currently - are just one or two mouse clicks. No amount of player skill can influence how fast your character bandages himself. But it's logical that he gets better at it, the more he does it.
  

• Advanced Actions:
  Of course reading a handbook or learning from a teacher doesn't give you a sudden skill boost from 0 to Max. But your initial skill level after learning the action is rather low. I'd suggest to make it XY% of the teacher's skill level or - if learned from a book - a fixed skill level, but still lower than the starting level for basic skills.
  

mad skillz, brah.

http://www.reddit.co...oll_and/ca80ndj

Edited June 19, 2013 by Nihilisst

[joe_mcentire 2074]

I'll just sneak in a copy-paste from a post I made on reddit:

Survivor Characters should definitely NOT be able to do everything with one click of the mouse button when they just start out.

Though they should be able to try. But if you try to do something about which you don't know anything, and have never tried it or seen anyone do it, you will most likely fail.

I would say, divide "Skills", or rather "Actions", in two categories: "Basic" and "Advanced".

[This concept also builds upon "improving through practice", where you get better (faster, more efficient, requiring less resources, better chance of success ...) the more often you perform an action]

• Basic actions being things every average survivor could and should be able to do. (Bandaging, reloading, taking pills, running, jumping, making fire, cooking meat, ...)
  

• Advanced actions are those that would - in real life - require special training or education. (Gutting and skinning animals, fixing an engine, giving an IV, ...) Though you can still try and perform the action before learning it, but with a very high (>99%) chance of failure.
  

• Crafting is the third pillar of this "skill" system. As it's most likely based on combining items, the "skill" or rather knowledge required to craft things comes from the player knowing (or not knowing) which items to combine in what order.
  

• How to learn an advanced action?: I see 3 possibilities:
  
  • Choose one (or more) at character creation (though this is close to a "class" system that Rocket doesn't want. But it doesn't exclude the other 2, you can still learn something in addition to what you choose at the start) ABSOLUTE NO from me here.
    
  • Learn from "Handbooks" found throughout the world. (To add immersion, these could be actual handbooks, literally explaining the action.)..mmhh..i can think of books with "flora and fauna" explaining which berries are edible and which not or things like these...
    
  • Learn from other Survivors. (Simply "click -> teach skill -> finished. Or it could require you to be next to the teacher while he performs the action.)...i don't know, i think more of a "the more the merrier approach" explicitly when repairing items.
    

I really don't know about that advanced skill things. I think skills should stay subtle and shouldn't become one basic core of the game.

• Improving skills: This and the division "basic-advanced" don't require each other, though they'd work best together.
  Rocket has talked about this, "improving your skill as you practice them".
  
  • Basic actions: Very simple; the more often you do something, the better you get. (You start bleeding and need to bandage often? You'll get more efficient at it - mostly faster than before)
    
  • Advanced actions: Once you've learned them, they improve like the basic actions. (Gut an animal every day? You'll get more and higher quality meat/pelt/parts after some time)
    
  • Crafting: Could work the same. (If you build a lot of traps to catch small animals, you'll end up needing less material, build them faster, make them more durable...)
    

• Handbooks & Recipes:
  Handbooks are books that can teach you advanced actions. But you have you read them completely, it isn't enough to just look at the cover. They could even contain literal explanations of how to perform the action. (So you'd not only learn in-game, but also IRL)
  edit: In addition to that, Handbooks that you carry with you, can give you a boost to your skill, in addition to what they taught you. (thx to CanOfCandid for the idea)
  Recipes contain information about how to craft things. But they are not required. They can just give you certainty about the materials and parts needed, and (if that's a factor) in which order they are to combine. You could as well just try until something happens, or you could already know the recipe (from previous characters or real-life experience).
  

• "Skill Grinding":
  A huge problem in RPGs that use this "improvement through practice" concept is "skill-grinding". (Doing something over and over again until the skill is maxed out). This could be a problem in DayZ too (if this system is adapted). People just reloading their weapon while traveling, to be as fast at reloading as possible.
  A solution for that could be a "skill grinding cap" (see [1] this mod for skyrim).
  How it works? It limits the advancement per X hours/day. You can do it over and over again, but after some time it just won't have an impact on your skill anymore, until X hours pass. (with DayZ's 1:1 timescale, those are real hours, that also pass while you're offline) Very good idea!
  

• Skill Capping
  There needs to be a maximum value for skills. A long-term survivor should be significantly better than a new spawn, but should not be an overpowered tank.
  

I disagree. you shouldn't be significantly better. If ever skills should give you little boosts to better in PVE rather then PVP. Advantages in survival not combat!

• Needed Practice, preventing OP Characters
  Another thing that could prevent Characters from becoming all-knowing omnipotent geniuses, would be to require practice to keep a skill at level. If you don't perform the action regularly, your skill will slowly degrade. Could work for some actions yes.
  Another thing could be to use the same skill grinding cap (see above) for all skills at the same time. So you can't improve skill #1, then #2, #3, etc and after you arrive at skill #n, start again because the time has passed. But, if skill #1 is improved, the advancement of all other skills is slowed as well. This of course requires a lot of balancing.
  

• UI and menus
  My concept doesn't involve any form of skill menus, character sheets, perk trees, "level up" or "skill XY improved" pop-ups. Everything runs in the background, it's just numbers being calculated.
  The feedback the player can only be felt and seen when playing and observing the character's behaviour and performance.
  Though the possibility to access some kind of detailed statistic (online, only in the main menu, outside the game) could be nice.
  Also, a "journal" that contains (character-specific) found and discovered recipes, notes on advanced skills. This journal can of course be found by others (if you die or drop it), that can profit from your experience. I like that part.
  

• Impact of Skills on Characters performance
  Every action reacts differently to being improved. It can be one or multiple of these: time needed, resources needed, durability, amount and quality of items created, chance of success, ... +1
  

• "Minigames"
  Another possibility to create a difference between "basic" and "advanced" actions, would be minigames. Though they can and will quickly become repetitive, boring and annoying. I personally have no idea for any minigame that's at the same time immersive, realistic, fun to do and not repetitive.
  

simply unrealistic to implement.

• Player skill
  One of the first argument people give against a skill system, is that their own skill (not the characters) should determine how good they are. That's true.
  BUT. When I talk about all these "skills" that you can improve, I'm not talking about skills that are directly influenced by player skill. I'm not talking about aiming or weapon damage, or the ability to avoid zombies or other players.
  The skills I talk about are those that - currently - are just one or two mouse clicks. No amount of player skill can influence how fast your character bandages himself. But it's logical that he gets better at it, the more he does it. Yes indeed.
  

• Advanced Actions:
  Of course reading a handbook or learning from a teacher doesn't give you a sudden skill boost from 0 to Max. But your initial skill level after learning the action is rather low. I'd suggest to make it XY% of the teacher's skill level or - if learned from a book - a fixed skill level, but still lower than the starting level for basic skills.
  

mad skillz, brah.

http://www.reddit.co...oll_and/ca80ndj

All in all the advanced skills seem to be a tick too gamey for me. i would say yes but this is dayz so i hav my doubts...

Edited June 19, 2013 by joe_mcentire

[dutch_miller 159]

I agree with your argument that the player's life is not valued enough in the game, but I don't think it will reduce the core issues of the game; the players. Banditry is seemingly the only option for 90% of the players, not because they all want to the game to be a FPS, but because they are afraid of dying as it is. Increasing the value of their character's life will only increase their fear of death. They will meet all encounters with other players as violent because they come to the conclusion that the name of the game is kill or be killed. I'm all for increasing the value of a character's life, but not at the cost of the leveling system, even though this is the best leveling system idea I've seen to date.

What I think will fix this problem is incentives to work together with other survivors and to have a collective goal be established. The reason high level banditry (AS50 snipers for instance) are simply because the game is easy to survive on your own, so there is no incentive to work together with strangers; and boredom. There is no end-game, which I agree with, but there needs to be a long-term goal that can be server specific. For many people, their goal from day one is to get high level gear, and once they have it, there is nothing else to do - so they turn to banditry.

Long term goals could be any number of things. It could be the development of a cure, repairing facilities like power plants, or even some inspiration from mods like Origins where there is a location only reachable with advanced gear. It could be one of these things, or it could be all of them combined. What it is doesn't really matter, the idea that there is a goal for every player on the server to help with should help solve the bandit problem.