Skill System in DayZ?

[Wep0n 532]

If knives being rare and used up quickly, is a drawback to the skinning of animals "skill".

and there is the problem: if you find knives, you will use them to skin animals, not for the skin, but for the skill.

and the appeal of getting a knife should not be in the fact of enhancing one's own skill, but to skin an animal.

materials should NEVER be a drawback, because you give the materals an artificial worth, which is not in the sole function of the item itself (eg skinning animals), but additionaly some skill you gain.

to the medical idea, which i find pretty good:

risking your own life in a reasonable manner, where the potential loss of your character is balanced by a very tiny boost in being able to quicker bandage yourself i find acceptable.

noone wants to be bitten by a zombie, this can mean the ultimate death. even if you got enough medical support, the drawback of loosing the character by being infected should be alot bigger than the advantage of being able to bandage yourself a bit quicker.

Aslong as the drawback is bigger than the advantage i totally accept it.

if a person went trough a shitload of trouble, got bitten by tons of zombies, got shot multiple times, and even managed to survive that with a 1% chanche, well then he should be rewarded for doing so.

the reward should be minimal, and in my own opinion a "scar" which prooves your survivability is already more than enough of a reward.

and if there should be a reward which changes gameplay (bandaging quicker) then it should be really small, and not able to grind so quickly.

you would have your character to live very long, and go trough alot of trouble which will most likely kill him. only the lucky ones get a small boost, and there should be no interest in going trough trouble risking your life just for a tiny boost.

the boost should rather reward people who were extremly lucky, but not motivate them for stupid actions. (which is difficult to balance, but maby possible)

Edited January 23, 2013 by Wep0n

[GodOfGrain 191]

Ok, if we put all of this together I might have a good idea.

Perhaps a very simple approach would work best.

If we put most of those skills we have talked about into one category, "general skills"

(A) Stamina, Strength, Dexterity and (B ) lighting a fire, gutting animals, etc.

All skills in this category raise at a certain rate, depending soley on "time played".

This is fine with the sentence: "The motive of something has to be the effect your action causes, and not a skill you gain"

No griefing possible. There is a certain incentive to hide your character, but hey... if someone wants to...

some people do this today and are proud of their 140 days lived.

WIth this reduction in complexity we have the desired incentive to stay alive

without any distortion of the gameplay / game experience.

On the other hand, if this system is in place we still have the advantage of combining it

with other mechanics. For instance skills in category "general skills" - subgroup "A"

(stamina, strength, dexterity) could be used to simulate the effect of gunshot wounds (permenant reduction)

or illness (temporary reduction).

So an experienced character would always have higher points in e.g. "gutting animal".

But he may have lower stats in "A" due to gun shot wounds. As "dexterity" is influencing other skills

like "gutting animals" he could be even worse in this task than a fresh starter.

Example, your character is alive for 30 hours and has all values raised from 50 to 60.

He receives several gunshot wounds; his skills in group A are reduced to 40 - 38 - 49.

We can make it that points below 50 generate faster than in higher regions.

So your character may be effected by this fight for like 5-10 hours ingame until he reaches about 50 again.

2nd category

I would like to add another category of skills to keep some more complexity in the system,

consisting of the two skills "medical" and "technical".

That would allow for some characters to build up a distinct strength in these areas,

which would be good to add another interesting layer to teamplay.

These two skills could raise by actually doing medical / technical stuff.

Of course we have to think of grinding and how this system affects the game experience.

Regarding a medical skill, we already have the solution:

Every injury is equal to the possibility to gain an infection, so grinding is completly out of question.

Some treatments, e.g. bloodbags, could have an additional chance to transfer deseases.

Regarding the technical skill, I am a bit in the dark.

I'd like to have it as a seperate skill to have two important areas where people

could be specialized, and offer their skills to mates or strangers.

But I can't think of a way of preventing grinding in this area. I hope you can help me out here.

Overall:

It is a reduction in complexity, but it still addresses the goal to 100% (increasing identification with character).

Reduction in complexity also means that it is easier to program and less traffic for the server.

We still have a powerful instrument to link with other mechanics (deseases, gunshot wounds)

A medical skill couldl definitly be implemented, as grinding is out of question if you risk death for low reward.

And perhaps we find a good solution for a technical skill.

Edited January 23, 2013 by GodOfGrain

[Wep0n 532]

@GodOfGrain: generally making skills to direct a player's decisions doesn't work as we've seen so far, because gaining a skill should not be a motivation for an action, and rather happen due to certain random key events connected to heavy trade-off. such as immunities, and the medical system you mentioned.

but, as you already said, it defenitely can be a good tool to increase identification with a character if done properly, and this should be the goal.

now to your first part:

increasing the skills by staying alive is kinda wrong.

peope will idle... alot... they will be forced to keep their character on the screen as long as possible, and this may lead to people putting their character in a hidden place with tons of beans, going afk and feeding them every now and then. this defenitely should not happen. any form of gaining skills whitout a heavy drawback, is bad. although visual alteration of the character trough time will alrready be a very good mechanic to increase identification with the character and motivating survival in a not gameplay relevant fashion.

to your second part:

for the technical skill i really have no idea aswell...

i mean the drawback for medical stuff/resistances makes sense, because you have to survive alot of trouble and be lucky until you can profit from a skill (kinda reminds me of xcom)

but the technical skill just doesn't seem to be bound to a trade-off at all. i really think that the technical part should actually solely depend on the tools you have and your knowledge of repairing cars.

Edited January 23, 2013 by Wep0n

[GodOfGrain 191]

[...]

now to your first part:

increasing the skills by staying alive is kinda wrong.

peope will idle... alot... they will be forced to keep their character on the screen as long as possible, and this may lead to people putting their character in a hidden place with tons of beans, going afk and feeding them every now and then. this defenitely should not happen. any form of gaining skills whitout a heavy drawback, is bad. although visual alteration of the character trough time will alrready be a very good mechanic to increase identification with the character and motivating survival in a not gameplay relevant fashion.

Hmm I hear ya but I would give this thought ("progression over time played") a chance.

Lets see, first of all we got rid of any influence on player behavior regarding training / grinding skills.

The system rewards "time alive". That's very basic and actually according to the general aim of DayZ, which is surviving.

It is further a dynamic instrument which allows to simulate negative effects and a recovering period quite nicely.

Now you say: There is no drawback in "staying alive" for the sake of gaining exp.

It would be an incentive for players to hide their character.

- I think there is a drawback. Beside the fact that survival should be difficult, ergo the game should not allow players

to sit around endlessly, there is a significant drawback in this behavior:

It is fucking boring. In my first months of DayZ I was very motivated to stay alive.

And the best course of action - which is obvious, even for a newb - is to do nothing, to hide at Pobeda dam.

I never did it. Some people do, and some people do it today, for whatever reason they choose, let it be the "days-alive-counter".

What would you do? Would you even consider it? It is just so boooring.

This mechanic will contribute to the desired effect that people think twice beofre doing something risky, like shooting on someone.

But next to noone will feel compromised to adopt to a very defensive style just for this slow gain of exp.

Remember, we are talking mikro skills here, which have a distinct effect, but are in no way game deciding.

And they take a loooong time to build up. No, I don't see any negative influence on the DayZ experience.

Q

There could be one scenario where people may be contempt to stay hidden for some time:

If they had a fight, got wounded, received permenant reduction of their skills. They experience that

their character runs slower, can't carry that much weight anymore.

(As stated before, losses below 50 (standard) have a much stronger effect than gains above 50.)

Hm, but I am fine with that. People often announced their wish that players should suffer long-term effects of

gunshot wounds. With this system some time has to pass until they are healthy again.

As I said before, the system should be set in a way that these loses below 50 points are

regained relatively quickly, perhaps in the course of one play session of 3h.

to your second part:

for the technical skill i really have no idea aswell...

i mean the drawback for medical stuff/resistances makes sense, because you have to survive alot of trouble and be lucky until you can profit from a skill (kinda reminds me of xcom)

but the technical skill just doesn't seem to be bound to a trade-off at all. i really think that the technical part should actually solely depend on the tools you have and your knowledge of repairing cars.

Show us your creativity! We can find something :)

Edited January 23, 2013 by GodOfGrain

[joe_mcentire 2074]

i don't know where the thing about sitting around came from? Why should this do anything?! Oh yeah grinding in meditation i guess :D!

Ok on a very basic level, was my Gedankenexperiment earlier really that bad? (and i mean it, point out some possible flaws to me :)) By doing something you already know, you won't learn anything. So when you "sit" in your corner and read your book over and over again you would gain not more than +1 eloquenz - point. There would be little allure to grind because of the possibility to learn far more by interacting with other ppl or groups, as i explained in my Gedankenexperiment. Hence there would be again more potential in social activities.

Dayz, and especially when i look further to the SA where they want far more ppl on a server, and the already "going to be" boosted number of infected, i don't really think there is much potential in beeing idle or do things repetitively for grinding's sake. There is far more to do and to see and most of all... far more to fear! I bet my juicy ass that you'll consequently be (forcefully) disrupted whilest diverse activities so you eventually forget about the learning and training things, as there is more idle time you'll eventually think about it again.

I arbitrarily throw something in. How about an additional process.

Introducing: The Chance of "extensive failure", which means there is a small possibility to learn/train certain things the wrong way... so they throw you back a little. as more experienced you get the lower this chance gets. Meaning heavily fuck up an engine leaving the vehicle unfixable behind. Or in hunting cutting the gall and soil all of your meat... although we were talking about something like that in the beginning i guess.

Edited January 23, 2013 by joe_mcentire

[GodOfGrain 191]

Drawback to "training repair skills":

- High weight / size of repair parts prevents people of carrying

repair parts with them just for the sake of using them should they find a vehicle.

- Time effort: To finish a repair action takes between 5 mins (tire) to 10 mins (engine).

Exp only granted if action is completly finished

- Risk: During this action a soundfile is played (*repair sounds*) which can be heared by other players over some distance.

- Risk #2: (Very small) chance of hurting yourself during during a repair.

[GodOfGrain 191]

Ok on a very basic level, was my Gedankenexperiment earlier really that bad? (and i mean it, point out some possible flaws to me :)

[...]

I have re-read your "Gedankenexperiment" and it is actually a great thought.

Right now you have this display in DayZ which tells you:

Engine orange, hull red etc.

The concept could be:

- You see tires are destroyed? Obvious...

- Hull look badly damaged? As well

- But what about the engine? If the game would never tell you which state the engine

has, you'd have a closer look.

Very simple, you just approach the car and press "Investigate engine".

Animation and stuff, you have to wait a minute, then the result is displayed:

- "I need x scrap metal to fix that" / "I need enginge parts to fix that"

or: "I maybe able to fix that"

-> New option available: Try to fix engine.

That might be successfull after some time, or:

"That doesn't work. I need X to fix that".

In this scenario you'd get exp in step 1 for investigating,

and in step 2 for trying to fix it without any items.

Now lets think what that means:

Yes, you are fixing a car, gain exp and this without drawback.

BUT! Whenever I saw a car in DayZ I always had a look.

Cars are great. If you see a car and have the random chance that you'll

get it working right here and now, you would try. You have a real motivation for this action.

You gain exp as well... but the real motivation comes from the real world, not a skill you grind.

Good idea Mcentire :)

Edited January 23, 2013 by GodOfGrain

[joe_mcentire 2074]

from here: [DayZGame] ShannonZKiller - Jan 2013 - Interview/Livestream with Rocket

Q: Do you think we will see any kind of leveling for your character?

A: We feel pretty strongly (definitely I do) that the levelling you do in DayZ is your gear, perhaps the different thing about DayZ is that.. I think Zero Punctuation put it very well when he said the great equalizer in DayZ is you can suddenly turn around and kill someone and take all their gear if you are lucky or skilled and it's not that you have won because you are a higher level. So I don't think we are ever going to have any type of levelling, we are always going to have this focus on the gear being your levelling and I think that's a really cool direction to go. I really want to see us develop more of the character side of it, that is our focus for the next few months, reinforcing the sense of character and beyond that we will look towards end-game content like customizable vehicles towards the middle of the year, stealing another cars bonet because you need a new one or want a different colour etc. At the moment the vehicle system will do exactly like it does in the mod just better performance but later on towards the middle of the year will be heavily customizable and then towards the end of the year providing the game has been successful we can start doing huge things like underground instanced construction.

so that's it then...leveling through gear...

[GodOfGrain 191]

yea heard this interview as well.

Progression by equipment will probably not work...

Let see... if I am in the mood I'll include all the stuff we discussed to page 1.

That's all we can do :) I think we nearly solved every issue which came across...

[Wep0n 532]

well i am kinda fine with rockets viewpoint, but i agree that only gear can make the game dull as soon as you have a group with a shitload of gear.

so there should be limits in gear rarity, maintenance, and difficulty to retreive gear from dead bodies due to infection risk.

but also things which do not depend on gear, cosmetic stuff for example, such as a permanent scar, or growing beard can make the game alot more awesome, this is a way the character can progress trough surviving whitout gameplaychanges.

the "skill" idea is just too difficult to balance in a way that it doesnt affect gameplay in a negative way, and there is currently better stuff to focus on which can enhanche the experience.

Edited January 26, 2013 by Wep0n

[thesodesa 99]

This is a good idea, but only if the skill/attribute values are made COMPLETELY invisible and inaccessible to the players. You should not be able to view them in a menu, not even on an external website. You should not get any messages saying "DING! Dexterity +1!" They should manifest themselves very subtly, like when you and your buddies are travelling on foot, and you realize that they are a bit faster and can run longer than you because they have survived longer.

I say this because I do not want the game to make me feel like I have to grind my skills and attributes, which I undoubtedly will if these numbers are shown to me (It has always happened in other games where the values are visible somewhere).

Edited March 11, 2013 by TheSodesa

[GodOfGrain 191]

exactly, that's the idea.

we need to talk about numbers working in the background,

e.g. a character with a lot of training in medical skills has like a 2% chance to inflict an infection when giving a transfusion

compared to 6% for a freshspawn.

But this information should never be visible to a player.

But plz use this thread for further discussion:

http://dayzmod.com/forum/index.php?/topic/120173-on-game-design-progression-through-equipment-and-a-system-of-micro-skills/

Edited March 13, 2013 by GodOfGrain

[joe_mcentire 2074]

But plz use this thread for further discussion:

http://dayzmod.com/f...z/page__st__180

i'm sure you meant this one: http://dayzmod.com/forum/index.php?/topic/120173-on-game-design-progression-through-equipment-and-a-system-of-micro-skills/

[GodOfGrain 191]

thanks, corrected

[liquidmind 320]

GEAR IS ALL THERE IS

i think that's important to remember.

I think there should be sets of Items for repairing, medical and building. The more parts you have, the more likely and the faster the process can go. But you need to collect it over time.

But that's the closest to "leveling" skills I'd go.

[enjsalo 1]

Most people against this idea hasn't really understood what he is suggesting. This is a good suggestion. We're striving toward realism here right, of course there must be a variation of how good a person is in handeling blood transfusions. My guess is that half of you in this forum has no idea how to preform a blood transfusion. But after a few of them you get better in preforming them, so why would that be a bad suggestion? I think realism we're after...

This is no crap cod or wow or anything, this is just a value that shows how experianced you are in doing certain actions in game that normally require some experiance.

[joe_mcentire 2074]

exactly, that's the idea.

we need to talk about numbers working in the background,

e.g. a character with a lot of training in medical skills has like a 2% chance to inflict an infection when giving a transfusion

compared to 6% for a freshspawn.

But this information should never be visible to a player.

But plz use this thread for further discussion:

http://dayzmod.com/f...f-micro-skills/

listen to this guy...if you have read this whole thread, then you also HAVE TO read its successor

[Duckhard 0]

 

Please put this in DayZ as stalker doing online, with missions, economy system, party system, NPC, skills and craft.
Note: because I'm bored of killing zeds or other players having all the weapons and know where all the sites loting,no longer makes sense, so I stop playing, sorry :)