Epinephrine to slow blood loss?

[fathairybeast 246]

It's been a while since I did any EMT type courses but if I remember right Epinephrine constricts blood flow thus reducing blood loss. If I'm not smoking crack and that is true would it be possible to give Epi-Pens the ability to reduce blood loss?

Also, potentially medic tents/outposts that can be built/found in game to aid with TMW type shit?

[sneekygreenman 196]

Indeed, If you were bleeding, and used an Epi-pen, the bleeding would slow. By how much, im not altogether sure, but it would slow. However, it could possibly run the risk of putting yourself into a hypo induced seizure, or even a coma, though, im not sure.

A solid suggestion and one I hope the dev team looks into, perhaps, adding chocolate or some other high sugar food, so you could balance off the hypo if it did occur. :beans:

[mzltv 2281]

Is epinephrine something as standard, like a bandage or anti-biotics, that you're able to find in real life?

I've never heard of it - just not sure if it's something you'd find, whilst raiding a box in a hospital lobby, in real life...

[boneboys 7988]

I thought that in case of heart attacks epinephrine was used to incease blood flow, this implies faster loss of blood let.

[Bludy 324]

it helps blood flow through the heart, raises the pressure and constricts peripheral blood vessels. it's useful when you have lost a lot of blood, but when you havean emorrhage you must rehintegrate fluids and stop the bleeding via mechanic intervention, it's useless to slow the blood loss if you don't stop it completely.

it would have more sense to make a plasma transfusion(this is the actual system to treat blood loss in combat, soliders have a vein catheter to quickly apply plasma) so this would be a good idea also ingame to me, with the effect of raising your blood level without making the black and white screen and shaking disappear and stopping for a while the passing out.so maybe a plasma tranfusion would raise your blood we say about plus 3000-4000 and then an adjustment to plus 2000.

adrenaline in emt is for when you are already passed out with serious cardiac alterations and pressure fall the treatment consists of 1-2mg every 4 minutes so a single injection won't have so much effect..

then is for the treatment of anaphylactic shock, making it a standard loot in every pharmacy

sorry for the english but it's a difficult topic!

Edited December 5, 2012 by Bludy

[mr_chabowski@live.co.uk 2416]

^^ Nice explanation Bludy :beans:

AFAIK most non-medical people who would be familiar with Epi-pens are those who are (or know someone who is) allergic to bee stings etc.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that epinephrine would increase your heart-rate, causing you to bleed-out faster.

Edited December 5, 2012 by Chabowski

[DiazWaffleCrabstro 39]

I love you people who figure DUH! lets use an artificial adrenaline WHICH increases my blood pressure and heartbeat to slow down my blood loss.... thats ugh counter productive, stupid idea off the bat as far as realism or logic goes, i would understand a suggestion for adding a different pen which you inject to the wound to add coagulants such as fibrin or platalet but using an epi pen when you got a gashing wound is like a suicide, if you dont pass out from the increased bloodloss, your heart (in most cases) would run itself to death. IT does not have a warning for nothing that says "do not use on a healthy person, use only in case of anaphlyctic shock or resuscitation attempt"

Edited December 5, 2012 by DiazWaffleCrabstro

[fathairybeast 246]

I love you people who figure DUH! lets use an artificial adrenaline WHICH increases my blood pressure and heartbeat to slow down my blood loss.... thats ugh counter productive, stupid idea off the bat as far as realism or logic goes, i would understand a suggestion for adding a different pen which you inject to the wound to add coagulants such as fibrin or platalet but using an epi pen when you got a gashing wound is like a suicide, if you dont pass out from the increased bloodloss, your heart (in most cases) would run itself to death. IT does not have a warning for nothing that says "do not use on a healthy person, use only in case of anaphlyctic shock or resuscitation attempt"

In medicine epinephrine is used chiefly as a stimulant in cardiac arrest, as a vasoconstrictor in shock, and as a bronchodilator and antispasmodic in bronchial asthma.

Okay there were some misconceptions about the post. Yes, epi-pens are primarily used for allergic reactions. As far as we know there aren't going to be any of those in the standalone. So concerning that branch of thought: problem solved. But you are, however, correct concerning real life situations.

As for the individual I quoted - Read the following quote from the University of Delaware. Take note of the word "vasoconstrictor".

My thought in using the epi-pen to reduce blood loss is from I remember and what research tells me - yes it is in fact physiologically accurate (how useful it would be in real life I do not know, but the fact remains that epinephrine, in traumatic situations, is a vasoconstrictor).

TL;DR - It would be neat if, in the standalone, when shot and bleeding out badly (if you don't have a bandage) you could use the epi-pen to reduce blood loss enough to aid in finding a bandage before bleeding out.

Edited December 6, 2012 by fathairybeast

[fathairybeast 246]

Is epinephrine something as standard, like a bandage or anti-biotics, that you're able to find in real life?

I've never heard of it - just not sure if it's something you'd find, whilst raiding a box in a hospital lobby, in real life...

Epi-Pens are usually prescribed and carried (at least in the states) by people who have known severe allergic reactions. But since there aren't any allergic reactions in the game I was thinking of ancillary uses for the item that are realistic.

[Bludy 324]

it's not proven that a transfusion of platalets would stop an emorrhage, there is a study by mount sinai institute or whatever about major traumas but it's not sure..they always use platalets with plasma..fibrin is in shape of glue nowadays but that would start the coagulation even if the wound is really big.

i'd post this that i found useful in my studies

http://www.trauma.org/archive/resus/massive.html

[Roshi (DayZ) 397]

I thought that in case of heart attacks epinephrine was used to incease blood flow, this implies faster loss of blood let.

As far as I know it's used more for shock in an ICU environment (closer supervision) as it increases cardiac output. In cardiac ischaemia (in angina or cardiac arrest) it can worsen the situation by increasing cardiac work and therefore oxygen demand - leading to more damage...

Edited December 6, 2012 by Roshi

[Roshi (DayZ) 397]

I love you people who figure DUH! lets use an artificial adrenaline WHICH increases my blood pressure and heartbeat to slow down my blood loss.... thats ugh counter productive, stupid idea off the bat as far as realism or logic goes, i would understand a suggestion for adding a different pen which you inject to the wound to add coagulants such as fibrin or platalet but using an epi pen when you got a gashing wound is like a suicide, if you dont pass out from the increased bloodloss, your heart (in most cases) would run itself to death. IT does not have a warning for nothing that says "do not use on a healthy person, use only in case of anaphlyctic shock or resuscitation attempt"

Increased blood pressure in part due to vasoconstriction - (acting through alpha-adrenergic receptors in vessels) - i.e. increased total peripheral resistance by closing down peripheral blood vessels, as well as by increased cardiac output (increased heart rate and contractility).

[Roshi (DayZ) 397]

it's not proven that a transfusion of platalets would stop an emorrhage, there is a study by mount sinai institute or whatever about major traumas but it's not sure..they always use platalets with plasma..fibrin is in shape of glue nowadays but that would start the coagulation even if the wound is really big.

i'd post this that i found useful in my studies

http://www.trauma.or...us/massive.html

Transfuse platelets in platelet deficiency (thrombocytopenia) or dysfunction (e.g. use of clopidogrel or alkylation by aspirin).

Edited December 6, 2012 by Roshi

[DiazWaffleCrabstro 39]

I am still thinking in an open wound situation, talking about main veins, it would worsen the situation in more than one way.

[Very Ape 748]

I do love the idea of something that could be quickly applied to reduce blood loss, without bandaging.

Let's face it, bandaging a gunshot wound in this game seems to be really quick. :P It'd be nice if that could take longer, but to balance it out have something that could be applied quickly (but only useful temporarily, as in, you can't go around for hours after like a bandage allows you to do)

[aksuduud 64]

I asked my brother who is a medic, he said that it would not work and would propably result in internal bleeding due to increased blood pressure.

(feel free to criticise the credibility)

[mr_chabowski@live.co.uk 2416]

I do love the idea of something that could be quickly applied to reduce blood loss, without bandaging.

Let's face it, bandaging a gunshot wound in this game seems to be really quick. :P It'd be nice if that could take longer, but to balance it out have something that could be applied quickly (but only useful temporarily, as in, you can't go around for hours after like a bandage allows you to do)

I think it would be good if you could temporarily forfeit your weapon for the ability to apply pressure to a wound.

I imagine it slowing down the bleeding, but all you can do is try and get out of the danger-zone.

It seems like a fairly reasonable compromise.

[fathairybeast 246]

There seems to be a lot of wild conjecture and "my daddy's friend says it can't happen" going on. So I'm going to throw these out there:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8736371

http://www.renalandurologynews.com/epinephrine-can-cut-turp-related-blood-loss/article/219010/#

http://www.medbc.com/annals/review/vol_8/num_3/text/vol8n3p146.htm

So, what this tells me is that epinephrine will not increase blood loss. Worst case: It doesn't reduce blood loss.

The issue is partly, I think, that many of us are assuming the epi-pen would be delivered via the bloodstream. There are three ways you could conceivably apply an epi-pen (intravenously, intramuscularly, subdermally). Those articles tell me it would be most effect subdermally or perhaps intramuscularly but NOT intravenously (which would, presumably, cause the greatest effect on your heart rate.

Not sure if this will change anything, but I figured I'd toss that in anyways.

[Roshi (DayZ) 397]

Applying pressure seems like a good option.

[DiazWaffleCrabstro 39]

EMT's are still told to use the epi pen as a last result, and weigh the benefits of it, and instead use the rise, compress, cool for medium to small cuts, gashing wounds need lots of pressure and coagulants or something else to make the blood clot faster. Still remember that much from my basic field first aid, and first aid training.

[aksuduud 64]

There seems to be a lot of wild conjecture and "my daddy's friend says it can't happen" going on. So I'm going to throw these out there:

http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/8736371

http://www.renalandu...rticle/219010/#

http://www.medbc.com.../vol8n3p146.htm

So, what this tells me is that epinephrine will not increase blood loss. Worst case: It doesn't reduce blood loss.

The issue is partly, I think, that many of us are assuming the epi-pen would be delivered via the bloodstream. There are three ways you could conceivably apply an epi-pen (intravenously, intramuscularly, subdermally). Those articles tell me it would be most effect subdermally or perhaps intramuscularly but NOT intravenously (which would, presumably, cause the greatest effect on your heart rate.

Not sure if this will change anything, but I figured I'd toss that in anyways.

Two of those articles are about burns and one is about transurethal resection of the prostate, most wounds in dayz are combat traumas which are different from those.

[fathairybeast 246]

Two of those articles are about burns and one is about transurethal resection of the prostate, most wounds in dayz are combat traumas which are different from those.

prostate wounds are a big problem for me in dayz

[Sonicdahedgie 31]

Is epinephrine something as standard, like a bandage or anti-biotics, that you're able to find in real life?

I've never heard of it - just not sure if it's something you'd find, whilst raiding a box in a hospital lobby, in real life...

Most people with severe allergies will carry on on them. There's plenty around everywhere, you probably just don't realize it.

[DiazWaffleCrabstro 39]

Most people with severe allergies will carry on on them. There's plenty around everywhere, you probably just don't realize it.

in big cities yeah, but even in the western industrial countries, all you need to do is go to some small counties and farmer land areas and you suddenly realize how small of an amount of people out there really have any allergies, and seeing the size of the towns in chernaruss, i doubt too many people have allergies, seeing how they would be exposed to allergenes since childhood to develop a resistance.

[Steppwolf 97]

in big cities yeah, but even in the western industrial countries, all you need to do is go to some small counties and farmer land areas and you suddenly realize how small of an amount of people out there really have any allergies, and seeing the size of the towns in chernaruss, i doubt too many people have allergies, seeing how they would be exposed to allergenes since childhood to develop a resistance.

Hospitals defenetly have epinephrine and i'd bet if you searched an office/school building it wouldn't be too hard to find either.