Dayz as an AntiGame (wall of text warning).

[Strategos (DayZ) 190]

The ramblings of a deranged survivor.... yes it's an essay.

Ok first off. As Rockets says , “Disable your automatic butthurt”. This is just a discussion, have a think about it.

Secondly think about what makes Dayz good for you. Also think about what made it really compelling when you first started.

As an experiment try and imagine Dayz without perma death (such as it is) and imagine someone coming along and suggesting “what about if you die you lose all your stuff permanently and have to start again”. Id imagine a lot of people would say “fuck that I’ve got tonnes of good stuff and now I’m going to lose it all” etc. But as it turns out it's exactly this kind of extreme game mechanic that makes Dayz so compelling.

Now I'm not presuming to know what Rocket thinks, but he has said that this is an “Anti-Game” he has also said that Dayz is about evoking emotions. It is this that makes Dayz so good in my opinion.

So with all this in mind try not to just say “fuck that” try and think about your gaming experience a little differently for a second.....

Immersion:

A big portion of Dayz is about loneliness , uncertainty, fear. You are a survivor, ill equipped and lost . It's about survival. I think Dayz is most enjoyable when you are in this survival mode, that is when it's scariest, when you are most involved with the experience itself.

Dayz I think is in many ways at it's worst in the “end game” you have your clan mates, you are all on TS and geared up with all the equipment you need. There are two reasons for this, one is boredom, and one is frustration.

Further more, having a group of mates to chat shit to and have a laugh with is great fun. But it is also the same as every other multiplayer game. You team up with the same guys, do the same thing essentially as you do in the other games you play. Just in a different setting. Whenever I play dayz I sit on mumble and chat shit with my mates and we meet up etc and it is a lot of fun.

But I have found that this familiar comfort blanket actually detracts from the core Dayz experience in some ways. Yeah its boring running between deer-stands and not being able to pass the time talking with my mates. But THATS dayz isn't it. The boredom is in some ways as important as the stress and excitement. Because on the flip side, if i'm in the pitch black trying to sneak between a group of zombies, having my mates nattering in my ear really spoils the atmosphere.

Its NOT an anti-game, its NOT a lone survival experience, its less scary, its less stressful, all of these things when you are in a group with all your RL gaming buddies.

I also notice that noobs we introduce to the game have a much less scary time when we are helping them through it and I feel bad for them. Although those early days were hard and I died over and over, they were the most scary and enjoyable in many ways.

The Dark:

Half of the Dayz experience is night time. Its scarier, its off-putting and there is a whole different game play mechanic.

Nightime can be really stressful. Hard work. But again, this is Dayz at its best I think. There are also advantages, you are harder to see , snipers wont pick you off from 1km away as often. You can see others using light sources and have to choose when to use yours. Its really interesting and can be bloody tense.

But people don't do it. It's a bit harder so they just skip to a daytime server. They are literally missing out on half the intended experience, half the stress and uncertainty and a whole portion of game play – as well as opportunities.

Dayz shouldn’t be a case of “i don't like it ill skip that” it should be about “fuck this is hard i'm going to have to adapt to beat this”.

Direct Comms:

Global chat is gone or should be. I can only assume that Rocket wants it gone for a reason.

I can safely say that since it went one of my best ever gaming experiences out of 20 years of gaming have come from Dayz combined with direct chat. Me and my mate heard a group of three talking on direct comms nearby and using their plans and the direction of the voices hunted them and ultimately killed them. I wont go into details but it was incredibly intense. If we had all been chatting on our own separate voice comms this never would have happened we probably would have passed without ever knowing they were there.

There is a whole realm of possibility out there that only comes into its own if everyone uses voice chat. I believe that it would make the entire game better. BUT the downside of this is that as long as people are using third person voice they will always have an advantage, so like evolution those using purely direct chat will die out.

In much the same way that friendly people are currently dying out because of the evolutionary pressures in the game due to KOS and griefers.

Think about how it would feel to be able to sneak up on people and spy on what they are saying, crawl back to your mates and report what the enemy are planning then all head off to ambush them?

Or arranging to split up and search a town and meet up at a rendezvous in 30 minutes. You hear gunshots but don't know what's happened, you meet up with your team but one guys missing, then you have to go and search for him.

There are very rich game-play possibilities out there. BUT they come at the expense of some of the more familiar things you might be used to. Dayz to me is about pushing boundaries, rather than just saying fuck that! Maybe consider that there is a different kind of multi player gaming experience possible if you let go of some of those things.

People play single player games on their own, because single player games offer something multi player games cannot, more focused narrative for instance.

Isn't it possible that Dayz could offer something that other multi-player games do not, if you let it.

I think losing your guns at the start is a great example of the possibilities. Two guys without guns at the start cannot kill each other. They start to talk on direct chat. They travel together for a bit. Already something new has happened, they are talking and sharing the experience together. Perhaps when one finds a gun they might be more likely to stay together and help each other. But then again maybe not. BUT something new will have happened that is much less likely to happen as it stands right now.

Don't really expect anyone to read it, but wanted to get it off my chest :)

TLDR:

Dayz could be even more fun if you let go of your gaming preconceptions and embraced what it had to offer.

Dayz could be even more of an “anti-game”and could be better for it.

I've deliberately left suggestion out of this, wrong forum (the link below is my sig and nothing to do with this discussion)

[esaciar 1]

Succinct, considered article.

I may not agree with every principle, but you are most certainly entitled to your opinion.

[Strategos (DayZ) 190]

Thanks, its not so much about agreeing or disagreeing, more food for thought. Though id be interested to hear why you disagree.

[esaciar 1]

I think team mates wittering in your ear at the exact wrong time is perfect for a tense prone by of zeds.

[Strategos (DayZ) 190]

Really ? I cant honestly believe that :)

Maybe it distracts you and makes it harder, but it certainly doesn't add to the survival horror atmosphere of the game. And it certainly doesn't make you feel alone :)

[dph314 2]

Interesting post indeed. Only skimmed through it though. But the part about the direct-comm ambush was sweet. I do like Skype for teamwork, but it's interesting to think about having 3rd-party programs like Skype not allowed and being forced to use the in-game chat and direct-comm channel. It would make the 'immersion' a little better since you really do have to 'whisper' or not talk at all since someone might over-hear you talking. Kind of cool when you think about it. I wonder if Rocket ever considered trying to patch in some code that will disable 3rd-party communication programs. I don't even know if that's possible. But, it does sound somewhat intriguing...

[silenced (DayZ) 5]

I missed the wall of text somehow, but it was a good read anyways.

But you're right on some aspects, but it's hard to 'force' people in the way 'games are meant to be played by the developers for the ultimate experience', since this would be a rule, and everyone tends to bend rules. It's a human thing, you can't get it out of them.

[esaciar 1]

I think intermittent static interference could be a nice touch.

Explicable as the degradation of communication systems over a period of time. It would be very difficult to integrate into the programming, but it would be beautiful as a tool/device/feature.

[athrins 39]

I very much agree with OP. This mod should stay true to its Realism > Balance/Fun philosophy.

Also, I have an idea about how to solve the 3rd party voip problem; force mic to stay active at all times. This means that anyone is free to use any 3rd party program they wish for communication, but when you're talking into your mic, you are also talking in Direct Comm in-game. If you don't want to be heard at all you can just turn off your mic altogether and your integrity is fully preserved. Combine this solution with relatively commonly found radios and other comm tools (phones?) in-game and the game enters a whole new level of realism.

[Strategos (DayZ) 190]

"But you're right on some aspects, but it's hard to 'force' people in the way 'games are meant to be played by the developers for the ultimate experience', since this would be a rule, and everyone tends to bend rules. It's a human thing, you can't get it out of them."

I agree , it's one of the reasons I've avoided suggestions and solutions. Im not trying to say the game SHOULD be this way. Or you HAVE to do this.

I'm just trying to get some thinking going about what makes Dayz good, and possibly what could make it even better.

I think it's interesting that the things that people like about dayz are things they would HATE in any other game. Yet people refuse to think about changing certain other aspects of the game.

It took Rocket making a bunch of extreme rules for people to try it and see that they liked it. Is it such a leap that maybe some other unpalatable sounding mechanics might in the end be even more enjoyable ?

[dph314 2]

Also' date=' I have an idea about how to solve the 3rd party voip problem; force mic to stay active at all times. This means that anyone is free to use any 3rd party program they wish for communication, but when you're talking into your mic, you are also talking in Direct Comm in-game. If you don't want to be heard at all you can just turn off your mic altogether and your integrity is fully preserved. Combine this solution with relatively commonly found radios and other comm tools (phones?) in-game and the game enters a whole new level of realism.

[/quote']

I kind of like this idea.

[kuramabingyi 0]

I believe in the principle that everyone should start with just food and water, and any basic supplies necessary for survival such as road flares and a hunting knife. You're washed up on the shore of an unknown land - how is it likely that you just happened to have a sidearm on you when you get up onto your feet? It's more likely that you'd have a hunting knife on you than a pistol if you were any other normal person.

I can guarantee that this method will make it that much more tense. Folks will work together in order to scavenge for supplies up until the moment someone discovers a weapon - and then, from there, all hell would break loose. They could either gun down the people they've traveled with or continue on until a better, more opportune moment arises like when the other folks in the party would have a better weapon you could pick off of them.

Starting with a weapon - even a weak one - just seems unlikely in the case of this kind of scenario.

[oktyabr 53]

Thoughtful, well written post!

I'm not really against second party voice comm, I'm just (like the OP) very aware of the cost of metagaming functions like clans, forums and VOIP has in regards to experiencing the real depth of this game.

So much more immersion comes about when playing the character you are given, a lone survivor that will likely be lucky to survive more than a day or two. Team up with a bunch of mates and a layer of that immersion is peeled away like a layer of an onion. The mod becomes much more casual and relaxed feeling and in return looses much of the tension and anxiety that players feel without such luxuries. And yet many suggestions are made about making the game harder or more "real", and at least some of those suggestions come from players that have given up that layer of immersion without a second thought!

---

I very much agree with OP. This mod should stay true to its Realism > Balance/Fun philosophy.

Also' date=' I have an idea about how to solve the 3rd party voip problem; force mic to stay active at all times. This means that anyone is free to use any 3rd party program they wish for communication, but when you're talking into your mic, you are also talking in Direct Comm in-game. If you don't want to be heard at all you can just turn off your mic altogether and your integrity is fully preserved. Combine this solution with relatively commonly found radios and other comm tools (phones?) in-game and the game enters a whole new level of realism.

[/quote']

This is actually a very good idea and might be the only one that stands a chance of really working.

Sure, it's possible to set up a process monitor that works much like an anti-cheat, detecting when apps like TS, Mumble, etc. are loaded and running, but there will always be ways around this from modifying apps to change the process profile, using an Xbox or cell phone or even a second computer (with it's own mic) as the communication device. Simply monitoring the sound input "recording device" in Windows would be an elegant solution for most people.

Others will want to play a type of DayZ that let's them casually team up with their clan mates and loot airfields and stuff. Maybe the above suggestion could be used as a sort of feature for "hardcore" servers, for those that really want to experience all that DayZ can offer?

In another thread I suggested having players spawn on a *random* server (within a ping range so not to be network laggy) and not telling them which one it was. This too would have an impact and again might work for a "hardcore" setting. Players could still use TS/whatever but what good is it if you aren't even sure you and your clanmates are spawning on the same server?

[mikyjax 3]

everybody speaking on the server could create a lot of bandwith use.. so I don't think this is possible. But a solution should be find to counter that.

Problem is for now, the direct chat is very bad quality. I usually speak french, I can talk and understand people on skype/ts but in the game it s too hard to understand what people say.

The best alternative is something like acre, that could permit to use radio and the 3d spatialization sound, but I read acre couldn't be compatible with dayz so they have to create something like that :(

Until an "acre-like" is not built in game, people will use 3rd application to communicate wich I agree is very sad.

I m fully with the OP on everything he said ;)

[Strategos (DayZ) 190]

There are lots of problems and lots of potential solutions :)

With regards to the "hardcore server" options this is sort of my point. I don't think this is the right path. I think the game should be the game. If you give people choices many will always take the line of least resistance.

I have friends that sit with us on mumble but will ONLY play on day time servers. So they accept 100+ pings on a different server to their other mates rather than play at night.

Maybe if the game made people leave their safety blankets behind and everyone had to play by the same rules the game might be better for it, for everyone.

And people really need to think about it rather than just having a knee jerk , "fuck you don't tell me what to do" reaction.

[Indio (DayZ) 0]

Its only Alpha! When Dayz release 100% complete. will be the best game! =)

[Strategos (DayZ) 190]

Well said Indio ;)

Now is the time for discussion, Thinking and Trying new ideas.

[Lukio (DayZ) 24]

I am generally with the OP. Just two things are disturbing me:

1) Day/Nighttime conundrum. Yes night is a very different factor in the game and makes it much scarier, but ONLY being able to experience the game at night isn't that great either, so i can understand people hopping on time-shift servers to enjoy some virtual rays of light. Its not always "breaking (non-existant) rules".

2) The best thing about this mod is that it has no defined end game, the only endgame that remains is player interaction. Maybe the endgame needs more functionality or structure, but there shouldn't be any new content or goals to achieve. Players are smart and will figure out for themselves what they want to make of it.

[Virfortis 111]

I'm going to have to respectfully agree AND disagree (because just agreeing is boring).

I agree wholeheartedly that 3rd party VOIP and the like are making the game too easy, but maybe I was on a bad server or something because Direct Comm was barely working for me, even with the beta patch. I didn't hear someone until I was right on top of them, and of course they spray me down the second I was there. I wasn't able to lean my head up to the door and tell them I was just trying to get around the firestation.

Second, I don't agree with nighttime. While having things pretty dark is the whole point of it, making it a constant pitch black even with flares out is game breaking. Immersion only works when a game meets us half way, and DayZ's nighttime doesn't. It is designed only for those that play NVGs. Nighttime used to be much more popular, and I used to play it with the brightness and gamma turned slightly up, just enough to see silhouettes like a decent night, but now you might as well be playing blindfolded. The reason this is, is because in reality you would have a basic idea of where you are, or at least what surface you were walking on, but in DayZ you only have sight and sound, not the 5 senses we use now, so we either have to make up for that with better sight or we lose immersion. Playing blind means you are literally playing a game of marco-polo, unless you have the all coveted NVGs. Flares only work a grand total of squat with the recent patch. I throw one and I still can't see where I'm going because of it.

So yes, you're definitely right about how we have to give up the concept of DayZ being a simple game to enjoy it. I think, personally, DayZ needs to adopt a little disclaimer the first time you load into a server:

DayZ is not meant to be played to win. Instead, focus on immersing yourself in the world by being just in the world. Do not focus on kills, this is not a competition, it is simply survival.

And then yeah, force open direct comm at all times...make nighttime reasonable...and for Jimmy's sake increase Direct Comm enough that I can hear when people are trying to talk to me.

[Strategos (DayZ) 190]

"1) Day/Nighttime conundrum. Yes night is a very different factor in the game and makes it much scarier, but ONLY being able to experience the game at night isn't that great either, so i can understand people hopping on time-shift servers to enjoy some virtual rays of light. Its not always "breaking (non-existant) rules".

I never said you should only play at night . I would suggest something like ... perhaps people could choose their time and be locked to servers that roughly match that time. So they could pick the time they mainly play to be their preferable time of day. But I was trying to steer clear of suggestions in this thread its too easy to get bogged down in the details of specific suggestions.

"2) The best thing about this mod is that it has no defined end game, the only endgame that remains is player interaction. Maybe the endgame needs more functionality or structure, but there shouldn't be any new content or goals to achieve. Players are smart and will figure out for themselves what they want to make of it."

I also never mentioned anything about changing the end game, I was just highlighting that the end game is the worst part in some ways. The best part is the journey there, the act of just surviving.

What i'm really talking about is the whole approach people have to the game. And trying to get them to open their minds a bit to the possibilities, and think about the reasons the game is so exciting.

edit: And yeah

Virfortis its hard to keep track of the night-time darkness, i just logged in with newest beta and it was complete black except fo the sky, but with a chem light i still managed to loot a crashed heli and avoid all the zs without drawing agro... Im not so much fussed about how dark it is, more that everyone is be experiencing the same thing and that everyone at least plays a bit at night. But again its not the details more the concepts.

[Lukio (DayZ) 24]

I also never mentioned anything about changing the end game' date=' I was just highlighting that the end game is the worst part in some ways. The best part is the journey there, the act of just surviving.

What i'm really talking about is the whole approach people have to the game. And trying to get them to open their minds a bit to the possibilities, and think about the reasons the game is so exciting.

[/quote']

Can you explain the "some ways" worst part? Personally I think its the best part because currently each player or group of players can make out of it whatever they want. Sure, some of them get bored, but from reading the forums and seeing what is going on on some servers, I think its very interesting and in the end every server may offer a different type or style of endgame.

[Strategos (DayZ) 190]

Well there's a few reasons that I can see.

1: The game is harsh. But it only becomes frustrating when you have reached "endgame" stage and are trying to achieve something.

2: Some people seem to need end game goals, and when they get there surviving in itself is no longer a challenge. If you wanted to you could sit in the wilderness and live off the land and never see a zombie.

3: The end game is the least scary part of the game in alot of ways. You are tooled up, got a bunch of mates. All chatting on TS, it is less Dayz at this stage.

4: You are no longer AS mortal. When you die you mates grab your stuff, drive or fly to pick you up, you can be back exactly where you were , same gear , same mates etc within 10 minutes. This does not sound like perma death to me. You might as well have not died at all. So dying is not something you fear as much, again , not very Dayz.

5: You stick with your mates and just kill everyone you see. People have nothing to offer you but threat as you have all the stuff you want. And they probably would like to get it off you. So interaction is even less of a driving force.

Don't get me wrong i'm sure some people do some really interesting things in end game. But people with the imagination and creativity to do that aren't the sort of people that will reject radical game play mechanics they are probably the people that would embrace them.

There is a bit of a dichotomy in the game design at this point, if you are making a game where you want people to team up and build forts and safe zones why have perma death ? Because those people will just come right back and carry on where they left off, all perma death does in this scenario is frustrate people. in fact its no even perma death as they prercieve their character as continuing where it left off as well.

[Swi1ch 39]

Pretty much agree, see Fridge Logic in sig.