Xbow

You said, "I really don't get what you think is so hard about killing someone. IF you get the drop on them it's easy nobody can defend against a knife piercing in to their neck or head from an attacker they didn't know was right behind them. And it's only IF." First off I don't think its hard to kill someone in this game in fact I think its easy. I have dispatched a good number of clueless ones with melee weapons but I also don't like the fact that it may take five hits with a machete and a couple of hits in the head with an axe to incapacitate or KO your target even if you deliver the opener from behind on an unaware target. It comes down to the targets and the attackers relative positions. And for that something simple like points of position could be used to add or subtract the amount of damage a melee weapon can inflict on the target. If you attacking a target from behind yes you should get a reward of more damage delivered to the target. •Standing attacker Prone Target From Behind....... .How about 6x damage •Standing attacker Kneeling target From Behind.....How about 4x damage •Standing attacker Standing Target from Behind.....How about 3x damage But it must be remembered that the game is in ALPHA and the melee system is in a word terrible especially with respect to accuracy as the reticle on the screen does not accurately reflect where the blow will land. that needs to be fixed. I see no reason why nailing an unprotected head with a machinists hammer wouldn't be a one hit KO. I am anxious to see how effective the new sledge hammer is because that weapon should be a one hit kill. to an unprotected head most if not all of the time. The knife however has problems as it does not deliver the shock required to knock out the target instantly (in the game) and is completely dependent on the accuracy needed to destroy the throat, the pump, or the lower brain. And I am not sure the system is mature enough to simulate any of that at this point. I see some serious and badly needed changes coming to the Melee system

UG, What part of 'weapon of last resort' didn't you get? Now be that as it may you are not going to get your, Super-Rambo-Ninja-Stealth-Instant Kill Button anytime soon IF EVER. And in the light of your Super-Rambo-Ninja-Stealth-Instant Kill Button shouldn't there be a Super-Rambo-Sentry-Mode-Impenetrable-Defense Button. It really sounds like what you want is Bethesda's V.A.T.S system as implemented in Fallout 3 and Fallout New Vegas......Good Luck With That!! :P UG wrote, "I don't see the problem with being able to kill people in one attack, it's not like stealth kills would be easy, not as easy as just shooting them but that's not always going to be an option if you sneak up on someone sitting waiting to kill people it's not a viable option to run away and find some handcuffs or a gun then come back 20 minutes later and shoot them. Unless they have no sense at all." Huh? What? Dude are you trying to say that belting someone's unprotected head from behind with an axe will not render them instantly unconscious inert and bleeding out most of the time right now? I beg to differ.

Zombie slaying is a fine sport. A great Zombie killing Safari rout that leads you near about 10 potential helicopter crash sites is Lopantino to Vybor to Kabanino to Stary Sobor to Novy Sobor (as you probably already know). Plenty of Zeds in those towns to blast most of the time and looting the good buildings along the way for ammo keeps your reserves from getting depleted. I just wish I could collect zombie ears as trophies and wear them around my damn neck. GOOD HUNTING REGULATOR LONE Beans for you sir :beans:

I couldn't possibly agree with you more Lady Kyrath the myth of the instant silent knife kill is 99.9% of the time absurd movie stuff. I'll take a silenced pistol and subsonic ammunition (or a sawed off shotgun) over a knife every time . SHOOT HIM DEAD is the best advise given in this thread thus far. The Knife Is A Weapon Of Last Resort I think the knife deal is some sort of perverted I wanna be a Ninja fantasy. Whenever I kill another player that is unaware of my presence I do so with my rifle, pistol or Longhorn from as far away as possible and then I get gone, just in case he has some buddies lurking around that I haven't seen. I may circle back and observe the kill site from a safe distance and if I deem it to be clear I might loot the corpse. But a fully geared corpse can be a honey pot that can get you killed. You simply must have some beans!!! :beans:

Are you sug "Are you suggesting fighting an unarmed untrained person or a zombie with a knife would be a fight?" Of course it would be a fight but the dumber and slower your opponent is makes it one that is easier to win for you barring random events that are not in your favor. But your initial assumption should be that your opponent armed or not is dangerous enough to end you. If you don't have that mindset you could easily end up having your knife shoved up your ass by an untrained but aggressive opponent. And FYI there just happens to be a world of crazy un-tained berserk fighters out there that can kill a host of trained fighters (of course the opposite is also true). Things are just happening too fast in a real fight to calculate exactly where you intend to drill someone (if you are thinking of it you are too slow) which is exactly why good fighters of any kind use combinations. When an opportunity presents itself it happens and openings by the way often last less than a second. So in the end its muscle memory that determines the survivor most of the time and either you have MM that is developed in training or in fights OR you don't. And guess what a normal sized trained fighter is very often at a distinct disadvantage against a large powerful berserker type with a significant reach and weight advantage. Your actions may end up killing the guy but that may be after he has taken you out. But we were talking about stealth kills with a knife weren't we? And getting an instant silent kill with a knife is an exception and not the rule no matter how skilled someone is (unless the target is asleep, stoned or blind dumb and stupid. Better to use a machete or sword for that purpose and amputate pieces of the guys body and then deliver the kill shot. And five will get you ten that a ripping diagonal slash delivered by your sharp ass bayonet affixed to your rifle will defeat a heavy jacket and cut meat most of the time.If you cut enough meat you have created a cripple. In bayonet training I have seen tires cut deeply via a hard slashing blow and that renders your notion that a jacket will deflect any and all slashes absurd. And that beings me to the notion that we should be able to reinforce our clothing with leather and other materials to make them better at resisting melee damage that is delivered by a blade. As for crushing weapons such as the new sledge hammer good luck you'll need some serious plate armor to dissipate a solid blow from one of those. Melee combat is far more complex than running and gunning and it is far more complex to program into a simulation as well. Still that doesn't alter the fact that some improvements are necessary so on that we may be in agreement. One thing I know is that without a skill development system of some sort a melee attack button makes little sense since everyone will have it hence nothing changes. Probably the best solution is to give a behind the curtain melee attack power and accuracy bonus to those that rack up a good number of kills with melee weapons. Lets say after a certain number melee kills you get a button. Experience is the best teacher and advantages should be earned. Shouldn't a player also suffer a permanent wound damage penalty for repetitive injuries to a limb or the head? I think that is reasonable. However In a persistence world you can jump off a building re-spawn and head back to where you stashed your best gear. Which is really a monumental cheat so shouldn't at least some of your gear vaporize as a result of your previous death?

Are you trying to suggest that you have a clue about how to use a knife? Tell me have you ever been in a knife fight? Didn't think so. Ever stalked and then silently removed a sentry with a knife? Didn't think so. (me neither) I wont say that the melee system is top notch. And I agree that there is room for a couple of knife attack technique keys if that's what you are talking about. But I would prefer having them add CC techniques with the rifle and bayonet such as horizontal & vertical butt strokes, head and body bayonet thrusts, and vertical, horizontal and diagonal slashes myself. Perhaps a player should be able to program a key to deliver a combination of techniques with a melee weapon such as: (Rifle and Bayonet) •from the on guard position 1)thrust to the head 2)Horizontal or Vertical Butt Stroke 3)Reverse direction horizontal or vertical slash •Return to the on guard position And by the way sneaking up on someone is rather dependent on the type of ground you are traversing, the clothing and gear you are wearing among other things so how do you intend to control those critical variables? Do you suggest a magic Joe-stealth button that creates a zone of invisibility and silence around your character as well? :blush: Yes the melee system needs work but there are more pressing concerns for the devs to deal with at the moment.

Ohhhhh! yeah that's what we need automation so that dummies that don't know the controls can suddenly become Rambo-Joe-Stealthkillman. Clue 1: In RL the hardest thing imaginable is sneaking up on someone that is being reasonably alert and delivering an instantly lethal silent attack with a melee weapon. Clue 2: Remaining undetected during your approach becomes exponentially harder the closer you get. For those reasons I guess that's why sub sonic ammunition and high performance suppressors have become popular. Screw that fantasy disco button and make some of these available.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvF4yurWSc0 perhaps what is really needed is a wrist mounted Stealth Boy that pipes Pink Panther Music to your ears while you are invisible.

Don't feel like the lone ranger today I capped a duffer that was armed with a .22 rifle in the tent city of the NWAF and he never saw me. I have a full kit and I wanted nothing from the guy except his absence from my radius of safety. As I said in my earlier post I trust no one especially not people like myself or you. But there is the fact that you are entirely predictable in that you will do the right thing for yourself 100% of the time at the expense of all those around you. It is my assumption that everyone is just like you..or me for that matter. There isn't anyone I wouldn't drop like a bad habit just for being too close to me because the only survival I care about is MINE. Back stabbing.... as in what happens every time you entertain the thought of being nice

Nah! Just a stickler for accuracy and Also pragmatic with respect to extending compassion to potential back stabbing pricks I would imagine..

An interesting and very attractive notion. Unfortunately I have learned too many times that a good deed never goes unpunished in this realm. When I first started playing I was shot and killed a half a dozen times when I had marginal gear. So I stopped waving and announcing that I am friendly. I have been killed while rendering assistance and sharing gear, food and even forking over an extra weapon to a have not. Now I Have The Best weapons, plenty of ammunition, food and peripheral gear and I have no desire to get popped in the back by someone while in the act of playing the good Samaritan any longer. For me its KoS anyone that is a potential threat to me and is moving in my direction. If they are headed away from me I observe with my finger on the trigger if they get too close pop goes the weasel. Shit I have even had new-spawns that I saved by killing Zeds that were kicking the shit out of them attack me with bare knuckles. It seems like I am main stream because just about everyone is out hunting other players. I get shot at crossing open ground, or while killing Zeds and in chance encounters. I don't always have the opportunity to fire first but for months and months I have lucked out and riddled a slew of other players that thought it would be cool to bag some easy gear and put another notch on their weapon of choice. I take no pleasure in gratuitous PvP. Well that's a lie.... when I detect a dumb would be sniper that has staked out an area to pop random people I will take a shot at exterminating the MuFkr and disposing of the clowns weapons and gear so that the bastard will have to find new shit. I have tossed a good number of scoped AKs and Mosins into the weeds never to be found again and riddled the corpses to ruin everything I can. And of course those suspected of server hopping get a bullet in the kisser if at all possible. I avoid all other players if I can if not the engagement begins. Really wish the Zeds were formidable enough in numbers to give everyone a serious common enemy and thus preclude a lot of this PvP and KoS nonsense. I like this rendition of Mad World best.

First Enjoy these Beans Evil Minion Evil Minion, as usual you are making a lot of sense and I agree 100%. I have a pretty good idea that you know how to calculate a shot Evil Minion so what follows if for those that do not. Evil Minion With your adjustments The problem becomes determining Range and Wind Value (This could be limited to a few calls and adjustments: Range ........ use mill dots to determine the height of the target in mils and get your range In your mill dot scope At 500m a man stands ~ 4 mils high At 750m a man stands ~ 2.7 mils high At 1000m a man stands ~ 2 mils high At 1250m a man stands ~ 1.6 mils high At 1500m a man stands ~ 1.33 mils high At 1750m a man stands ~ 1.41 mils high At 2000m a man stands ~ 1 mil high Determining Wind aim off (Wind Value should be limited to 1/2 value , Full value, or Double value for simplicity.) For full value winds: At 500 meters aim off .4 mill At 750 meters aim off .7 mill At 1000 meters aim off .9 mil At 1250 meters aim off 1.2 mills At 1500 meters aim off 1.5 mills At 1750 meters aim off 1.8 mills At 2000 meters aim off 2.2 mils For 1/2 value winds divide the above aim offs by 2 For double value winds multiply the above aim offs by 2 If you miss your first shot but have observed the strike of your round apply BOT (Burst On Target) as indicated below. If you did not see your impact reengage with the same data or recalculate the shot. Note: to determine range through your realistically laid out mill dot scope apply this formula: Range = (Actual Target height) ÷ (Measured Target Height in Mils X 1000) Note: The height of a man for military purposes is assumed to be 2 meters For further information consult the Hornady Ballistics Calculator http://www.hornady.com/ballistics-resource/ballistics-calculator

I hear what you are saying but with the games rudimentary ballistics subroutine in place a 1/2 MOA .50 cal sniper rifle would simply be too much of a God Gun. I say NO to such things unless they intend to add realistic environmental effects on the projectile in flight and allow for corrective aim offs or sight adjustments prior to taking the shot. If that is not done then any idiot could get a hit at 1500yards and that just isn't the case in real life. Example: A full value 10mph cross wind can push a 750grain A-Max .510 boat tail bullet 86 inches to the right or left (over seven feet) at 1500 yards and 36 inches at 1000yards. Things that if calculated and applied incorrectly can cause wide misses at long range are: Barometric pressure Altitude Ambient Temperature Ammo Temperature Firing angle (up or down hill) Wind Velocity and Wind Angle (% of a full value wind) Ammunition Lot Number and manufacture (Change of loading Density) Ammunition Temperature Humidity To ignore the fact that long range accuracy is almost entirely dependent on the shooters skill and application of environmental data is absurd. I'm sorry, just tapping page up or page down to change the range makes the process too damn easy. Another reality is that an M82 Barrett weights about 30lbs and 20 rounds of M2 Ball ammunition weights 5 lbs how much encumbrance should a player suffer carrying one around the map?

You would be DEAD wrong on that about the MOD little sport. Now run along and find a game that is easy enough for you. Perhaps one that is written by a very giving game show host that wants you to have everything your little heart desires. We don't need .50 cal sniper rifles, belt fed weapons, Anti Tank GUided Missiles, RPGs BMPs or any of that shit...this is a survival game remember?

What about a 14.5mm sniping weapon? A 20mm LAHTI antitank rifle? A GAUSS rifle? A Star Trek Phaser? And let me guess you'd wan't these weapons to be weightless and come with infinite capacity magazines. NO!

why do people want to get rid of snipers? Could it be that they like to have the option of running around with their heads stuck up their asses? Snipers make the game interesting, its fun to KoS snipers that have tunnel vision. And Jfiles I wonder if the guy that suggested that 'great Logic' is actually the unholy offspring of Diane Feinstein & Chuck Schumer?.

I have no idea how much motorcycle helmet and construction hard hat helmet 'really' protects a player from impact damage but I do believe that without a good motorcycle or hard hat helmet a single zombie or axe hit to your skull can be a ticket to the coast. I don't know where to find the exact data on a zombie hit to the head so I will use the values for the splitting and Firefighters axe. The Bible says that Pristine Motorcycle helmet has a resistance against shock of 7000 The Bible says that Pristine Hard hat helmet has a resistance against shock of 5000 The Bible says that Pristine Ballistic helmet has a resistance against shock of ZERO (This is hard to believe) Damage delivery by: Splitting Axe Shock (Head) 5000 Firefighters Axe Shock (Head) 10000 Zombie Attack >=5000 if directed at the head? **Does anyone know the actual amounts of shock damage Zombie double Maul and flying Attack do?** My assumption is that either of the two zombie attack types can deliver >= 5000 points of shock damage (your maximum blood level) which will render an unprotected player unconscious or dead instantly. A healthy player has a natural defense of 5000 vs shock A pristine motorcycle helmet can absorb 7000 points of shock damage A pristine Hard Hat helmet can absorb 5000 points of shock damage A pristine Ballistic helmet can absorb ZERO points of shock damage So based on what I know (which isn't much) a healthy player can: •With a Current Blood Level of 5000 and wearing a pristine motorcycle helmet (7000 armor points) can take a Firefighters Axe hit to the head of 10000 and remain conscious. Two hits lights out, •With a Current Blood Level of 5000 and wearing a pristine motorcycle helmet (7000 armor points) can take a Splitting Axe hit to the head of 5000 and remain conscious. But 3 hits to the grape means lights out. •With a Current Blood Level of 5000 and wearing a pristine Hard Hat helmet (5000 armor points) a Firefighters Axe hit to the head of 10000 will render the player unconscious with one hit. •With a Current Blood Level of 5000 and wearing a pristine Hard Hat helmet (5000 armor points) can take one Splitting Axe hit to the head of 5000 and remain conscious. but the second hit to the head means lights out. •With a Current Blood Level of 5000 and wearing a pristine Ballistic helmet ZERO (shock) armor points can not take a hit to the head with either the splitting or Firefighters axe to the head and remain conscious. A good way to almost guarantee taking a maul or lunge attack to the head is to take it while kneeling. My proof is that in the last two days I have had two Pristine motorcycle helmets ruined with single hits and taken damage that removed the healthy status of the character. In neither case was I bleeding and in both cases I had not been hit previously and was Healthy, Hydrated and Energized. In both cases I had underestimated the distance a zombie will now chase you and I had stupidly knelt to drink in one case and mess with my inventory in the other. So I am not saying my assumptions are accurate but rather I am looking to see what some of you guys have experienced and know about defense against melee head hits delivered by zombies on a side note WOBO says that two punches to the unprotected head can knock a healthy player out. The obvious remedy, If you get belted in the head hard enough to ruin your motorcycle or hard hat helmet and significantly degrade your health the immediate prescription is an injection of Epi that you can self administer to completely restore your ability to take shock damage instantly and find a new helmet ASAP..

Your comment is not wrong Vest 1) If you are wearing a good vest with a trauma plate you will feel all of the Kinetic energy that bullet has to offer because it has been caught or captured by the vest and the trauma plate disperses the force. With an intermediate round like the 5.56 or 7.62 x39 that could be (depending on range) be between 1400ftlbs (at 1 m) and 400 foot pounds at 500m)..you will be moved back in the same way a solid punch moves you back. No Vest 1) If the slug passes through meat only you will not be moved back much at all BUT the hydro-shock of a supersonic projectile could easily send you to the ground stunned for a bit. 2) If the slug hits a heavy bone more energy will be transferred to your body and you will be sent back a bit and the hydro shock may stun you to the ground. in general you can say that if the recoil can't knock you down when you fire your rifle, the bullet sure can't knock the target down when it hits him.

Sir you are 100% correct. This also true of other small caliber bullets that have slowed to transonic or sub sonic speeds at ranges beyond 500m for cartridges like the 5.56mm NATO (and other similar rounds). I Think it has something to do with the low cross sectional density and low momentum of the projectiles that cause it to deflect and change its path and bounce around inside the body. People scoff at the .22LR but it is in fact a pretty nasty little customer. Have some beans :beans:

Sleeves, That's a good idea but I am sad to say that it would have little positive effect on the game in terms of play-ability. The Anatomy Of the Arm (simplified). Shoulder joint, Humerus Bone, Brachial Artery *** Brachial Nerve*** Bicep, Tricep, Elbow Joint, Radius bone Radial nerve Radial artery Ulna Bone Ulnar artery posterior and Anterior forearm muscles Wrist Joint Hand Note that the destruction of any of the structures in the preceding list not only causes loss of weapon control on your strong side but also equals a permanent cripple or a slow kill. (imagine having your hand shot off or an arm severed at the elbow) A good amount of bleeding, a broken bone, a wildly swaying weapon is a practical solution to a complex problem. So for simplicity's sake allow players to have a sling or leash and make it wise for the player to switch to his weak side if his strong side is damaged (after a short stun period) however If no sling is in use the weapon drops into the dirt. So IMHO your idea is good but has already been addressed in part by the Devs. You can't shoot for shit with an injured arm until it is splinted. Add dropping an unleashed weapon and the ability to go weak side and you would be cooking with gas. And I don't think that would be too terribly difficult to implement. Note: FYI a .22 slug will most certainly break or even shatter an arm bone. A bone has tremendous compression strength but little resistance to torque, shear or impacts that are perpendicular to the long axis of the bone.

Shaking is an early sign that you are heading towards hypothermia. If that trend continues will get worse all the way to hypothermia and death. How about these being available to interrupt the cycle. You are shaking = drink hot liquids.

I Like it but for now I think being able to hear a zed walking, stumbling, or running at you from the same distance they can hear you would be a good start is the ticket. I really hate stealth zeds although since zeds have such a limited attack profile this may be intentional. In any case thanks for the good post.

Beans for you sir :beans:

You made yourself clear, I was just saying that barriers should be destructible hence tools would be alternate 'Keys'. Of course Keys should exist what good is a lock and chain or a security door without a Key?

I agree the ability to establish a number of small remote stashes is the way forward! And that was a good plan to give a looter something for his trouble but hide the good stuff some distance away. :thumbsup: I am in favor of sledge hammers, axes, picks, dynamite, rifle fire, C-4, Grenades, battering rams, and cutting torches as keys. But most of all those that wish to build an elaborate base from an existing structure should understand that ownership is volatile and if such a base is not used frequently it is open for all along with all the gear and chow it contains. If I were to have a base I would want a basement respite under a remote farm house complete with a heavy entry door in the house and an exterior storm cellar door outside. And of course the ability to place booby traps and anti tamper destruct charges inside it to prevent anyone from gaining anything but blast waves and shrapnel for their home invasion efforts. Have some beans :beans:

How about a growing necklace of zombie ears to signify one as a zombie slayer. I have suggested this several times. The reward is that every time you bag 50 you can craft bottle of Zombie repellent that actually works 50% of the time.