A Rapid Clotting Agent

[Lights Out 141]

Sorry when I said "Pain" or hurt I meant like it would knock off a few Blood points. Not the effect status pain. Sorry bout that. I figured it could hurt like 50-100 blood (or some smallish amount) but in the long-run save more than if you let him bleed

Not going to work, now you're going into a health mechanic instead of the blood mechanic that is used. Nothing should instantly take blood from you, because well, that's not how blood works. Instead injuries cause a wound in which you start to lose blood.

Edited October 11, 2012 by Lights Out

[TrialBySword 10]

Not going to work, now you're going into a health mechanic instead of the blood mechanic that is used. Nothing should instantly take blood from you, because well, that's not how blood works. Instead injuries cause a wound in which you start to lose blood.

Yeah I suppose you're right. I guess I wasn't thinking of it that way. This is very unique game when it comes to "health" thanks for correction.

I was thinking of how when a zombie hits you, or when you're shot, it removes blood instantly. Kinda like that... Something to balance it. But going for realism it should probably just be temporary. I just don't want to implement a "magic insta-heal!" that is uber cheap.

Edited October 11, 2012 by TrialBySword

[TrialBySword 10]

Listen guys, I'm not afraid to see this idea die if it doesn't fit, and you guys are bringing up some good points.

I would like, however, to see some kind of way to stop bleeding quickly in the heat of battle, whether it be tourniquets (again, I've applied them and they're slower...not to mention a LAST RESORT for an EMT to use) or something else along those lines.

I only suggested a clotting agent because that is what I have experience with, and it's also what I keep in my home medi jump-bag, my range bag, and my BOB, for bleeding emergencies. It is also, no doubt, something I would keep in my front pocket if I ever had the slightest thought I'd end up in a gunfight.

[Riem 164]

I like it. I've always wondered what kind of magical bandages we have that somehow fix internal injuries from being shot as well.

It does need to be balanced, as it would perhaps seem sort of gamey to have something that instantly stops bleeding, no matter how realistic. So a rare spawn, and it should have some kind of downside, such as it is only a very temporary fix, and perhaps is very painful to apply.

Since we don't know exactly how the health/blood system is going to work, we can't make all that many suggestions as for how to exactly fix it.

But for now the idea is sound and in my opinion would offer a realistic option to stop bleeding. Bandaging should also take longer, or be rarer/less effective, to balance.

[TrialBySword 10]

Demonstration: EDIT: NOT FOR THE SQUEAMISH;

This is what we carried on our rigs. It doesn't burn like Quikclot and clots faster too. Quikclot however, is more popular. I'm not calling for a particular brand, just a hemostatic agent in general to offer a new aspect to combat gameplay. Even as far as to be able to use it while running, cycle through weapons, crowbar, flares, grenade, hemostat! (or tourniquet) player clicks, bleeding temporarily stopped without breaking stride.

Again, the 5 minute direct pressure is purely protocol and the clotting is virtually instantaneous. Would probably want to keep a hand on it while shuffling away, but if your life is on the line no need for an insane amount/allotment of pressure unless you're trying to avoid malpractice lawsuits.

Just trying to inject a new aspect for combat. Something to "Apply and fight" or "Apply and run away" where you don't have 10 seconds to bandage and if you don't use it you risk bleeding to unconsciousness.

I'M NOT AFRAID TO KILL THIS IDEA IF IT TRULY SUCKS OR DOESN'T WORK! Especially if health/blood is getting reworked for the SA. But I truly think it has potential with my real life experiences. If someone has a better idea for some kind of "active/on the go" bleeding control, please share.

Edited October 11, 2012 by TrialBySword

[TrialBySword 10]

But for now the idea is sound and in my opinion would offer a realistic option to stop bleeding. Bandaging should also take longer, or be rarer/less effective, to balance.

This and the cyanoacrylate/superglue idea suggested by Zeppa as a DIY temp bleeding control. Still would probably take way longer than clotting agent but I like the idea of a somewhat common item that can be used to stop bleeding. I personally believe the bandage is way too common. You find them everywhere! Now I can see improvised bandages maybe from torn clothes or bed sheets to make 4x4 pads and wrap em... getting off topic...

[Zeppa 562]

Well I think most of the household has bandages, and cars as they have first aid kit (this is something that could be introduced and contains basic suplies).

And other things should be usable as bandages also, like cloth and paper towels.

So I woudnt reduce amount of bandages they would do their job for more longer fix and permanent fix for certain wounds. Also clothing and stuff could be used for splints like bandages.

We shall see what rocket has planned, as there is going to be whole new medical system. But there "quickfixes" would be usefull also, if they are faster than bandaging.

[birdman 108]

The American Army has pretty much done away with quick clotting agents. They have used Hemcon bandages and Quik Clot in the past but it is not used any longer. The problem was that you stop the bleeding immediately but if you couldn't get to medical care soon there was no point. The clotting agent doesn't set a would it only clots blood. After a while the clot will break away and the bleeding will start again. Or more dangerously some of the clot would move through the artery or vein and cause blood loss (compartment syndrome) to an extremity or Pulmonary Embolism (deadly).

The Army now uses a tourniquet for any extremity injury regardless if an artery is cut or not. This is for three reasons:

1. Cheap

2. Effective

3. You must get to a doctor after severing or nicking an artery anyway. You can not set the wound without it being sewn shut or carterized. If you carterize an artery you end blood flow to that extremity and it will have to be amputated or it will turn gangrenous. Only a doctor has the skill to properly stitch an artery as the psi of blood through an artery is enough to shoot 30ft if the conditions are right.

All first aid for bleeding requires delaying exsanguination until the patient can be transported to a medical facility. That won't happen in dayZ unless you include some sort of doctor class (which would suck).

[TrialBySword 10]

@thebirdolux

I know the military has done away with powders themselves, I had heard they use bandages, 4x4s, sponges, etc laced with a clotting agent although I haven't verified. I know they don't use the more popular brand QuikClot (as it's horrible) I had heard they were experimenting with Celox. I have not actually followed up with this, but can tell you the few private ambulance companies I've worked for have used it - both powder and 4x4s

If an artery was wholly or partially severed tourniquets, a clot agent or even a bandage (with lots of pressure) wouldn't really work out unless the player could get to a doctor. Either way you risk embolism or gangrene. We don't know what kind of bleeding happens in the game as it doesnt specify and a mere bandage can stop it. Judging by the speed of blood flow viewing from third person it appears to be an artery... Your game character would be pretty much effed regardless in DayZ's apocolyps scenario.

Even if it's not a cut artery it seems there is no 100% realistic way to have a quick temp bleeding fix, but then again patching yourself up with a bandage in 10 seconds without disinfecting/direct pressure isn't very realistic either. I'm still hoping there might be a way to apply a temporary 'combat patch' without it seeming too far-fetched. I like the tourniquet idea if nothing else...

Edited October 11, 2012 by TrialBySword

[Lights Out 141]

The way I see it is if you're caught in a dangerous situation alone and you're losing blood quickly, in real life your chances of surviving are grim. You need to find a safe place to treat yourself quickly.

If you're with a group, they can at least lay cover fire while you're fixed up. It seems to me like leaving this out will further encourage teamplay.

Edit: I like the idea but we need to see the new medical system to accurately add a downside to this treatment. It cant just be, well it's not permanent. We'd have to find a way to accurately implement side effects into the game.

Edited October 11, 2012 by Lights Out

[TrialBySword 10]

The way I see it is if you're caught in a dangerous situation alone and you're losing blood quickly, in real life your chances of surviving are grim. You need to find a safe place to treat yourself quickly.

If you're with a group, they can at least lay cover fire while you're fixed up. It seems to me like leaving this out will further encourage teamplay.

Edit: I like the idea but we need to see the new medical system to accurately add a downside to this treatment. It cant just be, well it's not permanent. We'd have to find a way to accurately implement side effects into the game.

Well put sir. I agree and think it's best to wait. Also, if my quick patch idea isn't popular or wouldn't add any thing then there is no point in discussing it further.

As much as I'd hate to discourage team play, I do enjoy being the 'lone wolf' type. Which is probably why I came up with this idea in the first place lol.

[Lights Out 141]

Well put sir. I agree and think it's best to wait. Also, if my quick patch idea isn't popular or wouldn't add any thing then there is no point in discussing it further.

As much as I'd hate to discourage team play, I do enjoy being the 'lone wolf' type. Which is probably why I came up with this idea in the first place lol.

Yea I understand that but as in reality, lonewolfs should struggle with a lot of tasks. It's tough surviving alone.

Of course groups have their own set of challenges such as finding enough food and such to sustain their life and of course the fact that everyone has their ideas. There's going to be disagreements and of course you pay for each other's action (ex. not properly rationing food, firing a gun and attracting zombies).

Keep in mind this thread and just bump it when the alpha is released or if more information is released that is relevant to this.

[DemonGroover 8836]

I've got an idea - why not introduce Healing Potions that we can guzzle down 12 at a time while the game is paused?

[Lights Out 141]

I've got an idea - why not introduce Healing Potions that we can guzzle down 12 at a time while the game is paused?

Bad troll.

This stuff is real, has been used, and works effectively. I just don't know if it can be used as quickly as the OP wants to use it, I know it comes in a gauze. Maybe if it comes in a patch as well you could open the pack quickly, slap it on and continue running all in a short period of time. Not in stride though.

And of course as noted, the side effects would have to be effectively implemented as well because from what I've read, there are some serious ones.

Edited October 12, 2012 by Lights Out

[TrialBySword 10]

@DemonGroover

I'm not even going to respond to your lame ass troll.

EDIT: Actually I guess I just did but I'll just add that you suck at trolling.

Edited October 12, 2012 by TrialBySword

[TrialBySword 10]

I'm liking the pos/neg feedback pplz. Thank you all and please keep it up. I think I've said all that I can to either have this idea considered or killed. I'll come back to this thread in a month; maybe peek occasionally and see how it's doing. For now I have a shit ton if work ahead of me college/work-wise but hopefully I'll be slightly more free when the SA comes around.

Later

[Zeppa 562]

This is one reason why skills should be introduced to dayz... someone could train him self to be a doctor that could fix the artery, stitch the wound and shit or a mechanic to fix the huey, everyone can(almost) change the car tire but helicopter..mmm dont think so... or both if he want to take the time to train...but ofc it shouldnt be so easy that everyone could walk around as superhumans doing everything perfectly like now...

(everyone could learn everyskill if they take the time)

Edited October 12, 2012 by Zeppa

[Heiduk 265]

Before continuing with the medical nerd fest. From a gameplay perspective, I still dispute the assertion that there needs to be a way to stop bleeding in less than 10 seconds while on the run. I much prefer the somewhat methodical, relatively authentic feel of ARMA combat compared to your typical run-and-gun deathmatch.

And as far as tourniquets, realistically you'll lose your arm if you leave one on too long.

I think this risk gets overstated. The US Military has gained a huge amount of experience with them in the past decade with very few complications. The papers I remember reading have looked at hundreds of cases and found no evidence of any limbs being lost because of the application of a tourniquet, even when improperly applied or left on for several hours. A friend who recently came back was told application for 24 hours was fine, although I'm not sure how current or scientifically grounded that recommendation is.

[Tourniquets are] More effective, yes. Faster, no.

That's probably true if you're rolling up on a bus and pulling it out of your bag but combat tourniquets are often pre-applied. The idea being that when hit you can tighten it one-handed before bleeding out. This can probably be done faster than you can: expose the wound, dig a packet of Celox out of your pouch/bag, tear it open, and dump it on the wound. Of course applying a tourniquet also renders the limb pretty much useless so maybe in game you apply one then have to hop away from the Zeds on one leg at half speed.

A disclaimer, my limited experience is with wilderness rather than combat medicine so most of the above is second hand information.

[birdman 108]

@TrialBySword

If you are looking for good bleeding preventatives in a post apocalyptic world look no further than bleached white flour (seriously). It cakes in the wound pretty much instantly, stopping moderate to severe blood-loss and gives you an hour or so to get to either a medical facility or skilled care-giver. Also I hear tea-bags work good for stopping bleeding after a tooth extraction (again, seriously) and may be effective at stopping minor blood loss. Both of these would be way more common in the DayZ theatre. But, when an artery is severed you are pretty much dead, no matter how long you delay the inevitable.

Edited October 12, 2012 by thebirdolux