Thought on Bases, Bandit vs. Survivor Balancing and Teamspeak-Gangs

[Dude3000 1]

Hi guys, I have been lurking the forum since I started playing DayZ a few months ago. Today I had some downtime riding on the railroad and started thinking about a few things that could improve DayZ in my opinion. I came up with a concept which I would like to share here on the forum.

First of all I would like to say that I like many of the ideas posted here in this section. In particular these folowing sugestions:

http://dayzmod.com/f...-a-living-hell/

http://dayzmod.com/f...-an-arma-2-mod/

I personally see a bit of a problem in the game giving little incentive to deal with people in any other way than putting bullets into them. But that topic has been done to death. I realize there are differing opinions. But those who feel that there is *too much* PvP going on at the moment might want to continue reading. If you feel DayZ should be more about straight forward Deathmatch, this topic might not be for you.

So here go my thoughts:

A) Introduce Bases populated with NPC's. Excessive PvP is likely the cause of low return for choosing the peacefull path. Giving incentives for cooperative play, where each individual must gauge the lure of quick return (killing and stealing) against the payoff of long-term benefits for risking trust (good guy path) is the way DayZ should go. In the real world, incentives for behaving in a social manner are usually given by ones community. I think this would make it a more fun and interesting game overall while still giving players who want to be bandits the opportunity to do that without losing the fun of playing the game that way. There could be two constant, NPC operated Bases on the map:

A.1) The Survivor Base

- Location: Deep in the northern woods. Reaching it would be a challenge and could become part of mid-game gameplay objectives.

- Security: NPC guards, well armed, shoot bandits and murderers (if you have killed a non-bandit on that playthrough you are a murderer, regardless of humanity-alignment) on sight. Cannot equip/fire weapon while inside.

- Function: Store/shop (food, basic equipment, introduce currency?, buys a little cheaper than it sells), basic medical services (only refill blood to where player character can function/does not randomly fall unconcious) players can give voluntary aid in this location to gain humanity, direct player-player trade via special interface (or indirect through store) in safe surroundings, hero-characters get slightly better services, NPC's as quest givers? (bounty for bandit headwraps perhaps)

- Story background: The survivor base grew around the place where the remaining government drops supplies to aid the survivors inside the quarantine area. Hence the opportunity to get basic supplies and medical aid. However, even the good guys who have established themselves there first (NPC's) see that the best way to regulate who gets what is to charge for it and establish a working community and economy. Letting benefiting survivors contribute to the community by giving out missions (quests?) and trading for things that are not air-dropped.

A.2) The Bandit Base

- Location: The southern coastal region.

- Security: Bandits live in the paranoid hellhole they themselves contribute to. Only NPC's are protected by Bodyguards, who will shoot anyone who draws their weapon near them.

- Function: Store/Shop (sells only what is brought in and sold to them by non-NPC raiding parties, buys cheap and sells expensive), NPC quest givers? (loot chemicals for the drug-laboratory maybe), "Medical Services" (sells highly addictive drugs against pain and other conditions to get you hooked quick, once you bought their stuff you'll be their customer)

- Story background: As organized crime got a hold of the region, bosses (NPC's) have figured out how to turn the apocalypse into a business by gainig power over all men of low morale fiber. Easy access drugs and the lure of quick return helped them to get a grip on parts of the region.

B.) Now this might be a little out there and I know many of you might not like the idea, but bear with me here. Part of the fun in DayZ Standalone could be being forced to deal with strangers. Right now the servers are populated with teamspeak gangs who leave lone travelers no chance to team up with them over the games voice function or even stand a chance in a firefight. They dominate many servers and may take away from the fun and immersion, especially for newbies or people who don't have the time to be a member of such a group.

Here's what I think could, and in my humble opinion should, be done about that. The DayZ Standalone client could randomly place players on servers at its own discretion, filling servers up one by one. Sort of like World of Tanks handles that. That way ganging up on one server would be impossible and force people to deal with whoever they meet. The Bandit/Survivor/Hero-ratio balancing could be programmed to mimic the current global average. Of course people could still play with their friends on private hives. This might make a lot of people unhappy at first, however, it might add a lot to everybodies experience in the long run.

So these are my thoughts. Think its complete bollocks? Like it? Have something to add (or subtract)? Please feel free to discuss, but please keep it civil ;)

Peace!

[Tomas889 14]

Love the idea of the NPC bases! Especially the survivor one, one thing i would mention is placement of the Bandit Base. I don't believe it should be at the South coast as thats where everyone spawns, instead I think it should be placed nearby the East coast.

Also, I don't think I can agree with the "Random Joining". Its not like theres tons of these team speak clans dominating servers, there still are other people with a simple mic who will teamup. You just need to find them, and hope you dont run into a clan on the way to finding them!

Still, loved the idea in a whole, so good job! :beans:

[Dude3000 1]

@Tomas

Thanks!

As far as the spawn locations go, I would even suggest randomizing them inside the woods just north of the coast. Getting away from the bandits greeting you at first would be something that might add to the game, however, spawning randomly inside of the woods might give one a chance to get away a *bit* easier.

[indominator 95]

no npcs, i think you havent been lurking enough, or you havent lurked suggestions before. Also, bases must be made by players, not as that other game i wont say the name. And forcing people to play away from their friends is the most horrible idea i have ever heard.

dude, this is so fail and graveyard

[starwarsfan@gmx.de 450]

I stopped reading at bases populated with NPC's. <- worst idea ever(well that one might actually go to the random air strikes idea but you're close enough)

[Statik (DayZ) 2695]

Hi guys, I have been lurking the forum since I started playing DayZ a few months ago. Today I had some downtime riding on the railroad and started thinking about a few things that could improve DayZ in my opinion. I came up with a concept which I would like to share here on the forum.

First of all I would like to say that I like many of the ideas posted here in this section. In particular these folowing sugestions:

http://dayzmod.com/f...-a-living-hell/

http://dayzmod.com/f...-an-arma-2-mod/

I personally see a bit of a problem in the game giving little incentive to deal with people in any other way than putting bullets into them. But that topic has been done to death. I realize there are differing opinions. But those who feel that there is *too much* PvP going on at the moment might want to continue reading. If you feel DayZ should be more about straight forward Deathmatch, this topic might not be for you.

So here go my thoughts:

A) Introduce Bases populated with NPC's. Excessive PvP is likely the cause of low return for choosing the peacefull path. Giving incentives for cooperative play, where each individual must gauge the lure of quick return (killing and stealing) against the payoff of long-term benefits for risking trust (good guy path) is the way DayZ should go. In the real world, incentives for behaving in a social manner are usually given by ones community. I think this would make it a more fun and interesting game overall while still giving players who want to be bandits the opportunity to do that without losing the fun of playing the game that way. There could be two constant, NPC operated Bases on the map:

A.1) The Survivor Base

- Location: Deep in the northern woods. Reaching it would be a challenge and could become part of mid-game gameplay objectives.

- Security: NPC guards, well armed, shoot bandits and murderers (if you have killed a non-bandit on that playthrough you are a murderer, regardless of humanity-alignment) on sight. Cannot equip/fire weapon while inside.

- Function: Store/shop (food, basic equipment, introduce currency?, buys a little cheaper than it sells), basic medical services (only refill blood to where player character can function/does not randomly fall unconcious) players can give voluntary aid in this location to gain humanity, direct player-player trade via special interface (or indirect through store) in safe surroundings, hero-characters get slightly better services, NPC's as quest givers? (bounty for bandit headwraps perhaps)

- Story background: The survivor base grew around the place where the remaining government drops supplies to aid the survivors inside the quarantine area. Hence the opportunity to get basic supplies and medical aid. However, even the good guys who have established themselves there first (NPC's) see that the best way to regulate who gets what is to charge for it and establish a working community and economy. Letting benefiting survivors contribute to the community by giving out missions (quests?) and trading for things that are not air-dropped.

A.2) The Bandit Base

- Location: The southern coastal region.

- Security: Bandits live in the paranoid hellhole they themselves contribute to. Only NPC's are protected by Bodyguards, who will shoot anyone who draws their weapon near them.

- Function: Store/Shop (sells only what is brought in and sold to them by non-NPC raiding parties, buys cheap and sells expensive), NPC quest givers? (loot chemicals for the drug-laboratory maybe), "Medical Services" (sells highly addictive drugs against pain and other conditions to get you hooked quick, once you bought their stuff you'll be their customer)

- Story background: As organized crime got a hold of the region, bosses (NPC's) have figured out how to turn the apocalypse into a business by gainig power over all men of low morale fiber. Easy access drugs and the lure of quick return helped them to get a grip on parts of the region.

B.) Now this might be a little out there and I know many of you might not like the idea, but bear with me here. Part of the fun in DayZ Standalone could be being forced to deal with strangers. Right now the servers are populated with teamspeak gangs who leave lone travelers no chance to team up with them over the games voice function or even stand a chance in a firefight. They dominate many servers and may take away from the fun and immersion, especially for newbies or people who don't have the time to be a member of such a group.

Here's what I think could, and in my humble opinion should, be done about that. The DayZ Standalone client could randomly place players on servers at its own discretion, filling servers up one by one. Sort of like World of Tanks handles that. That way ganging up on one server would be impossible and force people to deal with whoever they meet. The Bandit/Survivor/Hero-ratio balancing could be programmed to mimic the current global average. Of course people could still play with their friends on private hives. This might make a lot of people unhappy at first, however, it might add a lot to everybodies experience in the long run.

So these are my thoughts. Think its complete bollocks? Like it? Have something to add (or subtract)? Please feel free to discuss, but please keep it civil ;)

Peace!

I really have to disagree with you here. NPC's have no place in DayZ and they never will, they just won't mesh with the game. Plus these camps you talk about would just get taken over by by squads and either just camped for their loot, or blown sky high. I really feel that your idea would not work, and implementing them into the game would just ruin the DayZ experience.

[Lights Out 141]

No NPCs, the only humans in the game should be player controlled.

-It's way too hard to accurately replicate an actual human's decisions/reactions in code. Just too many variables.

-Increasing stuff for servers to handle. More human NPC's means less zombie NPCs, I would much rather see the max amount of NPCs a server can handle be nothing but zombies, the more the merrier.

-Engaging with characters that you know are A.I. breaks immersion.

What I think should be done instead is allow us to make our own camps. With this, I'm sure there will be players that would love to build their own survivor camp that they would protect. With enough man power (clans probably have the ability to get a large amount of players to run this camp, they can recruit for certain duties as they go along - I've seen plenty people actually willingly surrender as a prisoner and do as told, trust me, people will take the job of patrolling a camp) you can probably make your own rules here and police it as you wish.

What I'm getting at, which mirrors Rocket's vision, is make your own story.

Edited October 9, 2012 by Lights Out

[Dude3000 1]

@indominator;James Ashwood

In general, I will say that you guys might have somewhat of a lack of imagination coupled with some slight "opinion-fascism". Before you bash a thought, read all of it (looking at you Ashwood), think about it and then bash if you like. It just saddens me that this game is in Alpha and part of its fanbase is already so locked into details that anything thats different or might challenge established concepts gets flamed as a fail.

As for part A of my post: I don't believe you even attempted to understand the underlying thought. My idea is valid and it could work. *Must* it be in the game - no! But tell me why it couldnt apart from personal aversion. You guys just don't like it, so its a fail to you. You read certain words such as NPC and go: "Aw crap, its a fail, close thread, flog OP!".

I challenge you to back up your flaming with reason. I am asking no one to agree that it should be in the Standalone, but if you gonna say its crap then back it up please.

@the rest of you guys

I understand your worries about this thought and, looking at what the game is about, I understand its a bit out there. But consider the following points:

- Core gameplay would still happen outside of NPC reach. In the real world there would be people who do things no player would, cause its boring (such as tend a shop or pull guard detail 24/7). That is why NPC's, if put in the game sensibly, could actually add to the immersion. Think 100 Rads bar.

- (NPC-)bases would not be taken over, because the game would not allow that. Guards would be so overpowered that it would be impossible to take the over.

- These bases could not be lootet, as no loot spawns there. You can only buy stuff directly from the vendor.

- Air raids on camps. Hmm... alright, here it goes. I think the sky should be a no-fly zone, after all its quarantine. The only aircraft seen would be NPC (I know you guys hate the word, sorry) Jetfighters shooting down any aircraft violating the no-fly-zone.

- And remember, only two NPC bases on the map. Its still your own story, just more fleshed out. It can only add to the experience.

But hey, how about this. Lets picture this hypothetically. To get away from the angst surrounding Standalone development and the direction it might go... What would you guys think about it if it was a thought for a mod for DayZ standalone?

[Lights Out 141]

Why should these bases be unobtainable? Overpowered guards is just so unrealistic, even top military bases can be captured, especially in a post apocalyptic world. I feel that it's like running to the end of the map and hitting an invisible wall. An error message that says you are leaving the mission area (cue air strike on position)

Like I mentioned, camps should only be player run which allows for ANYTHING to happen, interactions and scenarios are endless. Rules are player made. Decisions about hostiles and misconduct are made on the fly, realistically. Calculated by a person's mind that can act on reasoning or emotion if they wish. See my last post for previous unaddressed concerns.

If you wanted it in a MOD sure, but I don't want it in my game.

Edited October 9, 2012 by Lights Out

[Dude3000 1]

@Lights out

Thanks for your input.

I really hope that it will work the way you suggest, however, the reality of the mod is that it is hard to run into somebody without getting shot at. Let alone build bases together. As of now, if basebuilding was put into the picture, they would likely become teamspeak-gang fortresses rather than hubs for survivors or bandits, which is alright. I just think it would add to the game if few such hubs were available to players independent of how far teamwork on any given server develops. If anything these camps would go a long way at encouraging teamwork.

As far as realism is concerned, there will always be an establishment which you practically can not fight. Overpowered guards are, in actuality, very realistic. Picture a wall guarded by a bunch of Brownig Heavy Machine Guns that engage reliably up to 1000 meters. And if thats not good enough, lets just say that if the base was meant to not be taken, it could be designed to not be taken. Whatever that would encompass. Its a game after all...

Alright let me give a thought on each of your particular thoughts:

"It's way too hard to accurately replicate an actual human's decisions/reactions in code. Just too many variables."

Agree, but not necessary. That part is still done by other players.

"Increasing stuff for servers to handle. More human NPC's means less zombie NPCs, I would much rather see the max amount of NPCs a server can handle be nothing but zombies, the more the merrier."

Surely we can have 5 to 10 NPC's per base on two bases total. I mean c'mon, were already using several hundreds of infected here.

"Engaging with characters that you know are A.I. breaks immersion."

I guess that is the key difference in our way of thinking. To me it just doesn't break immersion that much. I would prefer the added gameplay value. Here is where we'll have to agree to disagree I reckon.

[Lights Out 141]

Yea, it's really just differing opinions.

I guess if it were only 5 - 10 NPCs it wouldn't be a big deal, but if it were only 5-10 NPCs it also seems as if a coordinated attack would effectively take out all defenses. Which breaks immersion because logically, I'll think, why can't I take it over? Especially if a team covertly attacks from within, posing as regular survivors..

I definitely understand where you're coming from though, encouragement of teamwork. However, this can be acheived by just making the game more difficult. Make shooting your gun off without discretion highly dangerous. It should put you in hot water with zombies in the area, every single one with a certain radius closing in on the origin of the sound from every direction. Zombies are suppose to be of a bigger threat. Make the envoronment more harsh so surviving alone is a lot to handle. Rocket also mentioned a passive skill system that runs in the background which makes players more "skilled" in certain survival tasks. You would want people in your group with certain skill sets to help you survive. This would also encourage teamwork by effectively putting more worth in the character themselves and not putting it all on what's in their backpack.

In reality, you won't see many bases that are just open for any old survivor in a post apocalyptic world. Most will be run by a few trusted and will be very weary of letting others in for fear of them messing up this good thing they have. However, I'm counting on some clans putting one together. Recruiting players as they go. I mean look at the reddit rescue team, who would have thought?

Edited October 9, 2012 by Lights Out

[Pancho (DayZ) 1]

Well it seems to me that there are 2 groups on the forum right now. One, of newcomers, loners, no group or real xp in dayz that are seeing some videos on youtube and experience some harsh treatement ingame from the bandits and other allready established organization. And the veterans, allready forming guilds and roaming the countryside in groups of at least 3 persons who take no prisoners. The first group is looking for big changes/regulation to give them a chanse in the upcomming standalone game. The second is opposing any changes of this kind(rules/regulations/consequences etc) hoping to keep the advantages that they have right now.

Well, the final decission will be for the devs to take. If they whant millions of players, give noobs a chanse. If they dont need this newcommers, stay with the comunity of arma 2 and give everyone a sniperrifle and a nightvision so the things be interesting.

On the point - Npc's are hard to implement but a safe zone(with a limitation on the time allowed to spend there) will be a nice brake for many.

-drugs for bandits will be a nice, real addition.

- random spawn on random servers...now THIS IS A GREAT IDEA , why? well is not this all about survival and appocalipse. Do you think that in this case scenario u will team up with your budies just like that? Of course, a group spawn will be neccesary for the guys that allredy meet in the game....but when you die?... And the ingame voicechat should be more usefull then the skype or ts3 or whatever groups are using right now...should becomme a basic survival neccessity.

Edited October 9, 2012 by Pancho

[Zetal 90]

Man, I saw the 'Make DayZ a Living Hell' reference and got hopeful, but NPC's are never the right decision in this. This is meant to be an authentic survival game. NPC's are the complete opposite direction. Instead of big brother stepping in and giving us all a pat on the head, saying "Thanks for trying" and giving us safezones and other crap, you should be suggesting ways to guide real players unobtrusively. A way to attach people to their characters and make them care about themselves. All the problems in the game right now derive from the fact that players don't care about whether they live or die as much as they would in real life.

THIS is a problem with the game, and it shouldn't be solved by just adding random NPC's to give you hugs and flowers.

[Dude3000 1]

Well, I would like to emphasize that the NPC's would be more like assets which are part of the mentioned camps, rather than real characters a player would really interact with *too* much. Think of the NPC as an interaction interface for the bases functions (quest giving, trading, etc.). The crowd inside the base would be players using the base to communicate, trade and organize parties to go out and take actions without *constant* fear of getting punked before even getting a chance to communicate. However, as soon as the player group leaves the base, betrayal and murder becomes a reality again. This would make for paranoia, betrayal and complex "your stories" on a much more sophisticated level without really blocking anyones fun. Remember, only two bases on 225 square kilometers. Whats there to loose? That leaves 224 square kilometers for all the PvP carnage so many have come to love. But honestly, a question for all the bandits, wouldn't it be more fun roughing up *groups* of noobs who are trying to accomplish some mission. Perhaps capturing one and forcing him to rat out and tell you what other groups from inside the base are planing and where they're headed. I think it could be cool as hell:

Bandit#1: If you want to live, we want information!

Survivor: Please don't kill me, I don't want to start over at the beach...

Bandit#2: Then tell us where we find more of your kind!

Bandit#3: Where are the other groups headed?

Survivor: What other groups?

Bandit#2: *Points Shotgun at Survivor*

Survivor: Alright, a few guys asked me if I wanted to come along to Stary, they headed out about 30 Minutes ago...

Bandit#1: Coward! Get out of here before I change my mind!

Survivor: Oh my god... *runs fast*

Whats not to like? B)

Zetal:"All the problems in the game right now derive from the fact that players don't care about whether they live or die as much as they would in real life."

I have to disagree partially. I think the problems come from players not caring at all whether the other guy dies or not. Partners in DayZ are of no value, unless they are your RL/forum/clan friends.

[Zetal 90]

@Dude

"I have to disagree partially. I think the problems come from players not caring at all whether the other guy dies or not. Partners in DayZ are of no value, unless they are your RL/forum/clan friends."

And THAT derives from the fact that people don't care whether they survive. There are repercussions to killing another human being irl- whether prison, or death. In DayZ, there's an exponential increase in the chances that you will be killed if you kill another player with no forethought- and people simply don't care, because they can just respawn.

You don't need some arbitrary system to force players to do what's right- because that's actually wrong. Morally, if it were real life, and authentically, in this case. May as well code in a karma system or something silly. No- this problem should be solved at the root so as to best preserve gameplay.

Edited October 9, 2012 by Zetal