Was the recent change in survivor's motivations affected by the community or Rocket?

[kilozombie 1]

If you've seen videos from earlier in DayZ's life such as The Days Ahead, you notice that it seems to be a bunch of people playing against the zombies, the zeds being a huge problem and killing every single one of them off excluding the ones that committed suicide.

Compare to now, where most are afraid to spare one another in fear of them shooting at them.

Want to clarify this thread is NOT ABOUT WHICH ONE IS RIGHT OR WRONG, but instead if you think this is because of Rocket's updates or the ever-expanding community, and why?

[phisher34 12]

I think the bandit skin being removed was part of it. Though buggy, it was successful in establishing a difference between a good and bad player. Though I am sure a new system will replace that in the future. Unfortunately, the bug outweighed the benefits.

I also feel as people get more comfortable with the game. When you understand the mechanics of it - people become more fun to hunt down. Simply put, it is impossible to understand what another human player might do, so it is always more of a risk.

To prove this, just imagine if there were player controlled zombies. Your focus would immediately return to the threat of zombies, as you don't know what they might do. They could chase you through woods, hid behind a corner, flank you, etc. etc.

I don't think the solution is then to make player controlled zombies, but rather improve the AI to the point that no ones gets comfortable enough to put them aside - and Rocket is already taking these steps.

[kilozombie 1]

le bump.

[Wüstenfuchs (DayZ) 105]

Bandit skins got removed, and there is no longer way to identify who are the murderers and who are the good guys. At the same time, any kind of consequence for mindless killing was removed, while trying to be friendly became riskier.

Many people adopted kill-on-sight attitude, and that caused a snowball effect. Those friendlies that got shot in the head over and over again when trying to help other survivors, eventually adopted kill-on-sight too. Those of use who refuse to start murdering are just avoiding everyone but known friends, or stopped playing alltogether. From my recent deaths I can conclude that people who are now killing others on sight is about 90% of the players (from personal experience since bandit skin removal).

[Solace (DayZ) 3]

If you've seen videos from earlier in DayZ's life such as The Days Ahead' date=' you notice that it seems to be a bunch of people playing against the zombies, the zeds being a huge problem and killing every single one of them off excluding the ones that committed suicide.

Compare to now, where most are afraid to spare one another in fear of them shooting at them.

Want to clarify this thread is NOT ABOUT WHICH ONE IS RIGHT OR WRONG, but instead if you think this is because of Rocket's updates or the ever-expanding community, and why?

[/quote']

"The Days Ahead" is a series by a massive ArmA 2 clan. It's a horrible example.

[ZedsDeadBaby 2287]

Many people adopted kill-on-sight attitude' date=' and that caused a snowball effect.

[/quote']

Except it clearly didn't because survival times have climbed since then.

I have noticed exactly zero difference since the bandit skin was removed and I have never seen a compelling argument for it beyond "it worked," which it didn't. In the bandit skin days, I was killed far more often by survivors desperate for my gear than I ever was by so-called "bandits." On top of that, the first and only group of strangers I ever fell in with and ran with for an extended period of time who taught me the ropes and helped me learn the game and map were all bandit skinners every single one.

I also had the bandit skin on 4 occasions myself: twice because someone shot at me and missed, once because someone tried to steal a vehicle from me and once because I came upon someone looting my tent.

The bandit skin was a lazy, broken, forced mechanic that didn't accomplish anything and gave people a false sense of security while simultaneously falsely labeling a ton of otherwise cooperative players. It's removal changed nothing in the game. The only thing it really affected was a bunch of whining here on the forums.

[Wüstenfuchs (DayZ) 105]

Except it clearly didn't because survival times have climbed since then.

Ladder bug got fixed. There was a thread which counted the number of murders per player' date=' and number of bandits vs survivors, and these numbers went up significantly since the bandit skins got removed. Unfortunately this thread got wiped out when forum was reverted from backup.

I have noticed exactly zero difference since the bandit skin was removed

You must have been extremely lucky then, because everyone I've talked to have experienced the same effect as I personally have.

[Andrej Dudev 50]

Was the recent change in survivor's motivations affected by the community or Rocket?In response of the main question

Community without a doubt.

[ZedsDeadBaby 2287]

Ladder bug got fixed. There was a thread which counted the number of murders per player' date=' and number of bandits vs survivors, and these numbers went up significantly since the bandit skins got removed.[/quote']

No. I read that thread before it got removed, and it only tracked numbers AFTER the removal, not before. Neither was the increase "significant." It was like 1.8% over a span of a few days as I recall. I posted in the thread and pointed this out - without numbers before and after the change and a proper comparison of pre- and post-bandit skin velocities, you cannot just arbitrarily attribute the increase to the skin removal when there are hundreds of other variables changing all around us - not least of which being sheer volume and density of players.

After I posted, in fact, the OP changed the title and text of the OP because I shamed his misrepresentation of the stats so effectively.

[kilozombie 1]

The Days Ahead was with a clan, sure, but in no way is it a definite group of friends as you might find now. It was ~30 players, and only one or two adapted the "kill" motive. They were afraid of the zombies instead of the players at the time.

[Squatthrust 3]

Many people adopted kill-on-sight attitude' date=' and that caused a snowball effect.

[/quote']

Except it clearly didn't because survival times have climbed since then.

Except survival times have nothing to do with whether or not people shoot each other on sight. There's a dozen different reasons that it could be climbing, and neither of us have real time server data.

I have noticed exactly zero difference since the bandit skin was removed and I have never seen a compelling argument for it beyond "it worked' date='" which it didn't.

[/quote']

Your experience =/= everybody else's. Personally, I've noticed a sharp decline in friendly behaviors since the removal of the bandit skins. Not just saying that to be contradictory either.

Before you ask, I've done PVP, donned the bandit skin more than once, and spend most of my time up north. I also agree that the bandit skin system was a very flawed system, but it's even more of a cop-out to say that the mod should just remain a deathmatch with some zombies thrown in.

[Wüstenfuchs (DayZ) 105]

Ok. Maybe nothing changed since bandit skins got removed. Maybe I'm just dreaming and all the hundreds of other people who write threads about the kill-on-sight problem. All I can say is what I've experienced myself. Since bandit skin removal, I've tried to be friendly to strangers and got killed every time (over 10 times) except once. Before bandit skin removal, more than half of my encounters were positive.

This will be my last response to this thread, I don't want to argue about whether bandit skin removal made a change or not. I saw a significant change, and that is why I consider that (and the resulting kill-on-sight) to be the main reason for the change in survivor's motivations that the OP was asking about.

[ZedsDeadBaby 2287]

Look, I'm not trying to quash dissent or claim to hold the truth of the matter. I'm just suggesting people take a bit of care before making such definitive attributions and bold claims.

We are visual beings. And social. Seeing is believing and all that. The presence of the bandit skin was visceral. You saw, you could believe you had the truth of it and make a decision with confidence. Your brain remembers all the times bandit-skinned folk tried to kill you and all the times survivors helped you clear out the grocery store and shared loot with you, and it tucks away all the contrary evidence - the stuff that might make you question your eyes and hence your confidence - all the times those survivors fresh off the coast emptied a clip of makarov rounds into you as soon as your client loaded the beach. Waves crashing then BRAP BRAP respawn. You don't file that away under particularly memorable experiences because it doesn't match up with what your other senses are telling you.

Then, the bandit skin was gone. You felt less safe. Less confident. You couldn't be sure of anything anymore, and at the same time all these other variables are changing around you - more players in the game, more experienced players who know where to find ammo, how to avoid zombies, and where players tend to hang out, frequent lanes of travel, popular watering holes, vehicle spawns, hospitals, grocery stores, etc. With greater knowledge and greater numbers comes greater threat from players and because this happened to coincide with a visual change your brain is more than happy to say "Oh, hey, the skin went away and suddenly I'm getting shot more often so obviously one thing caused the other."

You can see, though, how that might not be true even though your brain is trying really hard to make those pieces fit together for you? And if there were a small change, how easy it might be for your brain to mistake it for a medium-sized, significant, or life-altering, game-destroying one?

Without pure numbers (pre- and post-change) - raw data and an in-depth analysis that considered the multi-dimensional nature of an online environment with ever-changing players on one side and game parameters on the other, you have to tread so carefully in making claims like this.

We see similar pitfalls in the world of online poker. You see arguments 50 pages long on poker forums where people claim that one site or another is "rigged" because they personally insist they have seen too many straight flushes, or quads, or get "sucked out on" too often, etc. They don't consider that they're playing 225 hands per hour instead of the 25 they're used to seeing in real life - sometimes 2, 3, or 4 tables at once. 1000+ hands per hour vs. 25 but their brain doesn't care. It ignores completely the 999 hands that aren't amazing and stores that 1000th one under "holy shit" and over time suddenly they're like "Gee, my holy shit file is filling up awfully fast. Something must be amiss!"

You bring up the "hundreds of posts on the forums" which is true - there are many. But, again, none of them say anything but "I seem to be getting shot more and this other thing over here changed and made me feel uncomfortable." Nobody provides any statistics, just a series of anecdotes or more often nothing at all and then a definitive statement of fact about the source of their woes. It's a recipe for cognitive bias. One person posts a message, and the next person comes along and is like "Oh, hey, my brain likes the way THAT sounds" and suddenly you've got a chorus of anecdotal agreement that yes, in fact, storks do bring babies.

I joined DayZ well before the skin was yanked. My first experience in the game with another survivor was epic. It was one of my first shoot-outs with a true horde of zombies - 15+ chasing me into a barn. As I finished them off, I heard shots from outside. "Friendly outside barn near Elektro?" I asked in side. "Yes." He came in. He went up the west stairs and I went east. He found some beans and makarov rounds and made his way over to my side where I had found a Winny with 3 stacks of ammo. As soon as I picked it up I said "He's going to want this." and my brain hadn't finished the sentence before I heard the report. I spun and pulled the trigger and hit him in the neck. He went down instantly. I was the better shot. In my panic I backed off the ledge of the the barn and broke my leg. The gun shots hand angered the rest of the zombies outside. I had to shoot them from the ground while the dude bled to death above me. Maybe it's my brain that's tricking me because this was my first impression, definitive DayZ experience. Again, neither of us can really be sure until we see the truth in numbers that no amount of anecdotes or gut feelings is going to tease out.

[septuscap 42]

Days Ahead is a group that ALREADY KNOWS EACH OTHER.

If you want, make a thread advertising a sort of pickup game. Find friendly clans and try and coordinate where and when you play.

Guard a city and enforce a "weapons in pack" policy to create safe havens (obviously pick a defensible location, and have guards make sure people are keeping their distance, ie. not stealing out of each other's packs -- maybe use wire fencing & sand bags in this regard).

If you see a player in-game, take your time and see how he's playing the game. Don't just run up to him and yell "FRIENDLY???" You *know* that odds are he's not friendly, so follow him first and see if he's hunting players or just trying to survive.

Do *something* other than just crying like whiny children.

Re: bandit skins, removing them isn't what increased banditry. What you have is the result of repetition of games. As players repeated the "game" and employing the friendly strategy failed, they decided to adopt the KOS strategy. So yes, doe eyed friendlies turned into KOS bandits; or they just avoided other players. Either way, to a friendly this would appear to be an increase in bandits. And as people flocked to the game for sandbox PvP, of course more bandits appeared.

I mean let's just say it like it is. A bunch of PvE players saw CHKilroy's videos and assumed RANDOMS would interact the same way as a pre-made clan. This is just idiotic.

[WalkerDown (DayZ) 296]

Considering that i've stopped to play this game few days after the bandit skin has been removed due to the fact that i were being killed instantly at any approach, while i lived for more than a week before and meet many "unknown" player without much trouble.. the options are two: a) i got crazy, and i've abandoned a fantastic game coz i have brain problems; b) something changed.

If you look at the problem "mathematical" .. you would immediatly realize that: before, everyone with a bandit skin were potentially "dangerous", so you wouldn't have approached them (good); on the other side, those ones with a survivor skin, and eventually with some other "tool" that identifies they weren't just spawned (no potential future bandits), in example having a weapon different than a makarov, or a different backpack, gave you some good chances to find a friendly persons. Nor that you were 100% sure, but at least the chance of being killed for no reason were only a few.

Now the chances of being killed are so high that you don't even try to be friendly, for the reason above: you don't know if you're approaching a RPG'er .. or a PvP-only player, as consequence kill on sight is the simplest decision, especially because you're not paying any price of doing so, or even better: it's convenient.

[Kolchak (DayZ) 5]

Bandit skins were Rocket's idea, he had some doubts about it, but he put it in. The vocal minority on the forums complained enough and used those doubts against him so he caved and instead of fixing it, he just removed it.

Where this becomes a problem is that it existed for a major portion of the game. If it hadn't existed, the idea of bandits would be less prevalent, there wouldn't be such a stigma. People wearing the bandit skin are attributed the deaths, whether it was them or not. They became the boogeymen of this game, not even categorized as another player, they're categorized as a danger/something that can kill you. Removing the skins didn't help it, it was too late, all it did was diffuse that sense of imminent danger to every other player. Everyone became the boogey man. It would have been "This person could help me or try to kill me." instead of "This person could be a Bandit." That's a huge difference. In the first situation, there's trepidation both ways. It's a question, "do I help them or will they shoot at me?" in the second situation the outcome isn't a question, it's an action, they will try to kill you, so you have to kill them first.

[kilozombie 1]

Days Ahead is a group that ALREADY KNOWS EACH OTHER.

If you want' date=' make a thread advertising a sort of pickup game. Find friendly clans and try and coordinate where and when you play.

Guard a city and enforce a "weapons in pack" policy to create safe havens (obviously pick a defensible location, and have guards make sure people are keeping their distance, ie. not stealing out of each other's packs -- maybe use wire fencing & sand bags in this regard).

If you see a player in-game, take your time and see how he's playing the game. Don't just run up to him and yell "FRIENDLY???" You *know* that odds are he's not friendly, so follow him first and see if he's hunting players or just trying to survive.

Do *something* other than just crying like whiny children.

Re: bandit skins, removing them isn't what increased banditry. What you have is the result of repetition of games. As players repeated the "game" and employing the friendly strategy failed, they decided to adopt the KOS strategy. So yes, doe eyed friendlies turned into KOS bandits; or they just avoided other players. Either way, to a friendly this would appear to be an increase in bandits. And as people flocked to the game for sandbox PvP, of course more bandits appeared.

I mean let's just say it like it is. A bunch of PvE players saw CHKilroy's videos and assumed RANDOMS would interact the same way as a pre-made clan. This is just idiotic.

[/quote']

Not my point. The Days Ahead is an example, there are plenty more if you weren't blind.

Thread isn't about which one is right, it's about if it's the artificial updates or the expanding community that's changing the game- not if it's for the better or for the worse.

[ZedsDeadBaby 2287]

If you look at the problem "mathematical" .. you would immediatly realize that: before' date=' everyone with a bandit skin were potentially "dangerous", so you wouldn't have approached them (good); on the other side, those ones with a survivor skin, and eventually with some other "tool" that identifies they weren't just spawned (no potential future bandits), in example having a weapon different than a makarov, or a different backpack, gave you some good chances to find a friendly persons. Nor that you were 100% sure, but at least the chance of being killed for no reason were only a few.

[/quote']

It's cute how you said "mathematical" and then just followed it with a bunch of words. That's not math. Those are English sentences, and they don't even have numerals in them. Also, you don't have to put "mathematical" in quotes; it's not fucking fairy magic. It's a real thing. You can just say the word.

I guess I should thank you for clearly demonstrating the kind of silly mental acrobatics people go through to convince themselves that their senses aren't deceiving them, but the better part of me kind of just wants to slap you for being such a ridiculous nincompoop.

[septuscap 42]

Not my point. The Days Ahead is an example' date=' there are plenty more if you weren't blind.

Thread isn't about which one is right, it's about if it's the artificial updates or the expanding community that's changing the game- not if it's for the better or for the worse.

[/quote']

That you used Days Ahead is telling though -- it's indicative of the expected experience PvE players had coming into the game. In fact I've seen it cited everywhere as how the game "should" be played -- completely ignoring the fact that they are playing with non-randoms; as you could too by setting up games ahead of time -- keep a list of friendlies/clans/RP'ers who you would play with again, and organize pickup games. You can affect the ratio of bandits:survivors on a particular server by doing this you know. All I've seen survivors do so far is whine like children.

RE: your question, there are no #'s to know precisely how much of the KOS mentality is attributed to what.

Sure, seeing a bandit skin would help you avoid/kill a bandit. But how many players were forced to kill new spawns in self defense and thus become bandits?

On the other hand, an expanding sandbox PvP fanbase is surely responsible for most of the KOS mentality. And repeated failures of the "friendly" strat surely made many friendlies turn hostile or hermit.

[dayzdeadmeat 44]

Bottom line - is this a ZA game with pvp thrown in/allowed, or is it a death match game with zombie obstacles?

I'm assuming Rocket has/will decide(d) and will drive it in that direction.

I'm hoping for a ZA game with co-op & pvp capabilities. There are a bazillion DM games out there, with much better engines.

[septuscap 42]

Bottom line - is this a ZA game with pvp thrown in/allowed' date=' or is it a death match game with zombie obstacles?

I'm assuming Rocket has/will decide(d) and will drive it in that direction.

I'm hoping for a ZA game with co-op & pvp capabilities. There are a bazillion DM games out there, with much better engines.

[/quote']

I think even PvP-minded players would love roaming hordes of zombies. It's way too easy right now to know if you'll pick up zombie aggro, where all the zombies are, etc.

And I don't know how often I can repeat this (apparently not enough), but sandbox PvP != deathmatch. There are VERY few sandbox PvP games out there. I can cite one off the top of my head, and it messed up in a lot of important ways (zerging being at the top of the list -- luckily for DayZ, modern era guns sort of build anti-zerg in right from the get go, but having to stop for supplies more often and being far more easy to spot when you do is also a huge anti-zerg feature).

[BL1P 252]

I would say it was the removal of the bandit skin and morality that was the major proponent of the kill on sight syndrome.

For anyone coming in new to the mod now its very easy for them to get dragged into a feeling of i need to kill first to survive and then they become the thing we hate.

For me the reward of helping an other survivor is allot better than killing him for his gear or out of pure fear. (although I will kill if they are stealing from me)

I have lost count of the amount of times I've been told that I am the first person they have met who didn't shoot them on sight.

I guess that makes me a CareTeddy or what ever you call it :P

If restoring somebody's faith in the gaming communities humanity makes me a careteddy I'm guilty as charged !

[dsi24 227]

The motivations have changed because players have figured out the game, zombies are barely a threat, but finding the best weapons/vehicles/packs/skins is hard if you're just checking loot spots over and over, the best way to get the best stuff is to take it from others. (and they may not have gotten that stuff legitimately either)

[Virfortis 111]

Bandit skin removal did not change how DayZ is played.

It's a combination of a lack of end-game, and an increase in the "typical" gamer brought on by hype. These gamers are indoctrinated with the thought that having a gun means you're supposed to kill everyone. They don't play a game because it's deep, and they skip the entire point of it. They don't think while playing because they have been brainwashed with rails, arenas, and crazed macho pandering hyperbole that stressed anything other than picking up a gun and killing everyone to be "gaaayyy."

The only way to fix this is for the community to band together and re-educate players, but to first do so they must fundamentally alter themselves. This means getting rid of the carebear/elitist argument and enforcing ENJOYMENT of DayZ versus WINNING at DayZ. To top it off, the debug monitor does not help. The debug monitor shows kills, what do you think players want to see go up?

So essentially, to fix the issue:

Debug monitor has to go

Community has to man up

Hype has to die down significantly

OPTIONAL: Make ammo extremely rare, with one mag per weapon drop.

Unfortunately, community changing is all about YOU. It will involve turning the ire away from people you don't nessecarily agree with, and towards those that undermine the critical thinking and desire to "feel" in a game that DayZ was designed for.

[Niblik 1]

Ladder bug got fixed. There was a thread which counted the number of murders per player' date=' and number of bandits vs survivors, and these numbers went up significantly since the bandit skins got removed. Unfortunately this thread got wiped out when forum was reverted from backup.

I have noticed exactly zero difference since the bandit skin was removed

You must have been extremely lucky then, because everyone I've talked to have experienced the same effect as I personally have.

My experience is the same. In the span of around 3-5 days my play experience went from "Friendly?" and teaming up to getting shot without any effort being made to find out if I was aggressive or not.

Hell, I've been shot while asking if the player needed help or if they were low on food. Now I'm forced to avoid everyone just to keep some kid from popping a round in my forehead for lols.

Certainly reduced the fun of the mod for me.