Punishment on death revisited

[Lewf 27]

As the old topic kind of died and no real conclusion was made, I decided I wanted to give this topic another try, this time with all the ideas summarized in my first post for the people that only read he first post then comment. So here it is:

PROBLEM:

As people play the game and learn to survive, they tend to not fear their deaths anymore. When you are fully geared up, you know you will have those tents of yours, so when you die, you can simply go to them and get your gear back. Another way to get your gear back is simply going to your old body which, in many cases, will still be there (as many bandits kill people and don't even have the decency of looting their victims). So I ask you. What is the point of permanent death? This is what made the game so new and exciting for most people, and it has lost its essence as people get geared up in a matter of minutes.

However, what I want to focus more about is the lack of fear of death when you have just spawned. When you spawn, you have pretty much nothing, so what is the problem if you die? NONE I would say. I see people running around the towns (because zombies will never kill someone who has spent more than 1 day in this game as zombies are easily lost) like they don't even care if they die. It is the permanent death concept losing its value! Why should I be careful if in a few seconds i will be back to exactly what i had?

I believe the permanent death is what made this game so different from the Call of Dutys out there. Right now i feel like we are losing it, and we need to get it back! So here are some of the solutions I thought of and gathered from some other topics:

SOLUTIONS:

1 - The timer

The first solution that came to my head and most people hated (and so did I) was to add a timer to relog in the game after you died. This timer would be higher (let's say, but not necessarily, 1 hour) if you died in the first 5 minutes of your life. I had this in mind due to people killing themselves so they could spawn in better places (which removing the respawn button did absolutely nothing to stop) and also so people would be more careful at least in their first minutes of life when they have nothing to lose if they die.

Many problems came with this solution, of course. Let's say you just spawned and an asshole killed you right there in the spawn location. You would have to wait an hour just to log in because of something you couldn't even dodge. Also, what about the new players? Those would be really pissed and in a huge disadvantage by dying in their first few minutes. Not to mention many of us don't have much time to play at all, and wasting our precious times because of a silly mistake or an asshole would be awful. Anyway, this brings us to a next proposal of solution:

2 - The debuffs

What if, when you died too quickly (let's say 15 minutes) you spawned with some problems? Here are some examples:

-Less maximum blood (temporarily)

-Less accuracy

-Making more noise

-Make your character slower

-Less visibility

-More prone to being incapacitated, especially by zombies

-Faster bleeding

Someone in the old topic also posted this:

-"Start with half the blood you would normally start with if you died 3-5 times within an hour?"

This would give you enough incentive to not kill yourself so quickly and not to run around like you don't care about your life and die quickly because you would respawn anyway.

3 - Getting temporarily kicked out

Another suggestion I made was to make your permanent death really permanent by server. Let's say you are fully geared up and die. Today, many would simply run to their bodies (probably respawning many times to get the closest location to where you died) and simply get your stuff back. Now what if, when you died, you wouldn't be able to get into that server again until it restarted (consequently your body would disappear). This is viable today becasue we have around 5000 around, and one can easily find another server to play at. It would also help cut the "killing yourself just so you can respawn" problem, because noone wants to keep changing servers every 5 minutes.

4 - The discriminative timer

An idea thought by Flybynight1:

1. New player >24 hours game time - spawn as per usual

2. Novice >48 hours game time - may spawn XX minutes after death

3. Expert >60 hours of game time - may spawn XXX minutes after death

On the noob problem:

Now many would say: what about the noobs? Then I say: noobs are more careful. They would survive for more than 15 minutes. Take a look at this poll i created:

http://dayzmod.com/f...es/#entry873682

As you can see, more than 70% of noobs (at the time I wrote this) were living more than the first 15 minutes of their play. If you read the comments, you will see that many of the ones who died before their first 15 minutes were due to playing at night (complete darkness) or maybe those who died too quickly even saw something positive in it. It gave them more will to learn to play the game. This game is all about being difficult, being hard to survive, fearing death. A couple months ago many would say Rocket was being sadistic! But look at what the game has become: over 1.2 million players, with a standalone coming out!

Thank you all for reading, if you even read. I hope this goes somewhere with a real solution this time!

Edited September 19, 2012 by Lewf

[Matthias1987 59]

I just keep killing myself, cba spawning in Kamenka.

Btw, this will only work for the standalone, since well, you get the point.

Edited September 19, 2012 by Uni1987

[Lewf 27]

I just keep killing myself, cba spawning in Kamenka.

Btw, this will only work for the standalone, since well, you get the point.

Hacker, hackers and some duping. Yes I get it. I tried to deviate from that, since hopefully that problem wont be there....

And I also keep killing myself, but I think that that shouldn't be a choice

[steve t 32]

I hear what you are saying and agree that death penalty should be a bit more punitive,however, as you also allude to....certain restrictions can be counter productive.

EDIT - For Standalone

It would be great to see balance that is not too punitive on newer players and balances the penalty for more experienced players. Since thinking about your post a bit, I would suggest something along the following lines, by way of a game timer.

1. New player >24 hours game time - spawn as per usual

2. Novice >48 hours game time - may spawn XX minutes after death

3. Expert >60 hours of game time - may spawn XXX minutes after death

What are your thoughts?

Edited September 19, 2012 by Flybynight1

[Lewf 27]

I hear what you are saying and agree that death penalty should be a bit more punitive,however, as you also allude to....certain restrictions can be counter productive.

EDIT - For Standalone

It would be great to see balance that is not too punitive on newer players and balances the penalty for more experienced players. Since thinking about your post a bit, I would suggest something along the following lines, by way of a game timer.

1. New player >24 hours game time - spawn as per usual

2. Novice >48 hours game time - may spawn XX minutes after death

3. Expert >60 hours of game time - may spawn XXX minutes after death

What are your thoughts?

I would say you have my beans, sir! However (and I'm nowhere near a computer expert), I'm not sure if that would be possible.... Maybe for the standalone? That is something being my knowledge of games. But a great idea! Will be adding to my first post.

Edited September 19, 2012 by Lewf

[John Spectre 32]

I hear what you are saying and agree that death penalty should be a bit more punitive,however, as you also allude to....certain restrictions can be counter productive.

EDIT - For Standalone

It would be great to see balance that is not too punitive on newer players and balances the penalty for more experienced players. Since thinking about your post a bit, I would suggest something along the following lines, by way of a game timer.

1. New player >24 hours game time - spawn as per usual

2. Novice >48 hours game time - may spawn XX minutes after death

3. Expert >60 hours of game time - may spawn XXX minutes after death

What are your thoughts?

I say yes, and to hell with everybody and their 'that inhibits my play style!' Yes, it does, and it creates a certain effect in-game. Namely a serious fear of dying, since there are actual concequences to it. Which is (and correct me if I'm wrong) what this game is actually all about. If you want to run around with a (Car/Axe/Machinegun/etc) and do whatever you want whenever you want. go and find another game. Just because its a 'sandbox' doesn't mean the Devs and community don't have artistic liscence to create an environment to encourage a certain play style. Want fast action and instant gratification with limited wait time? Go play CoD.

[Lewf 27]

I say yes, and to hell with everybody and their 'that inhibits my play style!' Yes, it does, and it creates a certain effect in-game. Namely a serious fear of dying, since there are actual concequences to it. Which is (and correct me if I'm wrong) what this game is actually all about. If you want to run around with a (Car/Axe/Machinegun/etc) and do whatever you want whenever you want. go and find another game. Just because its a 'sandbox' doesn't mean the Devs and community don't have artistic liscence to create an environment to encourage a certain play style. Want fast action and instant gratification with limited wait time? Go play CoD.

Agreed 100%! Sandboxes are not necessarily all you want. There are limitations because of the style of the game. You can't play Dayz like its Second Life, because every game has it's own proposal in which you have to play accordingly. The proposal of Dayz (as far as my understanding goes) is to create a scary world in which you have to FIGHT TO SURVIVE and be afraid to die because, once you die, you are PERMANENTLY dead and CANNOT get your stuff back. You must embrace whatever you have been given (your spawn spot, for example) and work with that. Carefully.

[Paddy0610 278]

3 - Getting temporarily kicked out

Another suggestion I made was to make your permanent death really permanent by server. Let's say you are fully geared up and die. Today, many would simply run to their bodies (probably respawning many times to get the closest location to where you died) and simply get your stuff back. Now what if, when you died, you wouldn't be able to get into that server again until it restarted (consequently your body would disappear). This is viable today becasue we have around 5000 around, and one can easily find another server to play at. It would also help cut the "killing yourself just so you can respawn" problem, because noone wants to keep changing servers every 5 minutes.

Then not only 1% Admins would restart at death , it would be 100%. If im paying an Server i want to play when i die then i need to restart. It not an Good solution and only brings Pain > beeing Helpfull

[00dlez 22]

Make gearing up more difficult and it solves the problem without any of these (imho) poor solutions. Losing gear will be penalty enough.

[Lewf 27]

Make gearing up more difficult and it solves the problem without any of these (imho) poor solutions. Losing gear will be penalty enough.

Which does not necessarily solve the real intent of this topic which would be:

Stop intentional respawn and the lack of care for death when you have no itens (or few) to lose.

Edited September 19, 2012 by Lewf

[John Spectre 32]

Then not only 1% Admins would restart at death , it would be 100%. If im paying an Server i want to play when i die then i need to restart. It not an Good solution and only brings Pain > beeing Helpfull

Its not about being helpful, it is about bringing pain.

In order to create that fear of death there has to be actual concequences. Yes casual players will rage quit and rant on forums. They can go play WarZ, (assuming its actually being developed) which seems to be tailor made for DayZ-lite enthusiasts, or casual players who can't handle the shock, disapointment, and anger associated with playing such a risky game. For those who are hard core into 'survival' not death match or easter egg hunt, it could be a truly epic experience.

Rocket, if your out there, please study Eve Online and what they did Wrong. Create the world you want, don't pander to loud complaints of "I won't buy this game" Tonnes of us will, and even more will come out of the wood work to take on this monumental challenge.

Tired of easy games you play through? Want a real challenge? Then prepare yourself for some seroiusly unpleasant moments.

Just my two cents.

[00dlez 22]

Which does not necessarily solve the real intent of this topic which would be:

Stop intentional respawn and the lack of care for death when you have no itens (or few) to lose.

IMO, spawn location is a completly irrelevant part of in game success, if they want to intentionally respawn 6 times to start in Cherno, fine, I'll just run there; it makes zero difference to me.

[Lewf 27]

Its not about being helpful, it is about bringing pain.

In order to create that fear of death there has to be actual concequences. Yes casual players will rage quit and rant on forums. They can go play WarZ, (assuming its actually being developed) which seems to be tailor made for DayZ-lite enthusiasts, or casual players who can't handle the shock, disapointment, and anger associated with playing such a risky game. For those who are hard core into 'survival' not death match or easter egg hunt, it could be a truly epic experience.

Rocket, if your out there, please study Eve Online and what they did Wrong. Create the world you want, don't pander to loud complaints of "I won't buy this game" Tonnes of us will, and even more will come out of the wood work to take on this monumental challenge.

Tired of easy games you play through? Want a real challenge? Then prepare yourself for some seroiusly unpleasant moments.

Just my two cents.

I really hope Rocket either understands people WILL buy a hardcore, difficult and challenging game. In fact, as far as I understand, he doesn't even need that. He is doing it for the pleasure, not the money, and he wants us to have a hard time surviving (again, as far as i understand).

IMO, spawn location is a completely irrelevant part of in game success, if they want to intentionally respawn 6 times to start in Cherno, fine, I'll just run there; it makes zero difference to me.

Let's say you were killed in Gorka, and you spawn in Kamenka. Would you really walk all the way up to Gorka again? I guess not. I mean, I wouldnt, given the circumstances of the game right now. And that's the kidn of problem I'm bringing up here. What people woud do is try to spawn in solnichy (spelled wrong, probably) and run up to their bodies. Now, what i feel shouldn't happened in this occasion is 2 things:

1- People shouldn't be able to respawn with no consequences

2- People shouldn't be able to loot their own bodies (defeats the whole point of the game: permanent death)

[00dlez 22]

1- People shouldn't be able to respawn with no consequences

2- People shouldn't be able to loot their own bodies (defeats the whole point of the game: permanent death)

1- Why not? I think as you answer that question you will come to more real problems with Dayz versus heavy handed spawning restrictions.

2- I'm okay with that, but that doesn't (or at least shouldn't) mean that spawning gets 'nerfed' (not the right word, but i think the point is clear)

[Lewf 27]

1- Why not? I think as you answer that question you will come to more real problems with Dayz versus heavy handed spawning restrictions.

2- I'm okay with that, but that doesn't (or at least shouldn't) mean that spawning gets 'nerfed' (not the right word, but i think the point is clear)

A question for you.... Why would Rocket remove the spawn button? Because he doesn't care if people respawn?

Also, if you read Rocket's interviews and Q&A, you would see that one of his objectives in the game was to make the person lost, to make the player find his way to civilization, not to kill himself until que gets where he wants.

[00dlez 22]

A question for you.... Why would Rocket remove the spawn button? Because he doesn't care if people respawn?

Also, if you read Rocket's interviews and Q&A, you would see that one of his objectives in the game was to make the person lost, to make the player find his way to civilization, not to kill himself until que gets where he wants.

A set of spawn points that are know will fail to be disorienting regardless. It doesn't matter where I spawn now, I know where I am and where I want to go.

There's no difference between spawning where you want and just sprinting there in 15 minutes.

[Lewf 27]

A set of spawn points that are know will fail to be disorienting regardless. It doesn't matter where I spawn now, I know where I am and where I want to go.

There's no difference between spawning where you want and just sprinting there in 15 minutes.

Sometimes it would take much more than 15 minutes. That's why most people (including me) kill themselves

[birdman 108]

I hear what you are saying and agree that death penalty should be a bit more punitive,however, as you also allude to....certain restrictions can be counter productive.

EDIT - For Standalone

It would be great to see balance that is not too punitive on newer players and balances the penalty for more experienced players. Since thinking about your post a bit, I would suggest something along the following lines, by way of a game timer.

1. New player >24 hours game time - spawn as per usual

2. Novice >48 hours game time - may spawn XX minutes after death

3. Expert >60 hours of game time - may spawn XXX minutes after death

What are your thoughts?

How do you mark a n00b from a novice from and expert and so on; by time in the game world, number of kills, time since registration, etc? From a programming point of view.

[Lewf 27]

How do you mark a n00b from a novice from and expert and so on; by time in the game world, number of kills, time since registration, etc? From a programming point of view.

I would say from total time playing, I wouldn't say 24 hours though. 12 hours is more than enough to learn how to play this game.

[birdman 108]

I would say from total time playing, I wouldn't say 24 hours though. 12 hours is more than enough to learn how to play this game.

Sure. Since I'm married with kids and work full time 12 hours is about a week of playing for me.

[CM LEGION 29]

Sorry what is the point of a penalty again?

I don't need tents, or my old body. I just need to memorize my route and where i spawned at.

IE: The feeling of being scared of death when you spawned was organic. All of these will not bring that feeling back, because you will reach a point when you stop giving a fuck. If anything this will cause players to leave "Yeah hey you WOULDVE gotten that guy who shot you, but because a hacker got you earlier you had less health, accuracy and you sucked, so now were making you even weaker! Have fun!" - game

Kinda no point, all of these are just unfun and i'd probably just quit permanently if i had to face any of them multiple times. Maybe use that timer for like "UBER HARDCORE STRAIGHT UP SURVIVAL" difficultly servers.

[Lewf 27]

Sorry what is the point of a penalty again?

The point is to bring back the fear of death, especially at the beggining of your fresh, so people don't go running around like idiots or killing themselves on purpose.

I don't need tents, or my old body. I just need to memorize my route and where i spawned at.

That's exactly my point. It has become too easy for us to run around and get what we want. Because we either get it all too quickly, or we might get sniped, and that shouldn't happen. We should be careful enough to not get easily sniped.

IE: The feeling of being scared of death when you spawned was organic. All of these will not bring that feeling back, because you will reach a point when you stop giving a fuck. If anything this will cause players to leave "Yeah hey you WOULDVE gotten that guy who shot you, but because a hacker got you earlier you had less health, accuracy and you sucked, so now were making you even weaker! Have fun!" - game

Kinda no point, all of these are just unfun and i'd probably just quit permanently if i had to face any of them multiple times. Maybe use that timer for like "UBER HARDCORE STRAIGHT UP SURVIVAL" difficultly servers.

Rage quit? Yeah that's the way to play DayZ.... And remember, we are not putting hackers into the equation, otherwise there is no point in discussing anything in this game, if everything is gonna be like: "What's the point if I die every minute for a hacker?" That's not how we make the game better.

Also, remember my "punishment solutions" apply to those who die too soon, meaning they were definitely not caring if they died or not. I mean, doesn't that defeat the permanent death concept?

Also, if you think my ideas for these problems are so awful, why don't you point out your own? Unless you don;t wanna give up the easiness that this game has become for anyone who plays it for a decent amount of time.

[00dlez 22]

Sometimes it would take much more than 15 minutes. That's why most people (including me) kill themselves

So it's just a time saver versus actually providing some sort of advantage. That being the case, who cares what others do?

I understand Rocket's goals, but just like the people who play alone on locked private hives - it has no effect on me and my experience, let them do it.

[Slartybartfast 76]

Haven't read al the replies so excuse me if I repeat what someone already said;

I think a big step would be that when you die your body will remain where you were killed, but if you die a second time, your first dead body will disappear.. So running franticly towards your dead body could work, but if you die in the process, you're screwed

[Lewf 27]

So it's just a time saver versus actually providing some sort of advantage. That being the case, who cares what others do?

I understand Rocket's goals, but just like the people who play alone on locked private hives - it has no effect on me and my experience, let them do it.

1- That's not what Rocket wants for the game. He doesn't want people exploiting the game's features. For example, I read of a bandit who had a partner, and to get rid of his bandit skin, he transfused tons of blood bags to his friend. That's exploiting the game to make it easier for you. Now, does that affect you directly? No. But does it affect indirectly? Yes. How? What if you are one of those people that kills bandits on sight but give a second thought to survivors? You would make a mistake by letting that guy live. The same thing goes for respawning. Someone who respawns do it for, normally, 2 reasons:

1- Getting to his tents faster

2- Getting to his body faster

(again, this is not necessarily a rule)

How does that affect you? Well, have you thought about all those people sniping in elektro or cherno? It probably decrease by adding something like a greater distance that cannot be easily shortened to their supplies. I mean, what 90% of people do nowadays kill the permanent death concept which, again, was the big differential of this game.