Why is an old wives' tale being used as a game mechanic?

[catgut 3]

Specifically temperature and how it relates to infection. I'm really surprised to see how many times the notion of realism is being brought up in regards to weapons, supplies, teamwork, bandit skins, and just about every other facet of the game, while it seems that getting sick because you stayed out in the rain is taken for granted. This isn't realistic, contrary to what mother always said a normal person won't catch a cold by going outside without his jacket on. And since a DayZ character isn't buck naked and external temperature never drops too low, hypothermia isn't really a concern either. 20C (68F) is comfortably cool in the real world yet a life-threatening concern in-game- huh?

It seems to me that the temperature mechanic is there for added complexity and difficulty, and has no real-world basis for its implementation. Being cold in the rain in the woods is a miserable experience for sure but not a life-threatening one, and it seems very odd for temperature of all things to be a game mechanic, while fatigue is nonexistent and I can sprint for miles uphill if I like. As long as it's not raining. Then I'll get sick.

Is there something I'm missing here?

[Banicks 55]

I think you're delving into it too much.

Are you going to question why we don't have to maintain our weapons with gun grease after x number of shots? Or why we don't get sunburn when we remain outdoors all day?

It's a game feature which I'm sure will be given more attention later when able to be addressed. Realism is the name of the game, but lets not let herpes in just yet.

[artyom 9]

Realism

Zombies

Pick one.

[Lopz 2]

Considering you're in Russia, in the middle of the night, and it's raining, i don't think it's 20C.

Second, i'm not sure if you think the temperature relates to the weather, but it relates to your OWN BODY temperature.

So if you're running 45C or 30C that is a concern.

[underscore 12]

Being out in the cold lowers your body's immune response, so any infection that yoiu might have picked up and would normally fight off will now have a much higher likelihood of successfully attacking you. The average person picks up an amazing amount of shit through contact with other people, it's just that with a normal, healthy immune system we are usually able to fight stuff off without even noticing any ill effects.

They did studies were they froze people in a cold swimming pool. As long as subjects were frozen on an individual, isolated basis, nobody got sick. But, when everybody was dunked into the pool en masse in a group, everybody came down with shit. So, the old wives tale is in practice a reasonable rule of thumb (as usually the case with old wives tales).

Also, we're talking about a game in which morphine instantly heals broken bones. Explain that one and then we'll talk about realism.

[catgut 3]

I think you're delving into it too much.

Are you going to question why we don't have to maintain our weapons with gun grease after x number of shots? Or why we don't get sunburn when we remain outdoors all day?

I tried to make this distinction- there's a difference between things that are realistic but not in the game' date=' and things that are in the game but not realistic. Since there isn't any real-world link between outside temperature and infection, it's a mechanic that's fundamentally unrealistic. So why does it exist? Is it solely to make the game more difficult for an invented reason?

Considering you're in Russia, in the middle of the night, and it's raining, i don't think it's 20C.

Second, i'm not sure if you think the temperature relates to the weather, but it relates to your OWN BODY temperature.

So if you're running 45C or 30C that is a concern.

The daytime temperature is 42C, and the nighttime temperature is 35C. If that's meant to be your body temperature, you are a dead man walking already. 42C is just under 108F, that's more than lethal, and 35C is 95F, right on the other end of the spectrum.

The temperatures are already very weird, but since fluctuations of 10 degrees C are not instantly lethal I can't see how they can be body temperature and not external temperature. Either way, if it's so hot during the day that either internal or external temp is over 40, unless you're in the desert it won't get terribly cold at night. Just because it's an ex-Soviet nation doesn't mean it's hideously cold at night.

[Lopz 2]

I was sure the temperature was body temperature... Can someone confirm it's weather?

[catgut 3]

Being out in the cold lowers your body's immune response' date=' so any infection that yoiu might have picked up and would normally fight off will now have a much higher likelihood of successfully attacking you. The average person picks up an amazing amount of shit through contact with other people, it's just that with a normal, healthy immune system we are usually able to fight stuff off without even noticing any ill effects.

They did studies were they froze people in a cold swimming pool. As long as subjects were frozen on an individual, isolated basis, nobody got sick. But, when everybody was dunked into the pool en masse in a group, everybody came down with shit. So, the old wives tale is in practice a reasonable rule of thumb (as usually the case with old wives tales).

Also, we're talking about a game in which morphine instantly heals broken bones. Explain that one and then we'll talk about realism.

[/quote']

'On the contrary, cold weather appears to stimulate the immune system, according to a study by the Army Research Institute of Environmental Medicine, says Dr. Belilovsky. "Researchers examined the immunological responses to cold exposure and found that acute cold exposure, such as going outside without a jacket, actually appears to activate the immune system." This occurs in part by increasing the levels of circulating norepinephrine, one of the body's hormones, which works as a natural decongestant.'

Hypothermia suppresses the immune system, but the game isn't depicting hypothermia-inducing conditions. There's nowhere in the game where you can go swimming in a bath of ice water.

Again, I have no problem with abstracting 'realism' for the sake of gameplay. I'm wondering why there would be game mechanics that have no reason to be in the game EXCEPT to make it harder. If there were a game mechanic that drinking five cans of soda in a day made you drop dead from caffeine overdose, I don't think people would be defending it, and would correctly point out that it's absurd, unrealistic, and serves no purpose other than to make the game more difficult.

[Banicks 55]

Again, it's in alpha state. If it isn't how they want it, it will be addressed in the future.

In it's current state, it doesn't hinder any sort of gameplay unless your running around swimming in the middle of the night, with the wind blowing a gail and it's raining.

I fully expect there will be an overhaul of this feature to include in-game items. ie: wooly outfit, diving suit etc. North will be colder area so you will want a wooly outfit to remain at an acceptable body temperature in decent conditions. Wear that same outfit down south and you're going to be too hot.

etc etc etc - look im sure the devs will get onto it. Just be patient! :)

[boneboys 7988]

Look...

http://dayzwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Temperature

[Lopz 2]

So, it is indeed body temperature.

[Waken 5]

Exposure isn't an old wives tale

[lexxer 25]

I like the disease concept its just implemented strangely.

Id like to see populated areas...or areas with tons of dead bodies more prone to causing infection and disease.

I see what hes trying to do with the weather it just needs some more thought.

[demazi99 1]

Temperature doesn't exactly has to do with the immune system, but with the fact that most viruses can't reproduct very well at higher temperatures.

When you're sick and you get fever, it is your body increasing the temperature to diminush the amount of virus you have, by stopping them from multiplying, then your immune system can fight.

[Lukio (DayZ) 24]

Yes its kind of simplistic and indeed the sickness should be based on more factors like repeated bleeding, bullet wounds or morphine usage.

Tbh the 42° irritated me in the beginning, now its just another number telling me I'm not cooling down. Of course everyone knows that if your temperature goes above 40° you won't be doing much at all except just sweating and aching. The temperature system of the body is way too complex to just go to 40°+ if you run more than 3 km.

Also the human body does a fantastic job of keeping you alive even in very low temperatures, hypothermia doesn't happen that easily either. Usually its connected to temperature shock or increased exposure to cold.

[underscore 12]

'On the contrary' date=' cold weather appears to stimulate the immune system, according to a study by the Army Research Institute of Environmental Medicine, says Dr. Belilovsky. "Researchers examined the immunological responses to cold exposure and found that acute cold exposure, such as going outside without a jacket, actually appears to activate the immune system." This occurs in part by increasing the levels of circulating norepinephrine, one of the body's hormones, which works as a natural decongestant.'

[/quote']

Interesting. I think I know what they're getting at, and I'm sure to an extent they are 100% correct. Expose the body to any stressful stimulus and it will react appropriately in an attempt to protect itself (see bodybuilding, for example). Of course, the trick is that it's all a question of degree. Look, if exposure to cold - we're not talking hypothermia here - doesn't compromise the immune system then why is the flu season in northern latitudes always during the winter?

[catgut 3]

Again' date=' it's in alpha state. If it isn't how they want it, it will be addressed in the future.

In it's current state, it doesn't hinder any sort of gameplay unless your running around swimming in the middle of the night, with the wind blowing a gail and it's raining.

I fully expect there will be an overhaul of this feature to include in-game items. ie: wooly outfit, diving suit etc. North will be colder area so you will want a wooly outfit to remain at an acceptable body temperature in decent conditions. Wear that same outfit down south and you're going to be too hot.

etc etc etc - look im sure the devs will get onto it. Just be patient! :)

[/quote']

Well, what bugs me is that right now isn't that there is a temperature mechanic, but that temperature's effect is primarily infection, when there are so many factors an order of magnitude more relevant to whether or not you get sick but which aren't being represented in-game.

The screen shaking cold effect is good, but I'm having a hard time thinking of other reasonably realistic ways temperature can be reflected in-game. Chernarus isn't the sort of place that gets cold enough at night to cause injury by exposure/hypothermia/frostbite, so the effects of temperature are largely a matter of personal comfort rather than debilitation.

[Johnnyseven 1]

Interesting. I think I know what they're getting at' date=' and I'm sure to an extent they are 100% correct. Expose the body to any stressful stimulus and it will react appropriately in an attempt to protect itself (see bodybuilding, for example). Of course, the trick is that it's all a question of degree. Look, if exposure to cold - we're not talking hypothermia here - doesn't compromise the immune system then why is the flu season in northern latitudes always during the winter?

[/quote']

Because people tend to remain indoors more and so are in close contact with other people more often. Be that huddled round a fire at home or in your nice warm car with your friends (who were huddled round their nice warm fire at home) on your way to the nice warm pub. Eh, I hope you get my point.

[catgut 3]

Look' date=' if exposure to cold - we're not talking hypothermia here - doesn't compromise the immune system then why is the flu season in northern latitudes always during the winter?

[/quote']

During the winter, people stay inside more. Increased close contact raises transmission rates and people get sick more. In areas where the temperature doesn't change significantly, like equatorial zones, the flu season is during the rainy season as contaminated water spreads infection.

Beat me to it.

[oktyabr 53]

If you live in a temperate clime, go outside at night dressed like your typical "survivor" and try to lie in the grass for 15 min. Better yet try it when it's raining. The weather in the Czech Republic that Chernarus is based on is "very mild". In Prague, at the time of this posting, the forecast calls for rain and a hi/lo temp range of 18C/12C (54F/65F). Closer to the ocean would be miserable; higher in elevation, drier but colder too.

This subject has come up over and over again. Most medical websites disagree with the findings you quote in your last post, specifically the context that it is expressed in. A healthy individual might find the immune system invigorated with a short exposure to a dramatic drop in temperature. Constant exposure is a different thing entirely.

Long exposure to cold weather, being wet and cold, especially if you are already fatigued and malnourished as most DayZ survivors definitely are, will decrease your immune system's defenses against the "common cold", the "flu", walking pneumonia, pulmonary tuberculosis, and all other sorts of maladies. What was said above about high exposure in day to day life to all kinds of bacteria and viruses is also true... our generally healthy condition helps defend us against them to a degree that we are often unaware of what we are exposed to.

Now, consider your typical DayZ survivor. The game takes place in a cooler, semi-temperate climate. The survivors are exposed to cold, wet weather, lack of proper nutrition and medical care, terrible hygiene, filthy drinking water, no working sewage system, and rotting corpses *everywhere*. Without knowing the actual back story it is easy to assume that the "survivors" are those that have already fought off, or are in the process of fighting off, whatever "Z virus" has infected the rest of the populace... In a real world situation like that we would have flea laden rats moving from one moldering corpse strewn area to another and the "common cold" would be the least of our worries.

[underscore 12]

Of course everyone knows that if your temperature goes above 40° you won't be doing much at all except just sweating and aching.

Yarp. Normal body temperature is 37C. In fact' date=' a body temp of 42C is hyperpyrexia and you're literally on death's door. At first I thought it was a case of gross ignorance when I saw that number, but then I realized that it can only mean one thing: [b']we're all infected!

[oktyabr 53]

Interesting. I think I know what they're getting at' date=' and I'm sure to an extent they are 100% correct. Expose the body to any stressful stimulus and it will react appropriately in an attempt to protect itself (see bodybuilding, for example). Of course, the trick is that it's all a question of degree. Look, if exposure to cold - we're not talking hypothermia here - doesn't compromise the immune system then why is the flu season in northern latitudes always during the winter?

[/quote']

Because people tend to remain indoors more, with other people, be that huddled round a fire at home or running to your nice warm car so you can drive to the nice warm pub with your friends. Eh, I hope you get my point.

That and the fact that most flu and "cold" viruses propagate better as absolute humidity falls. In northern climates that means winter which is actually drier than the warmer months. In tropical areas the winter is the "wet season" so bugs tend to spread more easily in the drier summer months.

[Castle (DayZ) 23]

You seem to have misunderstood something. The temperature is your personal temperature, not the temperature around you.

[Johnnyseven 1]

You seem to have misunderstood something. The temperature is your personal temperature' date=' not the temperature around you.

[/quote']

Normal body temperature is 37C. In fact' date=' a body temp of 42C is hyperpyrexia and you're literally on death's door. At first I thought it was a case of gross ignorance when I saw that number, but then I realized that it can only mean one thing: [b']we're all infected!

If it is meant to be personal temperature, its poorly thought out and little more than one more number to annoy you.

[catgut 3]

If you live in a temperate clime' date=' go outside at night dressed like your typical "survivor" and try to lie in the grass for 15 min. Better yet try it when it's raining. The weather in the Czech Republic that Chernarus is based on is "very mild". In Prague, at the time of this posting, the forecast calls for rain and a hi/lo temp range of 18C/12C (54F/65F). Closer to the ocean would be miserable; higher in elevation, drier but colder too.

This subject has come up over and over again. Most medical websites disagree with the findings you quote in your last post, specifically the context that it is expressed in. A healthy individual might find the immune system invigorated with a short exposure to a dramatic drop in temperature. Constant exposure is a different thing entirely.

Long exposure to cold weather, being wet and cold, [b']especially if you are already fatigued and malnourished as most DayZ survivors definitely are, will decrease your immune system's defenses against the "common cold", the "flu", walking pneumonia, pulmonary tuberculosis, and all other sorts of maladies. What was said above about high exposure in day to day life to all kinds of bacteria and viruses is also true... our generally healthy condition helps defend us against them to a degree that we are often unaware of what we are exposed to.

I've seen plenty of literature showing that lower temperature increases inter-person transmission rates of airborne diseases like influenza, but not that lowered external temperature has an adverse effect on the human immune system directly. I'm not calling it BS, but would you mind finding a journal or academic source to back that up?

Now' date=' consider your typical DayZ survivor. The game takes place in a cooler, semi-temperate climate. The survivors are exposed to cold, wet weather, lack of proper nutrition and medical care, terrible hygiene, filthy drinking water, no working sewage system, and rotting corpses *everywhere*. Without knowing the actual back story it is easy to assume that the "survivors" are those that have already fought off, or are in the process of fighting off, whatever "Z virus" has infected the rest of the populace... In a real world situation like that we would have flea laden rats moving from one moldering corpse strewn area to another and the "common cold" would be the least of our worries.[/quote']

I think that's a good argument for an infection system, but it doesn't seem relevant to a temperature mechanic.