Friendly survivor system (hard-coded 'friendliness')

[Sabata (DayZ) 1]

Hi there, I like to dedicate my free time to create mods. None of you probably know them and isn't my intention to promote them either. I just mention it to grab some more attention, heh. Sorry for my English, btw, wish it was my first language or my language skills were better at least.

I noticed Rocket may want to deal with the KoS (kill on sight) issue, after all. It's good decision IMHO because the mod lost an important part of its appeal. Pretending players deal with this in some organized way is errr how to say it, expecting too much.

However my experience tells me that you don't want to fix a leaking pipe with duct tape. Sorry, this is when my arrogant side takes control. I just feel like heartbeats, no gun spawns and other partial solutions won't make a big impact. The KoS loop will find its way and most people won't trust a stranger no matter what. However you'll be wasting your precious time in hit and miss solutions. This is bandit/survivor skins all over again.

Please, go for the root of this problem. Some people will want to kill anything on sight, let them do it, don't try to negotiate some sort of deal like 'kill a bit less, don't fuck the game or I'll fuck you too'. Other people will want to survive and cooperate, offer them a solid game mechanism that makes possible complete trust in other random survivors.

Are both things possible? Yes, but please forget about the freaking 'realism' for a second. Just add selective friendly fire. Once a player sets its status to "friendly", no damage to other friendly players will be possible. If they want to revert to default FF settings (damage anyone), change their skin again and a cool down timer will prevent them to damage friendlies for some minutes.

Yes, it's completely insane, I know, as much as people spawning like magic in a world inside a computer. Wow, a revelation for all the jerks that won't get this. You can't pretend a game world replicates a real like situation perfectly, you have to do meta stuff like this or games will derail as much as this one is doing right now.

Let's say there's a skin that allows such function, and it's easy to find. So players that want to cooperate, or just play a traitor's role safely, can do it now. Note that this isn't a suggestion to make happy 'carebears' but just an arbitrary system to give everyone what they want. I feel like I'm wasting my time, but hey, I'd like to see this mod reaching its full potential in a way or another. Don't see positive signs at the moment.

[hoik 415]

The idea has some merit, but i feel it will detract from the uncertanty and paranoia that is the fun part of interact with strangers in DayZ - it might also lead to "friendly" players simply moeing down anyone who hasn't designated themselves as friendly. Actually the more I think about it the less I like the idea...

[E-Z 25]

thing is i like the idea, and i dont. my soloution is server settings, the game should have these options, 3rd person, cross hairs, but keep it like it is now, want hardcore. join a hardcore server

.

care bear? then join a server with friendly fire disabled etc.

[Sabata (DayZ) 1]

I really don't know why someone would want to gun down this idea as quick as first two replies, even if they partially seem to agree.

What do you fear? Bands of 'carebears' going for bandit hunting maybe? And what's the problem, anything better than shoot on sight.

Think about it twice, you can even grief like a boss. A buddy turns into friendly, approaches other friendlies and convince them to go somewhere, his non-friendly buddies await there and bang! This is the kind of thing that would turn this mod into a proper zombie survival, along much needed fixes and zombie AI improvements.

[liquidje 38]

I don't like it. It is again an artificial mechanic which fucks up play style. How can a bandit backstab someone, if he is forced to use this "friend"-system?

Really, I also would like to see less PvP, but I would really, really hate this system.

And please, PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD stop saying stuff like "Don't tell me about realism in zombie survival anyway", because that's just bullshit, we don't have lasers and aliens and unicorns in it for a reason, and so we can miss other less-realistic elements as well. If you don't understand why that argument is invalid, you are ignorant.

Rocket will never accept this mechanic.

[Sabata (DayZ) 1]

I don't like it. It is again an artificial mechanic which fucks up play style. How can a bandit backstab someone' date=' if he is forced to use this "friend"-system? [/quote']

Having friends that backstab them while you gain other friendlies' trust?

Some of you are very special people, must say. Seems like being a back shooter is a great thing that should be preserved as it is the core gameplay element that makes you play this mod instead some generic shooter.

I actually would do very bad things with the proposed system if I wanted, just not shooting someone while isn't looking at me.

[hoik 415]

I really don't know why someone would want to gun down this idea as quick as first two replies' date=' even if they partially seem to agree.

What do you fear? Bands of 'carebears' going for bandit hunting maybe? And what's the problem, anything better than shoot on sight.

Think about it twice, you can even grief like a boss. A buddy turns into friendly, approaches other friendlies and convince them to go somewhere, his non-friendly buddies await there and bang! This is the kind of thing that would turn this mod into a proper zombie survival, along much needed fixes and zombie AI improvements.

[/quote']

i feel reserved about it because its a bit too obvious a solution that is derived from ingrained (and a bit stale) game mechanics, personally i would like more inovative solutions that are less black and white.

But this system may apeal to some - so I agree with E-Z's suggestion that this (like many debated suggestions) could be implemented in server settings. The more choice the better.

[Sabata (DayZ) 1]

I really don't know why someone would want to gun down this idea as quick as first two replies' date=' even if they partially seem to agree.

What do you fear? Bands of 'carebears' going for bandit hunting maybe? And what's the problem, anything better than shoot on sight.

Think about it twice, you can even grief like a boss. A buddy turns into friendly, approaches other friendlies and convince them to go somewhere, his non-friendly buddies await there and bang! This is the kind of thing that would turn this mod into a proper zombie survival, along much needed fixes and zombie AI improvements.

[/quote']

i feel reserved about it because its a bit too obvious a solution that is derived from ingrained (and a bit stale) game mechanics, personally i would like more inovative solutions that are less black and white.

But this system may apeal to some - so I agree with E-Z's suggestion that this (like many debated suggestions) could be implemented in server settings. The more choice the better.

I may agree with both major objections, it's kinda black and white and imposes some sort of artificial limitation over players. However, do you honestly think there's another solution that is feasible, somehow realistic and going to be widely accepted?

The question for me is adapting dayZ gameplay to what it would/could be the fictional zombie apocalypse cases we know (what most people expect in the end). While I still like this mod I don't wanna close my eyes and ears and pretend everything is going ok or it will be fixed eventually. In-game socializing isn't part of the plans and it probably won't be ever, and that's a big miss IMHO.

[hoik 415]

There needs to be inovation (in the gaming industry in general). Imposing a good guy/bad guy mentality is a simple solution for making socialising safer and easier, but socialising in a zombie apocalypse should be neither one - It isn't a social game.

Now to step off my high horse, i will say in respose to this:

@Sabata

"I may agree with both major objections, it's kinda black and white and imposes some sort of artificial limitation over players. However, do you honestly think there's another solution that is feasible, somehow realistic and going to be widely accepted?"

I do think there is another more "realistic" solution to this problem; what it is and if it will be widely accepted I cannot say.

Here is my (rather belated) attempt: http://dayzmod.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=10295

[Sabata (DayZ) 1]

There needs to be inovation (in the gaming industry in general). Imposing a good guy/bad guy mentality is a simple solution for making socialising safer and easier' date=' but socialising in a zombie apocalypse should be neither one - It isn't a social game.

Now to step off my high horse, i will say in respose to this:

@Sabata

"I may agree with both major objections, it's kinda black and white and imposes some sort of artificial limitation over players. However, do you honestly think there's another solution that is feasible, somehow realistic and going to be widely accepted?"

I do think there is another more "realistic" solution to this problem; what it is and if it will be widely accepted I cannot say.

Here is my (rather belated) attempt: http://dayzmod.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=10295

[/quote']

I feel like your opinions are worth and don't really want to go ramming them like a horde kills a makarov equipped novice walking around for first time.

Loot density/quality feels to me like any (good) idea that tries to fight the excessive P'K issue without really facing its nature. People kill because they can, less loot probably will derive in a situation where differences become huge, like many peasants, makarov equipped players vs less but much better equipped players. Don't get me wrong, makarov guys will kill each other and pro military gun guys will laugh their asses in the process.

I think loot is ok, just we can't replicate reality accurately. People in a zombie holocaust won't want to kill each other for a few tins of beans. Let's make a rational, gamey system that takes this mod into the right way.

---

Ah, regarding socializing. I really think we should have an open mind about this matter. Any dayZ player that is able to team up will tell you this is the right way to play this mod. Socializing in dayZ is key, and people that can't do it simply won't live the full experience.

Then someone will say, go and play with friends. Well, not everybody is a college student/unemployed/whatever with lot of free time in their hands. Even if that's an extremist argument, you may want to play when some of the people you know can't. This mod should really let people play in a different way if they wish, without restricting other players in the process.

[mrducky (DayZ) 33]

Well, those are nice suggestions and all. (I certainly would think a wait time of minutes would be way too long though, some 5-10 seconds or so might be something feasible, as it would still allow a carefully thought out betrayal and such to keep the paranoid mood in the game.

(And make that time out short enough, and you're effectively talking about the old survivor and bandit skins. With an optional switch between the skins with a small delay.) :P

So, even though it would be nice to somehow recognize who might be willing to team up with you (rather than shoot you), but I frankly don't think even those things would change so much, as the root cause to the killing is elsewhere.

The real cause is the boredom. Once you've gained most of the stuff, there is only one fun thing to do, and it is to start killing people. That adds to the secondary cause - which is, that now there are so many bored bandits around shooting at people, that everyone just constantly gets killed and therefore get annoyed/adapt to that - and thus also start shooting everyone on sight as well to ensure their own survival.

The only players you still might encounter in this game, who don't shoot everyone on sight, are the noobs. They are still untainted by the dayz world, naively thinking that they are going to find someone else to coop with and then together keep surviving the zombie apocalypse... Only to get shot on arrival to cherno/elektro (or probably even before that).

Hanging around the south coast, you might still find one of those random noobs to coop with. Too bad, that the coast is also littered with the freshly respawned bandits.

So, frankly, I think there only ways to reduce the DM behavior, would be to give those experienced players (a.k.a. mostly bandits) something interesting to do than to just shoot the players. Alternatively, if that is not possible due to resource constraints, the bandits and the survivors need to be kept a bit more separately (location wise) to allow both styles of play.

[Sabata (DayZ) 1]

Well' date=' those are nice suggestions and all. (I certainly would think a wait time of minutes would be way too long though, some 5-10 seconds or so might be something feasible, as it would still allow a carefully thought out betrayal and such to keep the paranoid mood in the game.

(And make that time out short enough, and you're effectively talking about the old survivor and bandit skins. With an optional switch between the skins with a small delay.) :P

So, even though it would be nice to somehow recognize who might be willing to team up with you (rather than shoot you), but I frankly don't think even those things would change so much, as the root cause to the killing is elsewhere.

The real cause is the boredom. Once you've gained most of the stuff, there is only one fun thing to do, and it is to start killing people. That adds to the secondary cause - which is, that now there are so many bored bandits around shooting at people, that everyone just constantly gets killed and therefore get annoyed/adapt to that - and thus also start shooting everyone on sight as well to ensure their own survival.

The only players you still might encounter in this game, who don't shoot everyone on sight, are the noobs. They are still untainted by the dayz world, naively thinking that they are going to find someone else to coop with and then together keep surviving the zombie apocalypse... Only to get shot on arrival to cherno/elektro (or probably even before that).

Hanging around the south coast, you might still find one of those random noobs to coop with. Too bad, that the coast is also littered with the freshly respawned bandits.

So, frankly, I think there only ways to reduce the DM behavior, would be to give those experienced players (a.k.a. mostly bandits) something interesting to do than to just shoot the players. Alternatively, if that is not possible due to resource constraints, the bandits and the survivors need to be kept a bit more separately (location wise) to allow both styles of play.

[/quote']

The cool down timer to go back normal status may work the way you want. It's mostly a decision that caters teamplay hunting vs lone wolves. A traitor role is cooler when other people does the dirty job. Without teammates to do that, you could let zombies do that job, in very funny ways actually like letting someone be eaten by zombies suddenly, once you gained their trust.

Regarding DM behavior, my opinion about that matter is clear. People go KoS no matter what you try. The fact is even my idea goes around this fact, people will find their ways just it will be way more entertaining (both ways).

[liquidje 38]

I don't like it. It is again an artificial mechanic which fucks up play style. How can a bandit backstab someone' date=' if he is forced to use this "friend"-system? [/quote']

Having friends that backstab them while you gain other friendlies' trust?

Some of you are very special people, must say. Seems like being a back shooter is a great thing that should be preserved as it is the core gameplay element that makes you play this mod instead some generic shooter.

I actually would do very bad things with the proposed system if I wanted, just not shooting someone while isn't looking at me.

Maybe I had to make my point clear. I have yet to commit a murder, and if I did, I would not do it by backstabbing a party member of mine. The problem is, when you group up with someone, it is this notion of (dis)trust which makes the game so much more then the interaction you have with your teammates in "regular" games. I don't like backshooters at all, but simply saying they can't exist because of that is madness.

[Sabata (DayZ) 1]

Hi there, I like to dedicate my free time to create mods. None of you probably know them and isn't my intention to promote them either. I just mention it to grab some more attention, heh. Sorry for my English, btw, wish it was my first language or my language skills were better at least.

I noticed Rocket may want to deal with the KoS (kill on sight) issue, after all. It's good decision IMHO because the mod lost an important part of its appeal. Pretending players deal with this in some organized way is errr how to say it, expecting too much.

However my experience tells me that you don't want to fix a leaking pipe with duct tape. Sorry, this is when my arrogant side takes control. I just feel like heartbeats, no gun spawns and other partial solutions won't make a big impact. The KoS loop will find its way and most people won't trust a stranger no matter what. However you'll be wasting your precious time in hit and miss solutions. This is bandit/survivor skins all over again.

Please, go for the root of this problem. Some people will want to kill anything on sight, let them do it, don't try to negotiate some sort of deal like 'kill a bit less, don't fuck the game or I'll fuck you too'. Other people will want to survive and cooperate, offer them a solid game mechanism that makes possible complete trust in other random survivors.

Are both things possible? Yes, but please forget about the freaking 'realism' for a second. Just add selective friendly fire. Once a player sets its status to "friendly", no damage to other friendly players will be possible. If they want to revert to default FF settings (damage anyone), change their skin again and a cool down timer will prevent them to damage friendlies for some minutes.

Yes, it's completely insane, I know, as much as people spawning like magic in a world inside a computer. Wow, a revelation for all the jerks that won't get this. You can't pretend a game world replicates a real like situation perfectly, you have to do meta stuff like this or games will derail as much as this one is doing right now.

Let's say there's a skin that allows such function, and it's easy to find. So players that want to cooperate, or just play a traitor's role safely, can do it now. Note that this isn't a suggestion to make happy 'carebears' but just an arbitrary system to give everyone what they want. I feel like I'm wasting my time, but hey, I'd like to see this mod reaching its full potential in a way or another. Don't see positive signs at the moment.

[Izo Azlion 3]

So hypothetically, if I have my setting to FF on, and a bandit comes across me who doesn't, and he shoots at me?

What then? I can return fire? Thats already too late, in most engagements he who has the surprise has the spoils.

Interesting, just playing devils advocate. Also, your English is better than 99% of the internet.

[sveinungchr@gmail.com 11]

I think he means.. if some on has a bandint skinn on he can shoot anyone, But people with "friendly" skin can only shoot bandits and not otter players with "friendly" skin on..

Correct me if im wrong.. i kinda like the ide.. but not having the option to kill on sight is something i think i would miss.. not that i kill a lot of players.. None the last week actually...

PS Rocket Pleas remove the smily face when you have high "hummanity". It makes me wanna kill some one just to get a grin or at leas a neutural face there....

[Sabata (DayZ) 1]

The system only deals friendly to friendly gameplay, for the rest is exactly like dayZ works right now. So a 'friendly enabled' just can't damage other friendlies, a non friendly can damage anyone.

[-Tier1- Gilion 0]

Are both things possible? Yes' date=' but please forget about the freaking 'realism' for a second. Just add selective friendly fire. Once a player sets its status to "friendly", no damage to other friendly players will be possible. If they want to revert to default FF settings (damage anyone), change their skin again and a cool down timer will prevent them to damage friendlies for some minutes.

[/quote']

(Note: I presume that your suggestion makes you unkillable by other players when you turn FF off)

So, what you're saying is to make an option to turn this PvPvE game into a singleplayer/coop PvE game? Where other survivors can be spotted but not shot and cant shoot you? This completely breaks the game imo. You can then put on this friendly fire, run to the NW air field, and loot. Get the best gear, and then turn it off again and go around to kill people. The Zs are not at all an issue if you know how to avoid them.

[Izo Azlion 3]

My bad, I misunderstood.

[nomorechillies 11]

enough with trying to make to game force co-operation, let the players decide.

A better idea would be to add big incentives to setup trading posts eg: receive outside contact/supplies from military. Also add buildings you cannot spawn in, but only outside and must walk in, thus making them easier to setup a base etc.

[flyingmonkey (DayZ) 0]

So basically, a game mechanics enforced bandit skin?

Gilion' pid='105219' dateline='1339665571']

(Note: I presume that your suggestion makes you unkillable by other players when you turn FF off)

So' date=' what you're saying is to make an option to turn this PvPvE game into a singleplayer/coop PvE game? Where other survivors can be spotted but not shot and cant shoot you? This completely breaks the game imo. You can then put on this friendly fire, run to the NW air field, and loot. Get the best gear, and then turn it off again and go around to kill people. The Zs are not at all an issue if you know how to avoid them.

[/quote']

From what I gather, you are never invulnerable with FF off, just that you cannot shoot other players with FF off, people with FF on can and will still shoot you, and you shoot them back.

Just adds a bit of force trust to player encounters, allowing groups of players with FF off to cooperate without worry about backstabbers, only bandits with FF on.

[Sabata (DayZ) 1]

Gilion' pid='105219' dateline='1339665571']

Are both things possible? Yes' date=' but please forget about the freaking 'realism' for a second. Just add selective friendly fire. Once a player sets its status to "friendly", no damage to other friendly players will be possible. If they want to revert to default FF settings (damage anyone), change their skin again and a cool down timer will prevent them to damage friendlies for some minutes.

[/quote']

(Note: I presume that your suggestion makes you unkillable by other players when you turn FF off)

So, what you're saying is to make an option to turn this PvPvE game into a singleplayer/coop PvE game? Where other survivors can be spotted but not shot and cant shoot you? This completely breaks the game imo. You can then put on this friendly fire, run to the NW air field, and loot. Get the best gear, and then turn it off again and go around to kill people. The Zs are not at all an issue if you know how to avoid them.

Are you trolling? No, please read it again.

---

So basically' date=' a game mechanics enforced bandit skin?

[/quote']

FFS is so hard to understand? No, no, no please open your mind, re-read it if necessary.

---

enough with trying to make to game force co-operation' date=' let the players decide.

A better idea would be to add big incentives to setup trading posts eg: receive outside contact/supplies from military. Also add buildings you cannot spawn in, but only outside and must walk in, thus making them easier to setup a base etc.

[/quote']

-.- This is exactly THE SYSTEM to let people decide what they want to do. No one forces you to play in 'friendly mode' if you don't want to. Or are you from that party that decides everyone should kill on sight?

[flyingmonkey (DayZ) 0]

So basically' date=' a game mechanics enforced bandit skin?

[/quote']

FFS is so hard to understand? No, no, no please open your mind, re-read it if necessary.

Don't get me wrong, I get what your idea is down to the dot, just seems like you are forcing something that should be organic.

People should be able to just up and backstab their entire group that they have worked to gain their trust, it's part of the game.

Having to change to FF on to do that is just going to get you shot by the group as soon as you do it. That's where the forced part comes from.

[Brewcat 3]

I understand what you mean, and I think it's worth a try.

There's no way to really know if someone is friendly/bandit, but your idea might go some way to bringing down the number of PVP kills that don't need to happen.

[Keurk 4]

a complete imaginary unniverse can be very realistic. The fact it's a zombie apocalypse mod can still be pretty realistic.