Let me paint you a picture of DayZ game mechanics.

[MrBrown (DayZ) 26]

Good arguments why the return of bandit skins was a good first step and why we need more mechanics to encourage cooperation.

[SillySil 295]

You forgot the part where it takes hours for everyone to gather said "powerups" and also the fact that you can share your powerups with other players, dumbass.

Why does it matter how many hours it takes to get it? And it doesn't say anywhere that you can't share them does it dumbass?

[Vanz0r 16]

In DayZ everyone dies.

qft

[hawc 63]

In those 3 cases it's self-defence as there might be weapons in the town/city. I was refering to shooting newspawns on the coast who are of absolutely no threat to you and snipers just shooting every f*cking thing that moves.

I'm not dictating others, I just can't stand those kind of players. You can do whatever you want to whoever you want, even if it comes to enjoy shooting unarmed players. You're just a bad, bad person if you do so.

How do you know he is a new player? he could have a pistol in his backpack or an axe on his toolbelt. We've seen stories of players doing exactly that.

Well if someone really goes along the coast shooting new people i agree, he is a bad person(But such person probably doesn't exist). But elektro and cherno are high risk/high reward.

You forgot the part where it takes hours for everyone to gather said "powerups" and also the fact that you can share your powerups with other players, dumbass.

Well sorry carebear but one of the game features is perma death. Gathering gear is the whole point of the game, otherwise it's just a fps(like cod).

[Hershel Green 46]

I play Dayz for a couple of weeks now and got killed only twice. I am a regulair visitor of Cherno, Elektro, Stary etc All the major cities and can get out very easy without being murdered. As the Zeds are just a slight pain in the ass in this game pussy bandits make this game playable for me. They give the game extra difficulty, not that much because most bandits are as dumb as the zombies are so just a funfactor. I've only murdered once and that was one of my squad (LOL) took him for a zed :-). If you are smart and play stealth, bandits shouldn't be that hard. For instance most bandits can be fooled by taking a zed skin camoclothes and just crawl like a zed (leave your backpack and setup tent near major cities.) through cities. Whole lot of fun when they don't pay attention and finaly you can just go past them without them notice you. That feels like a victory for me thinking the poor little bastard is camping and just waits and waits for someone too pass.

So just make the best of it. Bandits are here to stay so be the smarter one.

[SillySil 295]

Good arguments why the return of bandit skins was a good first step and why we need more mechanics to encourage cooperation.

I think the bandit skin shows that devs don't want the game to be FFA DM but I also think that bandit skins are wrong way of doing it. Bandit skin isn't a reason not to kill people. It doesn't have any influence on people who already KoS. They already consider everyone a threat.

[bazbake 456]

Bandit skins are for people who don't KoS to have a reason not to. Same with hero skins. Bandits can do whatever they want, but now people know they're bandits. Apparently banditry is going down, so the skins are working.

[SillySil 295]

Bandit skins are for people who don't KoS to have a reason not to. Same with hero skins. Bandits can do whatever they want, but now people know they're bandits. Apparently banditry is going down, so the skins are working.

Everything is going down because number of players dropped.

And I consider it approaching from wrong direction that skins are for people who don't KoS instead of influencing people who KoS.

[daze23 549]

Bandit skins are for people who don't KoS to have a reason not to. Same with hero skins. Bandits can do whatever they want, but now people know they're bandits. Apparently banditry is going down, so the skins are working.

the system seems bugged now. every time I enter a game, I have the bandit skin. then a few minutes later it switches to the 'normal' skin (and usually scares the fuck out of me as it switches to 1st person)

[zak757 146]

Imagine a big board with hexagon tiles, maybe something like that.

Example picture not Battletech? I am disappoint.

[SillySil 295]

Example picture not Battletech? I am disappoint

Lemme fix that.

[dillon (DayZ) 3]

Great thread Sil.

I agree with you wholeheartedly about the idiocy of expecting people to have real moral crisis' when killing in a video game.

The current alpha leaves much to be desired and I hope that in the standalone they will add content which will require players to work together (I'd like to see power plants and more base building).

The addition of bandit skins seems to indicate that the developers agree with you. I agree that their implementation is flawed and does little to prevent killing.

I also feel that out of game chat clients add to the problem as all groups I have played with will KoS anyone not on teamspeak. I would like to see external voice chat clients restricted (somehow) in the standalone and direct chat combined with radios (ACRE?) added. This would add to the immersiveness of the experience and prevent the "everyone do the friendly dance! boom, headshot!" that I see a lot of.

[bazbake 456]

Everything is going down because number of players dropped.

And I consider it approaching from wrong direction that skins are for people who don't KoS instead of influencing people who KoS.

Why? You think bandit skins should be a reward system for being extra bandity to help you bandit your banditry to the banditest?

[風.かぜ 2]

What would you do in the board game once you've got max level on all powerups?

Uh.. I don't know.. help out the newer players and teach them about how to get better at the game? That's the thing, it's never what actually happens but the principle. Someone who knows all the tricks and tips that helps out newer players I'd label a teacher or good person. Someone who likes the cheap thrill of taking advantage of those other players I'd call a scum or bad person. I guess it's all just a matter of opinion.

But don't get me wrong, I think the PvP part of the game is great. It's just I don't look at the bandits who snipe fresh spawns and respond to friendly calls then shoot them in the face in a favorable light.

Edited September 11, 2012 by 風.かぜ

[Delta Smoke 01 765]

Proud of you guys for not instantly saying "Powerups? Go back to wow blah blah". OP makes an excellent example of comparison here. Bottom line being, its a game of skill and wit. Failure results in death and loss. Success results in life and reward :)

Btw i remember a game with hexagons as a map and figures to represent players. What was that ? PSX game or something lol ?

[omgwtfbbq (DayZ) 1069]

The problem is that what you described is what rocket is trying to overcome. He's trying to defeat the whole "it's just a game" mentality. And I'm all for his ideas.

Edited September 11, 2012 by omgwtfbbq

[SillySil 295]

Why? You think bandit skins should be a reward system for being extra bandity to help you bandit your banditry to the banditest?

nononono I think there should be something instead of bandit skin system. Something negative for killing people. To give banditry a trade off. Because right now (to the person doing the killing) it only has advantages and no disadvantages. If someone isn't roleplaying and considers this a game (therefore RL morals don't apply) he has no reason not to shoot people.

The problem is that what you described is what rocket is trying to overcome. He's trying to defeat the whole "it's just a game" mentality. And I'm all for his ideas.

2 things.

1 I can appreciate roleplaying. However if roleplaying would put me at a disadvantage then I choose not to do it. And I think I'm not the only one.

2 You can make a game as roleplay friendly as possible but it's still people's choice to roleplay. You can't force them. And because of that it's a bit naive to count on people to follow some kind of morality. If you want morality to be a factor in a video game you need to put something in it's place. You can't just count on people to do that by themselves, especially if it puts them at a disadvantage.

If this is what you've meant.

Edited September 11, 2012 by SillySil

[DeadShaun 25]

I don't have a problem with bandits, they are part of the game after all, what I do have a problem with is when they kill fresh spawns for no other reason than to get their jollies off and annoy the other player (your being a dick), the other thing that annoys me is the excuse of people for kos, it's easier to get gear, bull!!!, anyone can get the things to survive easily without resorting to killing players, I have the equipment to survive and protect myself if need be and i've only had to kill a few zeds.

[ZexXx 1]

Agree to a point.

It's ok if someone wants to be a dick and frankly? if you watch AMC the walking dead that happens all the time as you would expect in those kind of conditions.

I guess the main gripe ppl have is that in DayZ that appears to be 100% of the time.

I know it's not true since I've seen videos of people helping people and I myself have not shot anyone.

BUT the few encounters I did have ended up in me getting shot and mostly when I didn't have any gear on me... so that's plain dick I can't even rationalize why they shot me.

I would love to the game to have more "point" though.

My main objective right now is getting good gear and kill Z's, all I do.

[SillySil 295]

I don't have a problem with bandits, they are part of the game after all, what I do have a problem with is when they kill fresh spawns for no other reason than to get their jollies off and annoy the other player (your being a dick), the other thing that annoys me is the excuse of people for kos, it's easier to get gear, bull!!!, anyone can get the things to survive easily without resorting to killing players, I have the equipment to survive and protect myself if need be and i've only had to kill a few zeds.

It is easier to get loot if you kill on sight. Not only you don't loose it as often because you eliminate threats but you also don't need to scavenge for the loot yourself.

What's easier, venture all the way to stary or spend hours walking around deerstands or shoot some guy who has already been to stary/deerstands who's walking up to me and saying "friendly dude" in the face and take his shit?

Agree to a point.

It's ok if someone wants to be a dick and frankly? if you watch AMC the walking dead that happens all the time as you would expect in those kind of conditions.

I guess the main gripe ppl have is that in DayZ that appears to be 100% of the time.

I know it's not true since I've seen videos of people helping people and I myself have not shot anyone.

BUT the few encounters I did have ended up in me getting shot and mostly when I didn't have any gear on me... so that's plain dick I can't even rationalize why they shot me.

I would love to the game to have more "point" though.

My main objective right now is getting good gear and kill Z's, all I do.

Because there is absolutely nothing to loose. You can do that just in case.

Edited September 11, 2012 by SillySil

[DeadShaun 25]

It is easier to get loot if you kill on sight. Not only you don't loose it as often because you eliminate threats but you also don't need to scavenge for the loot yourself.

What's easier, venture all the way to stary or spend hours walking around deerstands or shoot some guy who has already been to stary/deerstands who's walking up to me and saying "friendly dude" in the face and take his shit?

Because there is absolutely nothing to loose. You can do that just in case.

First off to kill someone and take their gear, you would already have had to loot somewhere, which means you will have collected a weapon and other gear to survive, what you are talking about is getting higher grade military weapons so that you can kill people, because that's what you want to do, not what you have to do. What's easier, me looting and getting the gear I need to survive or looting and then looting again by killing someone for even better gear!

Then again what's easier, looting someone's tent and getting good gear without killing anyone or looting to find a weapon and then killing someone to get more/better gear? I don't need to travel to stary or the airfields or kill anyone who has been there, because I simply don't need the better gear they have to survive.

[tet5uo (DayZ) 22]

What would you do in the board game once you've got max level on all powerups?

I'll find a new board-game then, cause this one is badly designed.

[cultiv8ed 0]

I'll find a new board-game then, cause this one is badly designed.

Exactly, so what we can take from this is that DayZ as a board game does not have enough rules to keep it interesting.

[FreshmeatDK 22]

First off, I think this is one of the most intelligent arguments why banditry exists I have seen. Why is game design always obvious when you get it explained? The analogy might have a few rough points, but why not try to address the points made for suggestions to improve the game.

First problem: An unaware player is an easy source of every kind of resource you want. An aware player turns you into an unaware player the second you take your sights off him.

My proposal would be to introduce a lot more uncertainty into firefights. With extremely few exceptions, players should never be certain that first shot was a decisive factor, and every bullet should have a healthy potential to incapacitate a player. From the lowliest Makarov to the .50 rifle. Then every firefight would have a fair chance of putting you into disadvantage, even if you got first shot.

Another point would be a possibility of shouldering your long gun, making it significantly more time-consuming to get it into action. And holstering your sidearm, but making it quick to draw. This would lead to more close betrayals done with handguns, making the outcome less certain (see above).

Second problem: With hunting, it is quite to easy to get self-healed. Thus, if you get hurt, you tend to isolate instead of seeking help.

Solution: Every major source of healing should come from other players, forcing you to rely on them. It should take easy to get resources for healing, but requiring cooperation to use them. It could be as simple as enforcing a restriction on the amount you can eat, rename the blood bags to something plausible and scatter them everywhere.

Third problem: Weak zombies guard important resources, all of which can be carried away by players.

This is an interesting dilemma. We need to make the zombies strong enough to represent a real threat, and further a threat that is more easily overcome in groups. In the current state of the game, I can as easily loot a spot myself by sneaking in instead of teaming up. If I arouse a zombie, a few rounds of .45 ACP ends the discussion, usually without waking the entire neighborhood. On the other hand, if getting those resources from the zombies are to difficult, it is easier to turn into banditry.

My proposal would be to have much stronger zombies guarding geographically fixed resources. It would be a lot more interesting to run vehicles if you had to fill it up entirely at the gas stand, with no jerrycans. Then you would have to fight off zombies while doing it. I think more resources should be similar, forcing cooperation. A hospital could have high grade medical equipment for advanced treatment. See below for another example.

Fourth problem: No cooperative long-term goals. A few lucky groups have choppers, but most people reach the pinnacle of their gear in a few days. I have a hidden tent, a sniper rifle, a couple of assault rifles and handguns, and loads of medical supplies and food. While I might start a likely unsuccessful search for an ATV, I cannot achieve more in DayZ, and the move that has the most positive influence on my status is playing Minecraft instead.

One proposal would be to include a lot more vehicles requiring a whole lot more of maintenance. Imagine having to fix car in a repair shop while zombies are approaching. One guy mans the generator, one does the actual job, and two others needed to guard against the approaching horde. If cars where common, they would not have to worry about stealing the other guys cars, because everyone brought theirs.

Another proposal are fortifications. I think these would be great, especially if you could deny zombie spawning inside the fortifications as long as they where manned. Then people could make safe zones that would need guards, but everyone else could put away their weapons and ease the tensions a bit. The downside is that every firestation and barrack in the game would be fortified; but if everyone could pass the fortifications, this would matter less. Barbed wire is a good idea, if it worked as a slowdown, not a block.

Fifth problem: No persistent identity. This is the major reason for trolls all over the net. They can abuse other people behind their anonymity. And although you have a persistent account in DayZ, you have thousands of servers to pick from.

I think the bandit system goes quite some way there, but it is far from finished. And while an argument against it is that people with different morals IRL does not have a sign saying so, we would have a much smaller group of survivors IRL, and word gets around.

This would of course slant the gain towards cooperation instead of KoS, but I think bandits would still be able to make a fine living by sniping others and taking their resources. It would just be easier to see the profits of moving in groups, and especially downplay the dangers of meeting strangers.

[SillySil 295]

First off to kill someone and take their gear, you would already have had to loot somewhere, which means you will have collected a weapon and other gear to survive, what you are talking about is getting higher grade military weapons so that you can kill people, because that's what you want to do, not what you have to do. What's easier, me looting and getting the gear I need to survive or looting and then looting again by killing someone for even better gear!

Then again what's easier, looting someone's tent and getting good gear without killing anyone or looting to find a weapon and then killing someone to get more/better gear? I don't need to travel to stary or the airfields or kill anyone who has been there, because I simply don't need the better gear they have to survive.

If you don't have better gear then you put yourself at a disadvantage compared to people who do have it. That's the game mechanic. You can choose not do follow game mechanics but they still influence you.

And it is easier to just take an enfield kill someone who already has good gear and take it instead of going all the way to stary/nwaf to get it yourself.

Edited September 11, 2012 by SillySil