@Devs/forum staff. Scripting and the future of Dayz

[RaysGoodLiquor 93]

I'm not writing this to cry about hacking. The current state of the game and community has encouraged me to stop playing for a while, and this is just an observation I have made that I think would benefit the future of the game.

I don't need to tell you about the hacking problem. If you've played the game for more than a week, and have refrained from using scripts yourself, you already know how bad it is. I've already read everyone public statement Rocket about the game at least twice, so I understand where editing the engine and/or replacing BattleEye with an anti-cheat system that actually works would cost more in labor than what it is worth to the developers. It's a business, I understand, and that's not my beef. With anti-cheat measures about as effective as a 50lb bouncer, there has been a huge influx of "QQ Hacker" threads scattered throughout this site's various forums. This is a natural response from a dissatisfied customer, but I feel that the way the threads are being handled by staff is further contributing to the problem. When an obviously new player hits the forums to let you guys know how unhappy he or she is with the developers efforts to stop scripting, they are met with the standard response, "This has been addressed, we can't and aren't going to do anything about it, we promise that when you pay us for the standalone version we will fix everything, and thread locked.

As a prior professional forum moderator and eventually administrator (professional as in I got paid to do it), I completely understand the need to "clean up" the forums to prevent 15 threads on the front page all discussing the same thing, but very few of the threads I'm seeing are open discussions as much as an outright complaint directed towards the development team. Why is this a big deal?

1) Scripting, and the excessive rare loot still circulating in the game's "item economy" has made the game unplayable for a lot of people. If you've been able to be one of the lucky ones that have played for 500 hours and never ran into a hacker (I call bullshit on this one), you must at least agree that loot balance is totally screwed up thanks to AS50 Thermals being about as easy to find as a Lee Enfield.

2) The problem is serious enough that the company, as well as personal pages from developers (like twitter) are getting bombed with feedback about it. When your customer base gets desperate for progress and is met with, "we can't do anything about it," that player quickly loses his faith in the company. With the massively over-hyped blockbuster titles of the last couple years turning out to be taking steps backwards in the realm of game development, creativity, customer support, and game code integrity, customers are getting extremely skittish about throwing their hard earned money at games that don't show support above and beyond the trash gamers have been subjected to by larger companies.

Long story short, I believe that the standard response of your hands being tied is making people think that the standalone will be a slightly more polished version of what we have already, and only that. It appears that the biggest priorities for the community is scripting and game breaking bugs (tent/vehicle saving, artifacting, humanity glitches causing skin changes in the middle of a firefight, etc.). These are also the two issues that the devs have dropped the ball on the hardest, with hackers being apparently impossible to minimize, and patches designed to fix bugs that ultimately make them worse. When I got the news that DayZ was going standalone, the first thing I wanted to know was where could I preorder it, but with the way things have been handled as I stated above, I'm going to give the game a long time to be property reviewed by the community before I make the decision to purchase. I'm terrified that this is going to be another Diablo 3.

I recognize that this post would be pointless without suggestions on how to fix it, so here we go.

1) Make a sticky post in general discussion for people to bitch about hacking. I recognize this can be a bad business idea, because new players doing research on the game will be immediately greeted with a "we have a hacking problem" billboard, but it's still far better than telling a complaining customer that you can't do anything about it. You can still lock random QQ threads, but your customers will appreciate a link to the appropriate are to post as opposed to telling them to learn how to use the search function and leaving them to their own devices.

2) Take the leash off the server admins and let them do their jobs. They are literally the only thing standing between the legitimate players and scripters, especially when our anti-cheat system feels like armor made out of wet toilet paper. The basis of proof for a Rocket sanctioned ban is rediculous and unwarranted in a game so plagued with cheaters.

3) Encourage private hives. These are the last servers left that have any reasonable control over their servers and what goes down on them. Private hives can utilize more extensive anti-cheat measures and deal with hacking nearly immediately. It seems like a lot of private hives are run by clans as well, and the general in game community problems are much less sporadic.

4) Shut down the public hive, thus forcing players to private hives until the standalone. It ties into #3, and it also eliminates the threat of ghosting, server hopping snipers, server hopping loot/vehicle campers, and gearing up on a totally empty server just to switch to a high pop server with gear you wouldn't have been able to get nearly as easily with other players in the server. This also means that servers that have inactive admin will be plagued with scripted items, but servers that are run by decent admin won't have to worry about someone going on X unmonitored server to spawn all their shit in, and then switch to the monitored server. If you can't move character saves between servers, the hackers on server X won't affect the gameplay of people on server Y, meaning that a handful of hackers can't ruin every server on the queue list at their leisure.

5) If you are going to focus on the standalone, consider shutting down DayZ support all together. This is an alpha, and while you guys use it for game testing, the community uses it to get a good idea of what they are about to spend money on. If you quietly abandon the mod, players are going to get a horrible experience while testing and never consider buying the game (Battlefield 3 anyone?). Don't cut your nose off to spite your face.

All of these solutions are far better than any efforts I've seen so far on the dev teams part, but don't take that as me suggesting that you guys aren't concerned. I want to see DayZ succeed, but there is some sort of collapse going on right now. The rewards for cheating right now greatly outnumber the risks, and when the community's complaints are met with a shrug of the shoulders, we either give in and start scripting, or lose faith in your ability to control your game, and just move on to something else. You guys develop PC games, and coming from a guy who starting gaming long before consoles even imagine being connected to the internet, that's a big deal. For that very reason, I have much higher expectations from you than the crooks over at Activision/EA/etc, and I always will for developers that focus on the PC platform. Rethink your approach to dealing with the community to better inspire hope for an awesome standalone, as opposed to making us think that you guys don't care, don't know what you're doing, or have better things to do.

Please take my suggestions into consideration, and thank you for your time.

RaysGoodLiquor

TL;DR: just respond with TL;DR and move on.

Edit: It's 3am here and I don't have any juice left to fix my grammatical/spelling errors. If you can't read it, let me know and I'll revise it tomorrow.

Edited August 30, 2012 by RaysGoodLiquor

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

I read your post and it's well thought out. I won't respond directly to you points about the development, that's not for me to do. It's refreshing to see a post addressing these points without the typical whining.

If there's one thing many of us have in common it's that we all want to see the end result that a game like this deserves. The devs have a massive challenge here, it's a pretty unique situation and it'll be interesting to see it develop. I still have plenty of faith that Rocket and the other devs are the right people for the job, they are under a lot of pressure right now and have a big project on their hands. It's inevitable that they can't continue to communicate on the forum's as frequently as they used to. I've watched /read most of the interviews/articles regarding the future of DayZ and I remain optimistic. It's going to be a bumpy ride.

[RaysGoodLiquor 93]

Thanks for the fast and constructive response. I agree that Rocket's team has the correct vision for the game, but the duality between a broken, sometimes unplayable mod and a "holy grail" of sorts standalone release is making the team cut their nose off to spite their face. Keeping the alpha on the market with so many issues can be detrimental to the standalone release.

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

I see your point. The plan is to keep the mod running as a separate project, eventually opening it up to other modders. With the reputation some of the Arma modders have I find that as exciting as the prospect of a standalone version of DayZ. For me it's a win-win situation. We get a finished version of DayZ (eventually) plus a thriving mod community all able to throw their own ideas onto the pile. The good ideas can then be adopted into the standalone.

It's going to be a frustrating process for people that want to see a finished game right now but in terms of general game development it's actually moving pretty quickly.

Edited August 30, 2012 by Fraggle

[doom4mr 135]

I think that global hive is a one of the most important features of DayZ, even when its the reason for 1/3 of the problems of DayZ.

I think that Devs working on better hive system for the standalone.

Hacking is a real problem in DayZ, we all know why, I was thinking about some kind of player DB that will communicate with hive and authorize access to servers.

or locked servers with forums to authorize players.

for example: lets say server de 13245 this server will have forum with registered users and each time they visit some page that is blocked for members only they will get Cookie or something which will have the key to login to the server, then when player login to server, it will check for cookie and if it exist with the right code it will allow access to server.

this sound futuristic but maybe its possible.

[Dancing.Russian.Man 1631]

Inb4 hundreds of TL;DR posts and idiotic arguments.

I agree with the OP wholeheartedly.

It's a well-written post and I can't really debunk any of it without being a hypocrite or an idiot. (And I'm supposed to be GOOD at debunking stuff.)

[RaysGoodLiquor 93]

I'm very excited to hear that the mod will eventually be, more or less, handed over to the mod community as a whole. I agree that understaffing contributes to the lack of developer feedback, but I would be willing to bet that anyone that has played this game and knows anything about coding would be willing to contribute to make the mod better. Without a dedicated dev team, this may be the only route to keep it alive, especially beyond standalone release.

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

Inb4 hundreds of TL;DR posts and idiotic arguments.

I agree with the OP wholeheartedly.

It's a well-written post and I can't really debunk any of it without being a hypocrite or an idiot. (And I'm supposed to be GOOD at debunking stuff.)

Ssshhhh..... I don't think they've got out of bed yet.

[grezvany13 56]

First of all, great topic and finally someone who really thought about the problem and giving some ideas for a solution.

But, this wouldn't be a forum if we couldn't discus about them, so here are my thought about your ideas.

1) Make a sticky post in general discussion for people to bitch about hacking. I recognize this can be a bad business idea, because new players doing research on the game will be immediately greeted with a "we have a hacking problem" billboard, but it's still far better than telling a complaining customer that you can't do anything about it. You can still lock random QQ threads, but your customers will appreciate a link to the appropriate are to post as opposed to telling them to learn how to use the search function and leaving them to their own devices.

I totally support this!

Not only will it clean up the forums (no hundreds of threads without any content), but it also will be a good indication of "how bad" it is.

The problem with "hacking billboard" is in my opinion less then the current situation, so this will be a good idea.

2) Take the leash off the server admins and let them do their jobs. They are literally the only thing standing between the legitimate players and scripters, especially when our anti-cheat system feels like armor made out of wet toilet paper. The basis of proof for a Rocket sanctioned ban is rediculous and unwarranted in a game so plagued with cheaters.

Yes and no. I agree that server admins should be able to do more against hackers and cheaters, but to prevent admin-abuse this should be indirect.

My suggestion would be to create a server admin portal where they can send a ban request (with proof), which will be reviewed by other admins (and some people from the dev team) to determine the final action.

This also could help BattlEye to improve their anti-cheat, and help the devs to track the hackers/cheaters so it won't be possible at a later stage.

The last thing I would want to see is total freedom for server admins to kick/ban survivors just because they want to, so those should still be kicked of the HIVE when it happens.

3) Encourage private hives. These are the last servers left that have any reasonable control over their servers and what goes down on them. Private hives can utilize more extensive anti-cheat measures and deal with hacking nearly immediately. It seems like a lot of private hives are run by clans as well, and the general in game community problems are much less sporadic.

I wouldn't encourage them, nor support them, but do allow them by providing the server files to the public.

This way you can create a private HIVE, or if you want, request access to the public HIVE.

As for the anti-cheat measures; these are exactly the same, although since private HIVES are less interesting for hackers you won't find them. And when someone is hacking, they're banned instantly from that HIVE, instead of going though a lot of paperwork. The community ban lists are great and also work on public servers, so there's not a lot of difference between them.

4) Shut down the public hive, thus forcing players to private hives until the standalone. It ties into #3, and it also eliminates the threat of ghosting, server hopping snipers, server hopping loot/vehicle campers, and gearing up on a totally empty server just to switch to a high pop server with gear you wouldn't have been able to get nearly as easily with other players in the server. This also means that servers that have inactive admin will be plagued with scripted items, but servers that are run by decent admin won't have to worry about someone going on X unmonitored server to spawn all their shit in, and then switch to the monitored server. If you can't move character saves between servers, the hackers on server X won't affect the gameplay of people on server Y, meaning that a handful of hackers can't ruin every server on the queue list at their leisure.

Basically the same answer as #3, release the server files to the public and let server admins decide for themselfs.

Personally I prefer playing on public HIVE servers, instead of private ones. Simply because I can go to another server without loosing gear, when my main server is down or full.

5) If you are going to focus on the standalone, consider shutting down DayZ support all together. This is an alpha, and while you guys use it for game testing, the community uses it to get a good idea of what they are about to spend money on. If you quietly abandon the mod, players are going to get a horrible experience while testing and never consider buying the game (Battlefield 3 anyone?). Don't cut your nose off to spite your face.

This is more a communication problem; as where we expect something (which has been announced), but isn't coming, nor more information about any expected release data (v1.7.3)

The only solution to this would be a good and solid PR team which releases news and information when they can, not when someone likes.

No hard feelings for Rocket, but as a programmer you can't predict when your product is ready, especially during development.

I'm sure that the standalone version, with proper backup of BI, won't have the problems as we have now with the mod. So all we can do now is hope that Rocket and the devs will do their best to please both us during this alpha and those who buy and play the standalone game.

[RaysGoodLiquor 93]

Wow, I'm so used to getting responses like "GTFO shitheel, Rocket said it's ok for me to use a thermal AS50 as long as I wasn't the one who scripted it in!" I should have addressed this in the post as well, because the mentality that using scripted items is acceptable simply because it isn't a bannable offense is a cancer to this community. This mentality leads to one scripter providing items for an entire group/clan, and although none of the recipients can be globally banned, the exact same negative effects are felt in game.

@Grez, I completely agree with your critiques, as I only meant for those suggestions to be potential short term solutions until a more organized solution can be presented. I see the current state of the game to be, well, in distress. Sometimes you have to stick your thumb in the bullet hole until the corpsman has time to come see you. It's not going to magically heal your wound, but it will keep you alive long enough to receive real medical attention.

Edited August 30, 2012 by RaysGoodLiquor

[grezvany13 56]

Sometimes you have to stick your thumb in the bullet hole until the corpsman has time to come see you. It's not going to magically heal your wound, but it will keep you alive long enough to receive real medical attention.

I love that quote, but when you got shot by a .50 cal your thumb won't help you ;) And the current amount of hacker reports becomes that .50 cal.

In the end, we still have to wait till the real fix is released and all they can do now is try to minimize the damage. However, they can do this by applying a tourniquet (to keep the medical terms) but this won't fix anything, it only restricts even more (see the current "anti ALT+F4" bug).

My suggestion would be to give better training (handbook?) and equipment (server tools?) to those who run the servers, instead of punishing the players by restrictions.

But we all agree that something needs to be done before this great projects dies a painful death. Hopefully Rocket and the devs will read this thread and do something with it.

[d4nny 8]

Damn good post!

Without going off-topic here, i just wanted to explain something about why our community has survived 10 years of gaming through numourous games and waves of hackers, it's because we care about the games we host and also about the community members we have following us.

Dayz seems to have hit a nerve with a good portion of our members and as such, most nights we have between 5-15 members in our TS channel, which is growing rapidly.

We have all been at the end of a hacker's fun, and we all know how it feels to be raped of kit but we are all aware that it can happen, and will happen again so we try not to let it bother us. Last night we were hit again but this time it emptied the server and it didn't fill back up.

Admins should be allowed to have a bit more control over the servers is what i hear on a daily basis and to a point i fully agree, but i also understand that there are a lot of peaple new to the game that would class a good kill as dodgy because they are used to playing games along the lines of COD, MW etc and aren't used to this kind of survival genre.

You got my beans on the post there Ray.

[aksuduud 64]

I believe the point of an alpha version is to root out these game breaking bugs. And im very sure the devs know about them.

[RaysGoodLiquor 93]

I believe the point of an alpha version is to root out these game breaking bugs. And im very sure the devs know about them.

Very true, but this post doesn't have much to do with that. It recognizes what I see as a problem, lists potential problems this can cause for the future, and some suggestions to temporarily deal with the issues until something more permanent can be done.