Solution to +1 murder when returning fire

[seepra 9]

Common problem with neutral players who engage hostile players (who first fired at you, but missed a shot) and kill them. You didn't start the fight, but you get a +1 murder and lose a ton of humanity. Not cool!

My solution is based on the assumption DayZ and ArmA II engine uses hitboxes for damage modeling. If Rocket and the boys customized the player models to include a new big 3x3x3 meter hitbox originating from the center of the player model that would take 0 damage, but register as a player hit in the system, you would essentially have received fire from getting a bullet in your general direction. This would allow a player to engage hostile targets, with system acknowledging the hostile party "started it", and as such are lesser penalty for the defender to kill.

(I personally shoot very little at other players, but I'm under the impression that shooting at players who hit you first doesn't cause a humanity penalty. If it does, I think it should do so less, so that basically pacifist players have over time the most humanity by average, then neutral self-defenders, then opportunists, and bandits obviously would have the least humanity)

I don't know would it be possible to make bullets pass through the hitbox too, or would the hitbox swallow them, causing less ricochets and reduced realism, but of course that might be a problem with the proposed solution.

Edited August 30, 2012 by seepra

[enforcer1975 1111]

He doesn't need to do something complicated like that.

You can detect if someone is armed and has shot x seconds ago...all players in shooting range now have a y second windows where they canreturn fire. Anything else would be too complicated, of course you could try to detect players who are only in front of the shooter but someone showing hostility to others and giving away his position should be free to shoot at by all players imo.

[00dlez 22]

How would grenades function.... under either of your systems

[kebman 213]

It would at least differentiate who killed in cold blood, and who were defending themselves.

A hitbox won't slow a bullet down, only register it.

[seepra 9]

Great idea Enforcer! The only problem with yours is, that if you open fire towards Z's or an animal, and someone decides to shoot you because of that, it would count as a legit kill, not a murder. That would be abused by snipers a lot. But the idea of making a hitbox-shooter free-to-kill for anyone would be a great addition and seems logical!

On a further notice, the execution of my idea requires no additional coding, only an extra hitbox with no damage multiplier or effect, so I would assume mine would be simpler if we get down to detail :P

How would grenades function.... under either of your systems

They could have their completely own area-of-effect in addition to real damage, that would reach all players within a bit further distance than damage. That would mean that any grenade thrown anywhere towards a player would be considered a hostile attempt, same goes for triggered satchel charges. I'm not completely sure of the logistics of this one because I don't think the grenades function with the same ballistics as bullets, but I'm sure it could be implemented, just needs a bit more effort. (Or just make throwing grenades always mark players as "free-to-kill", but again I bet it would be abused, but no real reason to throw grenades otherwise in this game than attacking so might be a moot point, haha)

[Sgt.Asshat 607]

How would grenades function.... under either of your systems

You're not going to survive a grenade aimed at you....

[Photolysis 25]

For bullets, I think using a suppressing fire mechanic like Battlefield 3 could help. If a shot lands within a certain radius of your character that creates a suppressed effect (which distorts your vision and reduces your accuracy depending on how badly suppressed you are). Plus the mechanic itself lends itself to group play and tactics.

All the game needs to do is recognise that attacking someone who shot at you and caused this is a fair target for self defense.

For grenades and explosives the same effect could be reused, as they would have a much greater suppressing radius,

Melee weapons might be a bit more problematic.

[CerebralZombie (DayZ) 151]

It could work, but not sure if they will do that. Wouldn't be a bad idea at all though.

[seepra 9]

For bullets, I think using a suppressing fire mechanic like Battlefield 3 could help.

Is that present in Battlefield 3 multiplayer? I never tried it. Sounds like a good mechanism, although I'm sure many will disagree since it adds a factor into firefights that is debatable (ie. "hurr durr I wouldn't be scared at all if someone shot at me my aim would be perfect with a 360 noscope bitch").

What I'm proposing here, though, is the internal mechanic of the game which would then trigger whatever it triggers, and my initial proposition would just be to fix the issue concerning ambush-and-return-fire type situations which give the defending player an unjust murder. Anything else is extra, I'd just want this thing sorted, and with my limited knowledge adding one extra hitbox would sound like an easy and efficient solution.

[Lady Kyrah 1110]

Murder is murder, wether you where defending yourself or not. In a kill or be killed situation, if you really don't want to kill anyone... just die?

[Traveler (DayZ) 27]

A grenade is always a murder, seriously! You don't just throw it as a "warning"...

Just deal with the fact that, no matter who started it, the one who kills the other one effectively commits murder...in self defense, but yeah.

Don't try to make the game judge. It will not work. Although shooting someone in the back should subtract more humanity than from the front or sides (I feel that is already the case?).

The hitbox seems like a neat idea, but what category will you put in "murder in self defense"? It will still have to subtract humanity, but less, there I agree!

[Quaby 93]

Pretty nice idea. I'm not sure about the technical issues, but it sounds like it could work. Enjoy a dinner of baked beans ;)

[seepra 9]

Murder is murder, wether you where defending yourself or not. In a kill or be killed situation, if you really don't want to kill anyone... just die?

I understand your mentality, but it completely ignores the built-in mechanic which currently exists: ie: killing bandits doesn't reduce humanity, or people who have HIT you (ie. shot at you, but the game doesn't register and realize attempted assaults if they don't hit you, and you obviously don't want to take a hit before you kill them just to make it a just murder), and that's the issue this hitbox modification is trying to counter. What you're proposing is a change in the existing system, I'm just looking to improve it and make function "properly", the way I'm imagining the team actually meant it to work.

In real life where people are stuck to one server and one hive 24/7 with forced direct chat and no forums or clans or skype to fragment the intel, rumors about other characters spread a lot more efficiently. To compensate for this on multiple servers, separate hives and people who don't communicate in-game or in forums at all that all make information about player's deeds a lot less coherent, humanity is an excellent idea. As such, a kill in "self defense" should not lower your humanity as much as a murder does, or at all. I don't look to change that because I think it works, just want to make it work in a more common sense way when it comes to counting humanity. I don't look to add or take anything away from the current thing on top of that.

Edited August 29, 2012 by seepra

[Lady Kyrah 1110]

I understand your mentality, but it completely ignores the built-in mechanic which currently exists: ie: killing bandits doesn't reduce humanity, or people who have HIT you (ie. shot at you, but the game doesn't register and realize attempted assaults if they don't hit you, and you obviously don't want to take a hit before you kill them just to make it a just murder), and that's the issue this hitbox modification is trying to counter. What you're proposing is a change in the existing system, I'm just looking to improve it and make function "properly", the way I'm imagining the team actually meant it to work.

In real life where people are stuck to one server and one hive 24/7 with forced direct chat and no forums or clans or skype to fragment the intel, rumors about other characters spread a lot more efficiently. To compensate for this on multiple servers, separate hives and people who don't communicate in-game or in forums at all that all make information about player's deeds a lot less coherent, humanity is an excellent idea. As such, a kill in "self defense" should not lower your humanity as much as a murder does, or at all. I don't look to change that because I think it works, just want to make it work in a more common sense way when it comes to counting humanity. I don't look to add or take anything away from the current thing on top of that.

Totally i don't even see why we still have the humanity, it's about time that rocket realise it's a stupid idea that doesn't help the game in any way.

The game cannot judge actions that depend from a context that it cannot understand. Ex: if i threaten someone to shoot if they get any closer, i'm technically in self defence if the person persist, but how do you model that in a game? Usually you don't.

[seepra 9]

Well that's your personal issue then, AFAIK humanity is going to stay even though it'll be improved in longer run, says Rocket. Thanks for the bumps though!

[enforcer1975 1111]

Great idea Enforcer! The only problem with yours is, that if you open fire towards Z's or an animal, and someone decides to shoot you because of that, it would count as a legit kill, not a murder. That would be abused by snipers a lot. But the idea of making a hitbox-shooter free-to-kill for anyone would be a great addition and seems logical!

On a further notice, the execution of my idea requires no additional coding, only an extra hitbox with no damage multiplier or effect, so I would assume mine would be simpler if we get down to detail :P

Yes that could be, but you can limit the detection area of to a certain distance, maybe not beyond 300m maybe even less so anyone with a decent rifle should be able to engage a potential hostile. Shots beyond that range are uncommon with the vegetation/landscape anyway if you are traveling with a group and are giving "sniper cover", any other use of a sniper rifle beyond that range is mostly for killing for fun anyway aka "murderers not bandits". Of course it's difficult to balance such a system when it comes to towns because everyone is in close proximity but you could say it's the "risk of being in a town and shooting".

You can never cover 100% with this system, only do the best it can. I've seen much more difficult things solved, this is possible and can be done by a professional scripter/game designer.