Dynamic Hard Loot Caps

[xximrtwoixx 104]

There have been serval posts discussing the game's loot/gear economy and how screwed up it is, I have posted a similar suggestion within some of those posts, but as I believe this would be the best solution and provide the most authentic experiance I am creating a thread for the suggestion. I will try to keep this from being TLDR, but it will explained in detail.

People blame scripters/dupers for all of the high end gear currently floating around the game economy, I believe and as some others have pointed out this is merely an acceleration of the game's economy. Set loot spawns do not really make things more rare, they simply increase the amount of time it takes to aquire a given item, all items are actually available in infinite numbers. Players have the ability to farm any system that is uncapped to aquire whatever they wish based on the amount of time they wish to spend farming. Because "good" items are not discarded this means they will persist because they will always be taken. Over time the number of these items that are available will continue to increase until they are commonly possesed by players even though the time needed to spawn them remains high.

This issue can be addressed through added loot sinks like damage or wear to gear, but the odds remain that players would keep these better items in good repair so the effect of loot sinks would be minimal. Randomization of item loss after death would have an effect, but IMO this is unauthentic, and because these items would make up a smaller percentage of total items held random removal would effect them less than common items like food/water.

I believe the best solution to introduce actual scarcity would be to cap the total number of items available to all players, this is how and why I believe this to be the best solution.

How:

Loot possesion rates via player inventory or storage are saved both to the Hive and individual servers. The rate of possesion can be calculated by combining these numbers, and once the possession rate reaches the items spawn rate (Or a desired percentage) that item will no longer spawn. It's spawn percentage chance or its place in the loot table will be converted to generic "trash" loot or cans. This would ensure that other items do not have inflated spawn chances as the total number of items spawned is not changed. All items outside of trash would become scarce, as they truly exhist in finite numbers based on the number of players. (Certain items could be excluded if it is deemed that they are required or should always be available, ie water bottles, melee weapons, or even basic sidearms/rifles like mak's or whinny's)

To implement this in a way that saves resources within the game the mechanic could be set to run daily, where a nightly job calculates all possesion and then updates the loot tables. The loot table files are held on the hive and when the server updates or restarts it queries these numbers and sets them accordingly. This will save resources and ensure that possesion numbers are close enough to the desired numbers. The alternative would be querring the tables each time loot is generated and that would create to much lag.

Why:

True scarcity of items would make survival more of an active task, as you would need to truly hunt for food, ammo, weapons etc. This system would also authentically simulate the migration of goods from set pre shtf locations to player created storage. Finding items would also truly be rewarding as you could no longer simply count on finding everything you need/want when you go to a given location. This same principle could be applied to animal spawn chance based on meat possesion rates, thus all food could truly become scarce.

True scarcity would also influence player actions, there are countless threads complaining about snipers/griefers if items are truly scarce these actions would be reduced without removing or punishing certain actions in game. Hopping from server to server in an attempt to get loot would also be reduced IMO because chances for items would be the same, once all the AS50's are gone they gone, you have to hunt someone down and take it from their cold dead hands if you want one.

This would also extend the amount of required play time to be geared up or be ready to DM, as this increases the number of people taking these actions decreases because when they die they lose this time. Thus this mechanic reduces DM without ever punishing it directly, so players are still free to do so if they wish.

This would also increase the effects of perma death as lost items will be scooped up by other players, and because the amount of play time to aquire items is increased the butt hurt over losing that invested time will increase. This equates to less stupid actions by players.

This mechanic could also serve to control other issues that effect gameplay or content like abuse of above ground fortifications, when they are in a pack or set and exhist they are added to the possesion number thus players would not be able to use them to build elaborate unauthentic structures. This would then allow for more above ground fortification content to be added.

This mechanic also adds value to exhisting content, with ammo auto duping on log in fixed true scarcity of ammo would add major bonuses to weapons that have more commonly available ammo types like shotguns and civilian rifles.

This system is also something that is achievable, the more authentic scenario would be all items spawn simply at once but that would be impossible due to engine limitations.

This system could be expanded and tested to generate certain game play, over time all item number's could be reduced to simulate the ever increasing scarcity of supplies when there are none coming into the region to replace them. This could even be used to introduce a countdown type of mechanic, once everything is gone all things are reset as everyone would die.

This mechanic would directly provide gameplay as it creates an active task for the player, it would also not limit or stop certain gameplay the way removal of storage or a massive reduction in inventory would.

Why Not: (Flaws or changes in gameplay)

Admin Abuse: Admins manipulate restarts to game the system.

-Response: This already occurs and will always occur as long as the community is in possesion of servers. Server clans would simply go from having 20 of everything to maybe 1 or 2 of them, you would still be able to kill and take whatever you wish from them.

Hard to get loot: Noobs or even vets struggle to find any loot

- Response: This is the point to a degree, I also believe its true that your less likely to be killed if your not fully equiped. I think this would cause under equiped players to seek out better equiped players for protection thus building bonds while unarmed that reduce the chances of betrayal latter. As a last resort this could be minimized by allowing certain items to never be capped.

Other people have all the good shit: A small percentage of players are more likley to be in possesion of a large percent of good items.

- Response: This is what happens when things are scarce, those that excel end up with more pie than those that don't. This IMO is simply added content as it makes finding better items more of an active task and extends the time it takes a player to be successful at it. It also makes players that are in possesion of good items charish them more as they know that it puts a target on their back. IMO its also true that most weapons only really have a precieved advantage over each other, tactics and player skill are much more important than what weapon you have, so long as you have a weapon. Also as above cetrain items can be uncapped to ensure everyone has a chance to let their actual skill decide their fate.

People that quit playing effect the game economy: When a player quits playing and is still alive the loot they posses remains taken off of the loot tables

-Response: This can be addressed via counters for days not logged in before weapon is readded or removed from player inventory.

I want to DM in Cherno: I want to only pvp and taking my playtime to find guns sucks.

- Response: You still have the ability to PVP to your hearts content, your not punished, you simply have to find a gun like everyone else.

Scarcity means increased banditry: Players are more likely to be in conflict over resources when there are fewer resources

- Response: I think this simply adds legitimacy to banditry as items are truly scarce, no longer is there an infinite supply for those that want to spend the time looking. If you don't believe banditry is a legitimate survival technique we have a fundemental disagreement I guess. I also think this could server to reduce KOS or Random Killing indirectly, simply because the weapons/ammo required to do so would be more valuable than the lulz for killing to a majority of players. Also if someone is unarmed they pose little threat, and if they only have the same shit you do your less likely to shoot them (Items that aren't capped). Furthermore altruistic actions would be more rewarding because using precious resources on a random stranger would truly say alot about your character.

TLDR: Please read the why nots before posting one of them...

Capping the number of items via dynamic possesion rates will add inderect controls that modify the majority of player actions and add content because it will take longer or be impossible to become fully geared. It is also the only way to have an authentic loot mechanic that can not be farmed.

[SmashT 10907]

Rocket has talked about implementing weapon/gear degradation over time for standalone, that seems like a much simpler solution to loot inflation and is far less open to abuse.

Edited August 28, 2012 by smasht_AU

[Gordon Axeman 191]

Hell no. Ppl get a car, go into loot places, grab everything, and it no longer spawns. Fucking monopoly.

[xximrtwoixx 104]

Rocket has talked about implementing weapon/gear degradation over time for standalone, that seems like a much simpler solution to loot inflation and is far less open to abuse.

As I stated gear sinks wont reduce the number of high end items, players will use their resources to fix their best equipment over their crappy equipment. They will also stop using high end gear if it is about to break so that it can be fixed, high end things will be babied and they will always be picked up off of bodies or out of tents. Thus gear sinks won't work to reduce inflation of high end gear...

If you can explain to me how they would work to reduce inflation please do, I don't see a system working unless weapons break at a rate that ruins immersion because it is so un-authentic. Or if they were timer based, but then you have things breaking when your not even using them wtf would that be...

Hell no. Ppl get a car, go into loot places, grab everything, and it no longer spawns. Fucking monopoly.

Yes that would be possible, and it is addressed in OP. Do you prefer that everyone have everything available to them in infinite numbers?

[SmashT 10907]

Who said anything about being able to repair degrading gear?

[xximrtwoixx 104]

Who said anything about being able to repair degrading gear?

I think its bs that I would not be able to service a fire arm, or that it would degrade to the point of being unoperable within an amount of time that would matter if the user knows what their doing. Wear out your shoes, run out of matches, etc but adding in nerfs that act soley as nerfs and are completley outside the players control is both unauthentic and the deffinition of gamey IMO.

Even if you couldn't repair items it still would have little effect, go to NWAF farm the barracks for an hour, leave with multiples of whatever I want. You can increase the spawn time for items, but then I can just farm for 2 hours instead, or hop to 10 servers. I can also figure out how the loot spawns so I can have other members of the team coming in to generate their own loot chance to increase how many spawns we get. Or do you want to extend the respawn timer to the point that its once per restart, then the admins exploit it even worse than my suggestion, and no one else gets anything when they go to loot locations.

Please elaborate

[Wiley 49]

@Mr. Two: The main items that 'wear' on semi auto/automatic guns are moving parts. Springs, bolt assembly, etc. Unless they implement the ability to find or build a machine shop ingame, there are relatively few user servicable parts in an assault rifle. Cleaning should be a factor as well.

The higher end gear should only be repairable through replacement, really. I wouldn't mind seeing a system similar to vehicles implemented, where you've got an M4, with a receiver, back stock, forestock, bolt assembly, firing pin, main spring... Maybe trigger assembly? All of that as well as modular optics/attachments where applicable.

Break them down into main components that can be swapped out from other rifles if desired. Make the ones that are interchangeable across models IRL interchangeable in game.

[xximrtwoixx 104]

@Mr. Two: The main items that 'wear' on semi auto/automatic guns are moving parts. Springs, bolt assembly, etc. Unless they implement the ability to find or build a machine shop ingame, there are relatively few user servicable parts in an assault rifle. Cleaning should be a factor as well.

The higher end gear should only be repairable through replacement, really. I wouldn't mind seeing a system similar to vehicles implemented, where you've got an M4, with a receiver, back stock, forestock, bolt assembly, firing pin, main spring... Maybe trigger assembly? All of that as well as modular optics/attachments where applicable.

Break them down into main components that can be swapped out from other rifles if desired. Make the ones that are interchangeable across models IRL interchangeable in game.

I know what wears out, how many rounds does it take to wear something out in a carrier group, a barrel, a trigger assembly? How many rounds are actually fired by players? Even adding multiple possesions and a chance for breaking through violent possesion change what is the chance that the weapon is a 10 pound paper weight within a week? That gets you X.

Now "balance" X so that weapon wears out fast enough so that you lose it before another player spawns in that same exact weapon.

Because a player can go farm a location they can get the weapon within an hour, so now X goes from a weeks time to the average use within an hour, how much is that 2-3 clips maybe 5 if pure pvp? If they aren't pvping then that may last them weeks, how many players now have that weapon in a week? So should X really just be time and not wear? Does X equaling a couple hundred rounds or a given time authentically simulate weapon degredation? Can any of this add up to a system that has any semblance of control on the loot economy when players can go game the system to get whatever they want and store as many as they want?

Can you answer any of the above??

[ScienceMan 9]

I really like the idea, but I am worried it will not reduce pvp... It seems to me that when you die you will have very little to lose and a much bigger gain if you kill another player. An axe and a lie would be all you would need to gear up... This will be widely known and trust will be in very short supply to the newly spawned characters. This may increase pvp from high geared players killing low geared players in fear that the guy with the hatchet wants your stuff and has nothing to lose.... I am not sure if there is a fix for this problem however. Maybe do some kind of respawn timer that is reduced the longer you are alive?

[Deathcall 101]

Your idea seems really similar to one I posted in another thread Mr. Two.

Allow me to link it so you can see and compare...

Depletable Worlds

What's the most transcendental thing about an apocalypse? Well, that things as we know them end.

What does it mean for a zombie (infected?) themed game such as Day Z?

Ammo is limited

Many people keep bringing up the fact that the in-game currency should be ammunition. This is a most realistic assertion simply because the production lines have stopped and it's most likely that even if there are a few people out there who know how to create more ammunition, the tools or "ingredients" necessary for that aren't easy to find. Even more, "high-end" ammunition like that of sniper rifles or other similar weapons would most likely require a level of knowledge not easily encountered in your every day post-apocalypse wannabe gunsmith.

Food is scarce

Granted, given the decrease in the "living" population after a zombie outbreak, the amount of food initially available for consumption (adjust this if people were able to stockpile before the infection became uncontrollable) would be sufficient to sustain the "starting" survivor population. However, as a server "ages" it will eventually run out. That means that there will be a moment where there isn't anything to be had in supermarkets or previously looted locations. People will have to go from scavenging to hunting and/or producing their own food.

Medical care and supplies eventually run out

First, think that many medical supplies and equipment require modern day technology in order to remain useful. For example, our so precious blood bags would technically need to be stored in cooling devices so they don't "spoil". Other things, like painkillers and antibiotics might be more resilient, as well as with most "main-stream" medicines (pretty much everything you can buy in a pharmacy), but serums and similar materials most likely won't survive for too long after the outbreak. Combine this with the fact that these things aren't getting "restocked" and that it isn't easy to produce them "at home" and you'll come to the realization that even though they might outlast food and ammunition, once they are gone, they are gone for good.

Vehicles and Fuel

The fact is that no new parts are being made and no more fuel is being refined. These two resources are as likely to eventually disappear as the ones I previously mentioned. You may be able to scavenge for some vehicle parts (adjusting for compatibility) and tap some fuel-tanks, stations or silos, but, in the long run, you'll end up walking everywhere. Even after reclaiming a refinery (if there is one), the refining process is not something that normal people can perform. The same way normal people cannot build new cars even if they take-over a factory previously dedicated to that purpose. Also, bear in mind that the most "priced" vehicles such as boats, planes and helicopters most likely utilize a non-standard type of fuel which will be even more scarce.

Society reforms itself

Despite me being a hardcore friendly survivor. I understand the developers' persistence when they say that bandits are as much a part of this game as zombies. And that would make absolute sense in a depletable world. Right now, there's not much point in killing people when you don't actually have a need for anything. This is just my opinion, of course, but in the current state of things, every player kill in Day Z is either out of tedium (because of lack of better things to do) or trolling.

In a world where things are starting to run out, it would make perfect sense for those who are striving to survive to struggle over the little resources that are left. This would mean that players who prefer violence would actually be justified in their actions. Of course there will still be killing "for fun", but wasting ammunition, food, medical supplies, fuel, etc., will be a punishment on it's own. Eventually, I'd like for the term "bandit" to disappear and have it fused with "survivor". Because we would all be "survivors", the difference would be how we choose to face this new world. Do we break away from the pre-outbreak social order and ethics? Or do we try to stay true, and reacquire what we have lost?

Life goes on, or does it?

We are survivors because we survive. The ultimate objective is simply to live. This is currently somewhat implemented in our current way of playing the game. People with long "lives" like to boast about how they have endured the apocalypse. The problem is that it doesn't feel as if we were surviving a zombie-outbreak, but an all out, free for all, gunfight in some imaginary land.

Players on a server, as a community of sorts, should aim to have the "longest" survival attempt. What I mean is, it's not about how long a single player can stay alive but how long a server can sustain it's own population.

If the players allow the food to deplete, they'll eventually starve. If they waste all their ammunition in pointless zombie or player kills, they'll have to go around with crossbows and axes until they can make some more. And so on.

***

Very well, that's the idea I've been brewing for the past days. Of course, there are some...

Problems

Lets start by saying that this entire idea is meant for the Standalone, and I don't even know if it's possible (or in the developers interest) to go for it. I do know that's pretty impossible to do it with the current mod.

Lets look at some of the problems and possible solutions to the "depletable worlds".

Character bound to server

Of course, characters will have to be bound to servers. That means that you won't be able to server-hop in the same manner that you do now. Players should be able to join any server, but they will spawn as fresh-characters when they switch, while their previous incarnation remains on the other "world". This will prevent "resource" swapping between servers and keep true to the idea of "which server can last the longer".

Given the possibility of several maps, it may be possible to establish transition areas (or conditions) that allow characters to leave the current server and join a different world, as long as it's not the same map in which they have been playing (for "reality" purposes). Of course, if they decide to go back, they should travel to the same server they left or the entire point would be lost.

I do realize that this is really complicated. But, if servers reach the point where they can host different maps at the same time, the whole server transition wouldn't be needed, making things much "dynamic".

Also, I have no idea what kind of pressure this mechanic would put on the hive. Perhaps someone with more knowledge in that subject can point it out.

Population Control, needed or not?

This mechanic would imply that there should be a somewhat static population in a server. However, if too many players where to join and leave without contributing to a particular world, it could greatly hinder the server's "survivability". This accounts both for server hoppers (who might just try a particular one and then drop out, taking away precious resources with them) or trolls (who might come in with the clear purpose of damaging the experience for others).

There are some workarounds which I can think of for this problem.

First, and most drastic. Invite-only servers. Not really a measure that I see being implemented as it would deter the experience.

Second, implement an "expire" date for characters. If a player chooses not to use a character in a particular server for a period time (say, just for an example, x times the amount of time he played on his last session*), everything that player consumed (such as food or ammunition) and holds (such as guns and other supplies) re-spawns, this should be limited to "short-lived" characters. Similar mechanics could be in place for "long-lived" characters, but only for those things that they were holding at the moment of expiration, otherwise, there could be a "flood" of consumables whenever a player who has been around for a long time stops playing, something which could be abused.

*Secondary mechanic should be implemented to allow for players with an accumulated played time surpassing X to remain "active" longer.

Third, no mechanic is needed at all and I'm over-worrying.

Early Shortages

"The Great Bean Rush of Chernogosk" could become a real event if resource spawns aren't handled correctly. What I mean is, if all loot just spawns once, this would imply that new arrivals are going to be in a really sticky situation, even if it has been only a few days since the server started. Ideally, loot will re-spawn up to a certain point, and at a slower (much?) pace.

Some sort of meter should be instated in order for players to know what amount of "old-world" resources remain in a particular server.

If you aren't up for the long read, I'll make it short.

There must be some sort of "depletion" of the in-game resources for this game to evolve to the next level.

Wear and tear for weapons is not a solution. It's a delaying patch. Even if you can't repair weapons, which, in all honesty would be a silly concept considering that our characters can repair freaking military helicopters, the problem will remain, it'll just get "slowed down". Besides, how long is the average life in Day Z nowadays? I think it'll hardly get to the point where your weapon is starting to break before you get killed. And even considering that the next person picks it up, he won't last long either. Eventually, it may be days and many many hands before the weapon starts showing signs of decay.

On a secondary but still important note, can the hive keep track of all the weapons in game? Won't that cause too much traffic? Or will it be something server-sided?

Overall, I'm not against the wear and tear mechanic, it's realistic. But as long as things just keep respawning all the time (at least at the rate they do now, where you can just loot an entire building, leave for a few minutes and come back to find brand new loot), it'd be useless. You can't quicken it like they've done to the food and water meters or it'll become too bothersome, and you can't make it take too long or it'll become pointless.

Edited August 28, 2012 by Deathcall

[xximrtwoixx 104]

There must be some sort of "depletion" of the in-game resources for this game to evolve to the next level.

I think scarcity can be seperated from depletion, scarcity does introduce depletion but it still allows for a set number of items to exhist. You really can't have either with the current loot system though, thats why I posted this suggestion because I believe it would be the best way to handle loot spawning. If at a later time the servers need more tears to cool off Dev's could reduce the possesion percentage over time to create depletion if they wanted. With this mechanic it could be applied to all servers at the same time rather than single servers like you suggest.

Wear and tear for weapons is not a solution. It's a delaying patch. Even if you can't repair weapons, which, in all honesty would be a silly concept considering that our characters can repair freaking military helicopters, the problem will remain, it'll just get "slowed down". Besides, how long is the average life in Day Z nowadays? I think it'll hardly get to the point where your weapon is starting to break before you get killed. And even considering that the next person picks it up, he won't last long either. Eventually, it may be days and many many hands before the weapon starts showing signs of decay.

On a secondary but still important note, can the hive keep track of all the weapons in game? Won't that cause too much traffic? Or will it be something server-sided?

Overall, I'm not against the wear and tear mechanic, it's realistic. But as long as things just keep respawning all the time (at least at the rate they do now, where you can just loot an entire building, leave for a few minutes and come back to find brand new loot), it'd be useless. You can't quicken it like they've done to the food and water meters or it'll become too bothersome, and you can't make it take too long or it'll become pointless.

The data for all of the equipment in players inventory is already kept in the hive, thats how you have the same gear when you log in as when you log out. The mechanic I suggest runs a query of the hive's data to check at what percentage all items occur in the total player population, (this could be modified to exclude players that haven't logged in a certain time frame) this number is saved as player possesion rate. Its simpler if there aren't community servers as all the data from servers would be easily available also as above and stored equipment would be calculated in the same way as above. With community servers you code in a before/after restart script that checks all equipment in storage as that data is what is saved on the server side. On a restart the server sends this information to the Hive servers where it is added to the player possesion rate to give you the total possesion rate. This is then used to remove any items from the loot tables that are possessed over their determined possesion rate. As all of this happens as a nightly one time job and then on server restart I believe it would only effect the entire system at server restart (they would be longer) and during the nightly job (Servers could be down or slow while it runs). This is how business update produciton data to their UI's. The messy part is that servers will still have different numbers based on whats stored in them in the system, unless all of their data is saved and added together, again a product of community servers. I hope their are no community servers myself as it would make so many things much simpler, but thats a different topic.

I am also for weapon degredation, but I agree that it won't be able to fix the game economy by itself.

[Wiley 49]

Ok, maybe my intent came across badly in that post. I was mostly responding to your comment about people not being able to service a weapon in a shtf situation being BS. I was just pointing out that it wouldn't be trivial to repair most of the important moving parts in an assault rifle.

I think degradation might be necessary depending on how a system like yours were implemented. I would suggest a number of rounds, with hard use being a factor. Ideally physical damage from impact/bullets could be applied, but that's reaching a bit.

I'm not really against global scarcity. The biggest concern I'd have would be stuff getting muled off to characters that are basically there for offline storage. I know you mentioned stuff disappearing if you don't log in every so often. However long it is, balancing that against people who are going to log in every N-1 days to keep their stuff would still be an issue.

Stripping it from inventory wouldn't be my favorite. I cycle games on a regular basis and I'd be fairly uptight if the M4 I had gotten fair and square was lost to me because I hadn't logged in in a couple weeks. I don't think it would be that terribly bad to have the item go back into the pool without stripping it from the person's inventory. There'd be some inflation over time, but not like the system as it stands now. And if the person started playing again, that one would start being counted again. Sure, there might be a surplus of different items from time to time, but if some form of weapon wear were implemented, it would eventually even itself out.

With the state the game is currently in, there's no really easy way to judge how the current model will impact scarcity. The existence of unlimited .45 and DMR/M14 ammo alone greatly inflates the amount of ammo available to people, to say nothing of duping.

The inability for people to have secure storage is another factor. With the current system working correctly, if someone finds your camp, you go from having 5 AS50s to none. You've got to go scrounging again. True it's only a matter of time though.

[xximrtwoixx 104]

Ok, maybe my intent came across badly in that post. I was mostly responding to your comment about people not being able to service a weapon in a shtf situation being BS. I was just pointing out that it wouldn't be trivial to repair most of the important moving parts in an assault rifle.

I think degradation might be necessary depending on how a system like yours were implemented. I would suggest a number of rounds, with hard use being a factor. Ideally physical damage from impact/bullets could be applied, but that's reaching a bit.

I'm fine with degredation as I think it is authentic, but I think it needs to be implemented correctly otherwise it is simply a gamey mechanic ment to punish people for being successfull. If damage done was used to implicate wear this would punish people for having good aim rather than indicate hard use. Really the only trackable things that could be used to measure degredation would number of rounds fired and number of hits to weapon from incoming fire. Damage from incoming fire could be very high and I'd be fine with that, but your rifle turning into garbage after a couple hundred rounds is BS IMO, especially for some systems like revolvers, pump actions, bolt actions etc. I think degredation could be used to make these low tech weapon platforms more valuable because they are more robust than semi auto/full auto platforms.

I'm not really against global scarcity. The biggest concern I'd have would be stuff getting muled off to characters that are basically there for offline storage. I know you mentioned stuff disappearing if you don't log in every so often. However long it is, balancing that against people who are going to log in every N-1 days to keep their stuff would still be an issue.

People abusing meta game through purchasing of extra CD keys shouldn't be a major factor in design IMO. In the end its more money for the company and those players are doing more work.

Stripping it from inventory wouldn't be my favorite. I cycle games on a regular basis and I'd be fairly uptight if the M4 I had gotten fair and square was lost to me because I hadn't logged in in a couple weeks. I don't think it would be that terribly bad to have the item go back into the pool without stripping it from the person's inventory. There'd be some inflation over time, but not like the system as it stands now. And if the person started playing again, that one would start being counted again. Sure, there might be a surplus of different items from time to time, but if some form of weapon wear were implemented, it would eventually even itself out.

Agree here, I think the key is attempting to get close to set numbers for scarcity not ensuring you have them and as you state degredation can function as a secondary control much better than a primary control.

With the state the game is currently in, there's no really easy way to judge how the current model will impact scarcity. The existence of unlimited .45 and DMR/M14 ammo alone greatly inflates the amount of ammo available to people, to say nothing of duping.

This is duping and I hope it will be fixed addressed in standalone, from what I've read/heard in interviews magazines will be refillable containers in standalone thus this issue would be solved straight away.

The inability for people to have secure storage is another factor. With the current system working correctly, if someone finds your camp, you go from having 5 AS50s to none. You've got to go scrounging again. True it's only a matter of time though.

I agree that your inability to secure storage acts as a control of persistent storage. But the scenario you describe is inflation in action group B now has 5 AS50's and group A has 5 more in an hour. Becaues good weapons or the best equipment are what is taken from tents/players they will simply continue to be more common.

Edited August 29, 2012 by xXI Mr Two IXx

[hoik 415]

Great idea, I admit I hadn't even considered this flaw in dynamic loot systems. IMO it is alot more elegant a solution for item 'inflation' then simple weapon degredation :) .

[bazbake 456]

I can't agree with this idea.

The most obvious problem with hard loot caps is that it allows loot farmers and server hoppers to corner the market on loot. Loot isn't a reward for hard work, it's mostly a matter of luck (trust me, I've found two M107's in helicopter crashes and nothing in NWAF but AKMs, chemlights, and ammo for AS50's). Which is why players have begun telling luck to fuck itself and go from server to server rerolling on loot tables all day long.

Keeping the loot is the hard work. By creating a system where it becomes literally impossible to find good loot by doing the exact same thing another player did a week earlier, you're punishing new players. And what if people with really good loot just decide to stop playing because they don't have a challenge anymore? Does their loot disappear from their inventory after a week? And what if all they did was go on vacation over the summer? Do you punish them for not devoting their entire life to a 30 dollar videogame?

There needs to be an understanding that game economies are holistic. You can't just cut the flow off at one end and then resolve all of the issues. There are a lot of moving parts.

Storage is the biggest immediate issue with a cap on loot tables. As long as tents and vehicle storage exist, people can farm for loot by server hopping on low-pop servers and then stash it and remove it permanently from the economies of servers they have never even visited until they choose to use it. For every hoarder with military gear there are 20-50 powerful weapons in their stash across multiple servers on the Hive that are not being used. Once duping goes away, you can probably lower that to 10-20 weapons. And about 80% of those weapons will never be used. By setting a hard cap across servers, people with nothing but free time who show up two weeks before a new player can destroy the possibility of that player ever seeing rare loot. If even 20% of the player base is hoarding, you can watch the entire loot tables completely collapse.

Putting a hard cap on loot will only work if people aren't removing loot out of circulation. Otherwise, it will create a completely predictable false scarcity where the value of loot is overappreciated and a few powergamers become merchant kings by fucking the system over by building empires of shit. Also, they'll be the most over-prepared, heavily-armed people in the game so naturally they'll just continue to go on about their business coasting through the game riding a wave of loot hunting newbs down with one of several pairs of nightvision goggles or sniping you in the dark with their thermal optics. They'll be high tech reaver squads sweeping the apocalypse because they logged onto the game a week before someone else did.

If you cap the loot tables, you have to throw out tents and vehicle storage or it won't be a sustainable solution. Actually, it will end up making the problem worse.

[SmashT 10907]

I think its bs that I would not be able to service a fire arm, or that it would degrade to the point of being unoperable within an amount of time that would matter if the user knows what their doing. Wear out your shoes, run out of matches, etc but adding in nerfs that act soley as nerfs and are completley outside the players control is both unauthentic and the deffinition of gamey IMO.

Even if you couldn't repair items it still would have little effect, go to NWAF farm the barracks for an hour, leave with multiples of whatever I want. You can increase the spawn time for items, but then I can just farm for 2 hours instead, or hop to 10 servers. I can also figure out how the loot spawns so I can have other members of the team coming in to generate their own loot chance to increase how many spawns we get. Or do you want to extend the respawn timer to the point that its once per restart, then the admins exploit it even worse than my suggestion, and no one else gets anything when they go to loot locations.

Please elaborate

You can spend hours farming all the loot you want but what would be the point if they are all going to be as equally degraded after a certain amount of time and constantly jamming.

[xximrtwoixx 104]

I can't agree with this idea.

I know, you don't think anyone should have an advantage over anyone else, or that working towards things in game should result in any type of reward. If there are no rewards, or a tangible point in survivnig or being successfull, establishing a stockpile, building a base then whats the point? You simply have an extended round of COD style free for all DM on a huge map where your required to eat. If thats all you want fine, I want persistence, I want an authentic immersive world, and part of that IMO is that your not always going to be on an equal level, you can and will be subjegated by forces greater than yourself.

The most obvious problem with hard loot caps is that it allows loot farmers and server hoppers to corner the market on loot. Loot isn't a reward for hard work, it's mostly a matter of luck (trust me, I've found two M107's in helicopter crashes and nothing in NWAF but AKMs, chemlights, and ammo for AS50's). Which is why players have begun telling luck to fuck itself and go from server to server rerolling on loot tables all day long.

Your biggest objection is based on a design gap that exists in an alpha? Rocket has talked about dealing with hopping in a myriad of ways, and he has also talked about the end goal being linked servers that require travel. Farming IMO is not as bad as hopping as your exposed to risk and it takes coordination of effort, but I still don't like it, and I think this mechanic would solve it because it would take away the motivation to farm outside of an initial economic run all gear. After that it would result in conflict over "elite" gear, really IMO it would simply make "common" gear way more valuable because you would be able to locate ammo. Also as I included in the OP cornering the market doesn't mean all that much in this type of system, ammo would actually be increadibly rare because it too would be capped. Also as mentioned in OP Civilian weapons can kill just as effectivley when in the hands of good players and they could have inflated possesion numbers or no cap at all.

Keeping the loot is the hard work. By creating a system where it becomes literally impossible to find good loot by doing the exact same thing another player did a week earlier, you're punishing new players. And what if people with really good loot just decide to stop playing because they don't have a challenge anymore? Does their loot disappear from their inventory after a week? And what if all they did was go on vacation over the summer? Do you punish them for not devoting their entire life to a 30 dollar videogame?

This is in OP and explained in prior posts also...

Loss to limbo of inactive players can be handled in a variety of ways, that item could remain in their possesion and it's count could simply be returned to the loot table. Inactive means =\= possesed in the query.

Keeping loot in this system would be a challenge people would be much more motivated to track down your tents or you to get what they want food/items/weapons. Also as I said certain things could have buffed numbers or no cap so new players would still be able to locate certain things, the things that are needed. I think there's a song about how it would work....

There needs to be an understanding that game economies are holistic. You can't just cut the flow off at one end and then resolve all of the issues. There are a lot of moving parts.

How many moving parts and player motivations are effected by an endless supply of whatever you want? How many people would complain about being a bandit when they are forced to experiance a decision of starvation vs conflict with another player? IMO this is just as much about authenticity as it is about "economics" it is much more authentic in the displayed scenario that players not be able to find endless supplies of loot. Also you can't have an economy when there is no reason for demand, you don't get demand if everything is freely available. Yes people trade now, NVG's for AS50's, I want to see a player with an AS50 want to trade it for 10 can's of beans.

Storage is the biggest immediate issue with a cap on loot tables. As long as tents and vehicle storage exist, people can farm for loot by server hopping on low-pop servers and then stash it and remove it permanently from the economies of servers they have never even visited until they choose to use it. For every hoarder with military gear there are 20-50 powerful weapons in their stash across multiple servers on the Hive that are not being used. Once duping goes away, you can probably lower that to 10-20 weapons. And about 80% of those weapons will never be used. By setting a hard cap across servers, people with nothing but free time who show up two weeks before a new player can destroy the possibility of that player ever seeing rare loot. If even 20% of the player base is hoarding, you can watch the entire loot tables completely collapse.

It would really only change where players go to aquire things, instead of going to a supermarket or NWAF they are going to tents. This already happens alot, I think more than you account for. Tents aren't secure so anything inside of them is available for anyone who is smart enough to find it. The gear isn't removed from the economy the way you describe, it's in a tent or its on someone's person, that's where inflation comes from, becaues its there and then you go and spawn it and you have it too.

Putting a hard cap on loot will only work if people aren't removing loot out of circulation. Otherwise, it will create a completely predictable false scarcity where the value of loot is overappreciated and a few powergamers become merchant kings by fucking the system over by building empires of shit. Also, they'll be the most over-prepared, heavily-armed people in the game so naturally they'll just continue to go on about their business coasting through the game riding a wave of loot hunting newbs down with one of several pairs of nightvision goggles or sniping you in the dark with their thermal optics. They'll be high tech reaver squads sweeping the apocalypse because they logged onto the game a week before someone else did.

If you cap the loot tables, you have to throw out tents and vehicle storage or it won't be a sustainable solution. Actually, it will end up making the problem worse.

By removing loot out of circulation do you mean spawning it in? I don't understand how you can't understand that once something is spawned in it is in the economy no matter where it is until it is destroyed/deleted via restart. Thats what creates inflation in the current system, there is no limit to what can be spawned in. Its not false scarcity in this system there are actually only X amount of things, that is scarcity. Because Y number of people have a certain percentage of X doens't make it false or overappreciated. This is economics, there is no even distribution of wealth in an economy, if there is unlimited supply then there is no demand so there is no economy, just a bunch of people that want to be rambo. I think the scenario you describe, small number of people controlling a large number of resources and using that contorl to influce the actions of others sounds pretty authentic in an apocalypse.

You can spend hours farming all the loot you want but what would be the point if they are all going to be as equally degraded after a certain amount of time and constantly jamming.

See the post #8 that directly addresses your comment, thanks for elaborating on how effective degredation can be authentic, or how degredation can even have an effect on the loot economy....

If they don't break or aren't removed, but instead "jam" during use they are still part of the economy if they can be fixed you still have inflation, if they can't be fixed then it is exactly what I describe below. Also even if they jam one shot weapons like snipers rifles will still be valuable unless the jamming percentage is as rediculous as the rate of degredation over time that will be required to have any influence on the in game economy. Can you answer any of the below questions?

Time lapse degredation is simply a nerf for the sake of having a nerf, it provides no additional game play or content the way an actual economy based on scarcity would. Add to that it is unauthentic and breaks immersion, no account for how/where weapon is stored? Why does it wear out as soon as I posses it but it hasn't worn out while it was sitting at whatever location I looted it from?

These things can't be considered because if they were an item would stay in the economy fully functional, if it can be fixed the same thing happens, thus the mechanics purpose as a nerf would be ruined. That is how you can tell it is only a nerf/balancer and not an addition of actual content. If this is the case BazBake gets his wish because storing any gear when it degrades over a short period of time into crap makes it useless to aquire or store gear. Why have persistence at all if your going to nerf it into being pointless? I don't want disposable one use experiances that throw planning and vision out the window, and thats what a timlapse degredation mechanic would be creating.

Edited August 29, 2012 by xXI Mr Two IXx

[Deathcall 101]

I think the whole dilemma of this thread goes around a very simple question:

How "gamey" do we want Day Z to be?

I believe that Rocket has stated (several times) that Day Z is an "anti-game", that it's supposed to be a social experiment. He has also said that he isn't aiming for "ultra-realism", hence, no sleep mechanics (so far) or vowel movements.

Now, lets talk about weapon degradation and how "gamey" it is...

Modern weapons are meant to last. You can't have a soldier with a broken gun in the middle of combat. Also, they are meant to be repaired (as long as it's not something major) and cleaned easily. I believe we can all agree on this, at least regarding the low to mid-tec weapons. Things with night or thermal vision are the exception (high-tec), but then again, you can just remove the sight and use the weapon without it (possibly replacing it with another sight if the thing about there being modular-weapons in the Standalone is true).

Now... I'll bring this up again. What's the average life-expectancy in Day Z (mod)? Currently, 1 HOUR 5 MINUTES. This means that your regular, off the coast, survivor will spawn, go to a city, grab whatever he need and die to zombies, the environment or other survivors in pretty much just an hour.

How can weapon degradation affect this player? It simply (and realistically) can't.

Now lets assume we aren't all newbs and that we get an average life expectancy of, say, fivedays. Can a weapon degrade to a point where it actually starts malfunctioning in five days? This is Day Z, not Battlefield, people aren't going around firing round after round of ammunition. So what makes the weapon degrade? Do we add some kind of mechanic that represents the normal wear and tear exponentially (ex.: 1 shot fired = 100 shots in real life)? Or do we go for the weather approach and make it so rain and dirt actually affects your weapons (again, exponentially)? What about weapons well known for their durability (AKs for example)?

It simply can't be done in any way even close to realistic, it would be out of tone with the game. People are already complaining that they have to eat and drink too often, what do you think they'll say when their weapons break down after a couple clips are fired?

Disregarding that, are we going to be able to fix weapons? How hard will it be?

I'm not against a mechanic that makes weapons degrade, I'm against a mechanic that just circumvents the problem. Think about the bandit and hero skins. Rocket himself said that he didn't like the idea, but he had to end up adding them back because an aspect of the game was running rampant and it was affecting everyone's experience. The extreme surplus of weapons is pretty much the same thing, and adding some sort of quick badly-thought patch to it like an unrealistic weapon degradation system has the same bad taste.

For the people who are against this idea, I'd like you to actually elaborate (as the OP said) as to how do you think a weapon degradation system could be enacted to ACTUALLY help with the problem and not just become a bothersome mechanic everyone will come to hate (like when zombies broke your legs all the time).

[xximrtwoixx 104]

I'm not against a mechanic that makes weapons degrade, I'm against a mechanic that just circumvents the problem. Think about the bandit and hero skins. Rocket himself said that he didn't like the idea, but he had to end up adding them back because an aspect of the game was running rampant and it was affecting everyone's experience. The extreme surplus of weapons is pretty much the same thing, and adding some sort of quick badly-thought patch to it like an unrealistic weapon degradation system has the same bad taste.

+1 to this

Capping loot would be a wholeistic approach with the benefit of providing an actual economy within the game. Having an economy introduces tons of immergent game play as people struggle against each other to control that economy.

[Wiley 49]

It seems to me some of the lower tier stuff up to the level of the common AK variants should have really high cap numbers, and maybe a couple of them should be pretty much unlimited. Like the Makarov/Winchester for example.

Just kind of thinking out loud here, and I realize exactly what it would take on the technical end of things, but...

What if the degradation was only somewhat accelerated? Supposing a system that is kind of like the vehicles, with different components having their own wear life. Say, 4000 rounds through an assault rifle and the bolt assembly is worn out. The number is completely out of my ass for illustration, and different weapons could have different wear rates. Same with the different components. A barrel isn't going to wear out as fast as a bolt.

The world starts out, everything's new, everything's shiny. People find their weaponry and do their thing. As time goes on though, stuff gets used. Maybe it takes 100 owners before the bolt on an AK gets used up.

However, if I get sniped in a field and don't get looted until my body disappears, the gear I was carrying goes back into the 'pool' for respawning, with all the wear on it still intact. So when it spawns again, it's not brand new and shiny anymore.

That way, people will get reasonable wear and tear out of their weapons, but they won't work indefinitely. As game time rolls on, stuff gets worse and worse.

Of course, when a component is finally all used up, it goes back into the pool to respawn new.

[xximrtwoixx 104]

That way, people will get reasonable wear and tear out of their weapons, but they won't work indefinitely. As game time rolls on, stuff gets worse and worse.

Of course, when a component is finally all used up, it goes back into the pool to respawn new.

If this were somehow possible and everything was set to this same kind of timer, like food running out, I think it would be cooler if items never made it back into the pool as "whole" items but instead would be the busted variant w/zero durability.

[Wiley 49]

I wouldn't be fond of an absolute 'timer' on equipment. That just feels far too artificial to me. Wear should be tied to usage. The fact that it would happen over time should be a byproduct of usage IMO.

Maybe the thing to do for storage is require them to actually 'store' the weapon. Get hold of some gun grease, get hold of a container, grease it up and seal the container, and it won't degrade over time. Sitting in a tent out in the elements, or being lugged around every day degradation would occur. Perhaps only have that kind of degradation occur down to a certain point, so once it's below 50%, time degradation doesn't occur.

I'm not quite sure what to make of having stuff be repairable, and stuff coming out of the pool with zero durability. Machining parts for any rifle is a pretty refined skill. I guess there's nothing wrong with it, I just think scrounging replacement parts would fit better than machining stuff from scratch.

[xximrtwoixx 104]

I wasn't trying to imply that they be fixed at 0 durability, I meant following your prior post that if item durability could be tracked and it persisted even after the item "respawned" via normal loot drop, that when items got to 0 or were busted that they remain busted and unrepairable even if they spawn via normal spawn. X M16's when all of X is broken they remain broken forever until entire world players/items/etc is reset.

I think all of that is outside the scope of the OP though, unless degredation is a straight timer and a fast one at that players inflation will still occur and two months in everyone will have everything because they get it off of dead bodies/tents. So without caps on items you get Crap mechanic or total inflation...

There is a decent thread discussing item degredation that would probably be a better location to discuss it further.

I would like to keep this thread focused on capping loot and providing an in game economy that actually creates immergent game play.

[Wiley 49]

Ah. I hadn't stated it in as many words, but my point was that I think wear would be pretty much essential to have along with an item cap. Otherwise the people who run out at the beginning to grab them have them indefinitely, which IMO would be bad. There needs to be something in place so people can't just get the good stuff once and then sit on their asses as far as maintaining equipment/reequipping.

[xximrtwoixx 104]

I agree degredation would assist with redistribution, but so would the masses of enfield/akm/handgun/winchester wielding players who are out looking for gear/food. Redistribution by force or liberation through guile would replace loot runs to the church/grocery store.