Training over time (Character skilling)

[Pandemia 4]

You don't think running faster and shooting more accurately help you in PvP?

I don't see what this adds to the game, besides benefitting obsessive grinders at the expense of everyone else. What specific lack is this addressing?

You must lack the ability to comprehend what people are saying. That or you just do not read everything that is there.

You are talking like these "skills" would be something like perks in Skyrim. Ridiculously overpowered, unrealistic and easy to grind. Wrong.

They need to be subtle, simple.... realistic, invisible, unable to be grinded, unable to exceed unrealistic hights. They should not be able to be seen. They should not go by levels or points. It needs to be realistic. I do not get how people are not understanding that point.

If you go outside shooting a gun for practice at targets. Over time you will get better. At handling the gun, at aiming, at reloading, etc. You do not sit there for 24 hours "grinding" your skills with the gun and become maxed out in it. That is stupid and makes no sense, that is not realistic. You get better over time.

What it adds? A new sense of realism in the game. A sense of value and worth to what you are doing. A reason to survive.

[flimsypremise 94]

You must lack the ability to comprehend what people are saying. That or you just do not read everything that is there.

You are talking like these "skills" would be something like perks in Skyrim. Ridiculously overpowered, unrealistic and easy to grind. Wrong.

They need to be subtle, simple.... realistic, invisible, unable to be grinded, unable to exceed unrealistic hights. They should not be able to be seen. They should not go by levels or points. It needs to be realistic. I do not get how people are not understanding that point.

If you go outside shooting a gun for practice at targets. Over time you will get better. At handling the gun, at aiming, at reloading, etc. You do not sit there for 24 hours "grinding" your skills with the gun and become maxed out in it. That is stupid and makes no sense, that is not realistic. You get better over time.

What it adds? A new sense of realism in the game. A sense of value and worth to what you are doing. A reason to survive.

How exactly are you going to stop people from grinding a skill that improves based on how much you perform an activity? If you get better the more you shoot, people will go to remote areas with early game guns and widely available ammo and shoot hundreds of rounds. Even if you base it on time spent alive, players will simply collect food and water and "incubate" characters.

Any skill system is gameable, and if you introduce skills, you are inviting a certain portion of the player base to figure out ways to game the system. It doesn't matter what specific ruleset you introduce, someone will figure out a way to grind out that skill.

The game does not lack for a skill system. It is not a necessary feature. Survival goals should be oriented around building, equipping and exploring. You introduce skills and it will spawn a third-world industry for grinding those skills. Say hello to players paying chinese gamers to max their character before they play.

[Gordon Axeman 191]

How exactly are you going to stop people from grinding a skill that improves based on how much you perform an activity? If you get better the more you shoot, people will go to remote areas with early game guns and widely available ammo and shoot hundreds of rounds. Even if you base it on time spent alive, players will simply collect food and water and "incubate" characters.

Any skill system is gameable, and if you introduce skills, you are inviting a certain portion of the player base to figure out ways to game the system. It doesn't matter what specific ruleset you introduce, someone will figure out a way to grind out that skill.

The game does not lack for a skill system. It is not a necessary feature. Survival goals should be oriented around building, equipping and exploring. You introduce skills and it will spawn a third-world industry for grinding those skills. Say hello to players paying chinese gamers to max their character before they play.

You are overestimating the players. "Incubating" made me laugh. It's so boring that even the Chinese gamers will never do this.

About grinding shooting/medicine/everything that needs consumables - there were numerous threads about making everything rarer. MUCH RARER. And I completely support them.

And really, everyone will just survive. IMO, my goal was to make such system that will make grinding very boring. This system should let players easily upgrade the skills during usual gameplay. They just survrive and among with this the skill is getting higher. So grinding is just unnecessary. Also, the grinders will eventually end up at the beach (this is not WoW where lvl 1 has absolutely no chances against level 2), get butthurt and leave.

The skill should not be the law of DayZ, it just assists you in survival, nothing more.

And as the last word: if you still consider everything overpowered, I have nothing to do with you. I don't know how to explain.

[jetao2008@hotmail.com 175]

Skills... Again? No please, thank you.

[Pandemia 4]

How exactly are you going to stop people from grinding a skill that improves based on how much you perform an activity? If you get better the more you shoot, people will go to remote areas with early game guns and widely available ammo and shoot hundreds of rounds. Even if you base it on time spent alive, players will simply collect food and water and "incubate" characters.

Any skill system is gameable, and if you introduce skills, you are inviting a certain portion of the player base to figure out ways to game the system. It doesn't matter what specific ruleset you introduce, someone will figure out a way to grind out that skill.

The game does not lack for a skill system. It is not a necessary feature. Survival goals should be oriented around building, equipping and exploring. You introduce skills and it will spawn a third-world industry for grinding those skills. Say hello to players paying chinese gamers to max their character before they play.

I agree with what you are saying somewhat.... in a sense.

Really what you are saying is "do not implement this because no matter what people will try to, or find out a way to grind the skills". That idea is flawed I think. Just like hacking, no matter what people will try to hack, or will find ways to hack. So what do the creators do? Not make the game to stop the chance of hacking? No. They just keep improving the ideas. They keep improving the security. Same goes for stopping people from grinding.

Honestly it would not be that hard to stop people from grinding in this game. This is not an rpg, grinding would be completely different here.

Subtle and invisible. For example, bandaging if it were to increase efficiency. First off, bandaging a wound would be slow, and possibly fail. Successfully bandaging a wound would say... 'give an x% chance' to 'increase the speed at which you can bandage by x%', 'decrease chance of failure by x%'. Here is the thing though. You will not be able to see any type of skill, you will not be able to notice a difference right away. It will not tell you that you have gained anything. Most importantly, it would be capped off at a realistic level, per day, and by the mastery of it.

If I get a deep cut and go bandage myself. Do I become a master if I keep doing it over and over in one day? No. Do I keep getting noticeably faster every single time no matter what? No. Once I get better at it do I become 100% successful at it? No. Do I go bandage myself with no wounds? No. Do I shoot myself to get better at bandaging? No. Finally, do I practice things to get better at them? Yes. So in a way you are calling training in real life grinding. Which is quite funny to me. Fact is though, it would not be possible to grind in DayZ. You would not have the resources, nor the ability.

It is fucking simple, make it realistic. Your minds are clouded with unrealistic ideas and thoughts. Tell me how many games you play that are highly realistic like DayZ? Practically none i'd bet. This is not like most other shooters or zombie games or rpgs or mmos.

@Fenrig Why post if you are going to say something so pointless and nonconstructive?

Edited August 30, 2012 by Pandemia

[flimsypremise 94]

I agree with what you are saying somewhat.... in a sense.

Really what you are saying is "do not implement this because no matter what people will try to, or find out a way to grind the skills". That idea is flawed I think. Just like hacking, no matter what people will try to hack, or will find ways to hack. So what do the creators do? Not make the game to stop the chance of hacking? No. They just keep improving the ideas. They keep improving the security. Same goes for stopping people from grinding.

Honestly it would not be that hard to stop people from grinding in this game. This is not an rpg, grinding would be completely different here.

Subtle and invisible. For example, bandaging if it were to increase efficiency. First off, bandaging a wound would be slow, and possibly fail. Successfully bandaging a wound would say... 'give an x% chance' to 'increase the speed at which you can bandage by x%', 'decrease chance of failure by x%'. Here is the thing though. You will not be able to see any type of skill, you will not be able to notice a difference right away. It will not tell you that you have gained anything. Most importantly, it would be capped off at a realistic level, per day, and by the mastery of it.

If I get a deep cut and go bandage myself. Do I become a master if I keep doing it over and over in one day? No. Do I keep getting noticeably faster every single time no matter what? No. Once I get better at it do I become 100% successful at it? No. Do I go bandage myself with no wounds? No. Do I shoot myself to get better at bandaging? No. Finally, do I practice things to get better at them? Yes. So in a way you are calling training in real life grinding. Which is quite funny to me. Fact is though, it would not be possible to grind in DayZ. You would not have the resources, nor the ability.

It is fucking simple, make it realistic. Your minds are clouded with unrealistic ideas and thoughts. Tell me how many games you play that are highly realistic like DayZ? Practically none i'd bet. This is not like most other shooters or zombie games or rpgs or mmos.

@Fenrig Why post if you are going to say something so pointless and nonconstructive?

I think you seriously underestimate the lengths to which people will go to get an advantage in a game. And on the topic of hacking, I don't really think it's an inevitability. There are plenty of MMOs that aren't riddled with vulnerabilities. The reason DayZ is vulnerable to hacks is the unsuitability of Arma II to the sort of gameplay Rocket wants to achieve. I think we should expect that the standalone will not be susceptible to hacks.

I don't see any need for skill training. I think future development should focus on fixing bugs, and developing existing mechanics rather than adding new ones. Adding more building interiors is the sort of thing that adds to DayZ without fundamentally changing it. Adding skill sets or specializations will fundamentally change the nature of the game, which I really don't think is necessary. The standalone should be improved version of DayZ, not an entirely different game.

[xximrtwoixx 104]

I agree with what you are saying somewhat.... in a sense.

Really what you are saying is "do not implement this because no matter what people will try to, or find out a way to grind the skills". That idea is flawed I think. Just like hacking, no matter what people will try to hack, or will find ways to hack. So what do the creators do? Not make the game to stop the chance of hacking? No. They just keep improving the ideas. They keep improving the security. Same goes for stopping people from grinding.

Honestly it would not be that hard to stop people from grinding in this game. This is not an rpg, grinding would be completely different here.

Subtle and invisible. For example, bandaging if it were to increase efficiency. First off, bandaging a wound would be slow, and possibly fail. Successfully bandaging a wound would say... 'give an x% chance' to 'increase the speed at which you can bandage by x%', 'decrease chance of failure by x%'. Here is the thing though. You will not be able to see any type of skill, you will not be able to notice a difference right away. It will not tell you that you have gained anything. Most importantly, it would be capped off at a realistic level, per day, and by the mastery of it.

If I get a deep cut and go bandage myself. Do I become a master if I keep doing it over and over in one day? No. Do I keep getting noticeably faster every single time no matter what? No. Once I get better at it do I become 100% successful at it? No. Do I go bandage myself with no wounds? No. Do I shoot myself to get better at bandaging? No. Finally, do I practice things to get better at them? Yes. So in a way you are calling training in real life grinding. Which is quite funny to me. Fact is though, it would not be possible to grind in DayZ. You would not have the resources, nor the ability.

It is fucking simple, make it realistic. Your minds are clouded with unrealistic ideas and thoughts. Tell me how many games you play that are highly realistic like DayZ? Practically none i'd bet. This is not like most other shooters or zombie games or rpgs or mmos.

@Fenrig Why post if you are going to say something so pointless and nonconstructive?

First off I agree that skills, perks, etc whatever you want to call them, something that will make your character have intrinsic value outside of their gear and will make you different from another player do have a place because it is authentic. No two people are the same and being exposed to a scenario where you survival is dependent on your ability to adapt and overcome you will get better or you will die. Lastly it is needed as a check to add value to other characters, and to influence player actions. It is unauthentic to "make it" then go look to lose it all, and thats what player actions consist of now. Specialization and improvement will add value to characters.

Second off you are out of your mind if you think people won't game a system for an advantage. People will grind everything they can, and those that don't will operate at a disadvantage because they don't. This is why improve by doing or repedative action skills will never work. This is why people are against skills because it is a waste of play time to "grind" to many people, also some people don't want to deal with the butt hurt of losing such an investment an old character would represent in such a system. It's much better if they can pick up their skills off of a tool belt and be ready to go.

Look at your proposal, what are you going to cap the daily limit at? The average play time, well some players play way more wtf are they going to risk everything for no reward? Set it at a long play time, well that fucks over all the casual one hour players. There is no way to balance this. Even if they capped loot and gear was uber rare people would still be farming skills, wasting ammo past the point where they know how to opperate the gun without killing themselves and can hit a man size target at 10 ft. Do you want your play session to be however long it takes you to hit your daily skill limit every day? Because that is what would happen if you put a limit in.

What your saying is day in and day out people get better, they are surviving, I agree. I think the system should simply reward survival time, your alive for 1 day in game you get x points to spend. Your alive, so you did something right, thats your reward, you also aren't stuck doing stupid shit to build a certain skill like morrowing fucking jumping everywhere you go. It also can't really be gamed, if your in game you can die, I know if I came across some sob afk I would shoot his ass.

I also think players should be able to pick some skills at spawn, but not just skills, whatever they think they will need to be successfull, gear, skills, spawn location, etc. Its their story let them tell it.

IMO a system needs to be in place to work with skills, for instance your skilled at making fires so you can start a fire cave man style w/nothing. Another player is only a little skilled so he uses a flint/striker, another player has no skill so he uses matches or maybe even gas from a jerry can and matches.

Also aiming is a deal breaker, IMO, I'm all for making it harder for everyone to aim, more sway effects everywere but prone or supported. But I'm not for random effects like spread mechanics that nerf someone because they don't have a number assigned to aiming, thats part of the players skill not the character's skill. I could see being slow to load/release a mag or not knowing the difference between 7.62x51 and 5.56, but if I'm good at aiming I don't want the game to tell me I'm not.

Edited August 31, 2012 by xXI Mr Two IXx

[Pandemia 4]

@flimsypremise

-I do not underestimate at all what people do to cheat / steal / scam / break / gain an advantage in a video game. I've seen it all across so many games, I know the lengths people will go.

Here is the problem. No matter what you will have people trying to do any of these things if they possibly can. That's the way it is, it will never change. You're proposing not to do things because people will find ways around them or go to any length to break it. That is just putting a halt to the possibilities.

Also, you will never stop people from trying to hack. Ever. As such you will never stop people from finding a way to hack, as you said. People go to far lengths to achieve it. But with great security that can be overcome. For example when xbox and ps3 networks got hacked. We saw the difference there.-

@Mr Two and flimsy

-I understand what you are saying, I really do. You see it all the time in tons of games, and people do everything they can to do as I said about breaking / cheating, ect.

However I feel like you both are thinking about things all wrong. You're dismissing ideas because you believe them to be impossible because of people, or because you just do not think it is required. It's almost as if your fighting the possible growth of the game. Just fix the bugs... that's all. You can't do this, you can't do that.

Let me explain something very clearly. If I pull out a handgun and decide to do target practice and I have never done it before. I go outside, set up a target on the tree, get a place I want to fire from, and start going at it. What is going to happen? My first shots are most likely going to suck. My first time reloading is going to be pathetic. I'm going to be slow, uncoordinated, hell I might have trouble dealing with the recoil, or the sound of the weapon.

Most of the basic stuff is quickly gained though, maybe a week, 2 weeks, or even a couple days. Reloading speed is quickly picked up, dealing with recoil, figuring out the aim, mechanics and handling of the weapon. It's all pretty simple and most of it is picked up relatively fast. I won't be a master yet, but I'll have it down, how to fire the weapon more effectively.

NO SKILL SETS FOR PLAYERS. NO GRINDING. Obviously things are done with numbers, and code because its a video game. But It is not hard to stop people from being able to grind in a game like this. Like I said, x% chance of the activity to even give a chance to increase efficiency. This is not final idea, just an idea.

You guys are so fixed on skill sets and grinding. This is NOT an MMO. NOT an RPG. These skills should not be seen and not be absolute.

Basic, simple, subtle things that are just realistic. Things that would happen in a case of survival. They are not just about helping you beat people in pvp. But to help you survive. This is not just a pvp game. It's survival.

It gives a sense of REALISM and worth. A sense of growth to your character.

Edited August 31, 2012 by Pandemia

[hardcoreymp 16]

These systems don't just encourage grinding they encourage taking gamey actions to better assist with grinding. Thus players that *Play* the game but don't have additional time to grind repetative gamey actions or don't get enjoyment out of these non game related actions are punished. There is really no way around this thus I am not for any type of learn as you go system.

Example: medical skills

Shoot friend and then heal friend, over and over.....

Running

Find fence run against fence while afk...

Repairing-

Repair car body, damage car body repair car body....

This isn't playing the game IMO its doing stupid shit to take advantage of a system. If upgradeable skills are included IMO the only way you should get skill points is by the amount of time you've been alive, this is open to exploitation by people leaving their character IG while AFK but there can be idle timers that check if you moved locations, and if people put on auto run and go afk they are taking a big enough risk that I would find it acceptable.

People will exploit. It is in a gamers nature. Duping stuff because they can. Changing ammo to replenish. Remember it is the way a person wants to play the game. You cant stop it and the OP has made a good suggestion.

[hardcoreymp 16]

If people can min/max or take advantage of a system they will, if you don't want them to be able to do so it must be in the basic design of the feature/content otherwise its what people will do. The number of people doing it will slowly increase "becaues everyone else does it" and no one wants to be left behind or realize that sometimes you do operate at a disadvantage. So then everyone just farms everything, and you have WOW and the Devs add more farming features because its easy and keeps people occupied.

You could impose limits on skill growth for a given time period but then people will just afk for a bit between farming sessions, and it would punish people for activley playing for extended periods. I also disagree that having "crappier" skills will have any effect on farming, those that would farm will farm, those that don't want skills or want to play DM in cherno won't do anything to gain skills.

What you could do if someone is doing a repetive task i.e bandaging over and over again... They get tired and it affects the quality of there work thus dropping there ability. Probably too complex to implement though.

[xximrtwoixx 104]

You can stop it, read my post, you simply dont award actions, award a flat rate for time, everyone gets the same for their play time, no grinding. You could try to afk but you have to eat, drink, etc, and you can be found. Could also fix with idle timer.

[Gordon Axeman 191]

I thought about anti-grinding. And this is what I think:

1) Running.

Your char should exhaust much faster and require more food. For now we can run for hours through heavy forests without even getting slower, only stopping to eat and drink. There should be a limit, for example after 15-20 mins you should begin slowing down and if you don't stop, you'll collapse in some time. After that to get up an extra portion of water and some rest is required.

2) Shooting.

Ammo should be much more valuable.

Shooting at nothing will give you REALLY SMALL xp. Shooting at animals - higher, at zeds - high and at players high too.

About more grinding variants: players should scare animals and they should run away. Zeds must pose much more of a threat. Many players requested that and I agree with them completely. I dunno how it has to be done properly - maybe more damaging bites with consequenses (heavy pain, infection etc.), upping the zombie numbers in villages, etc. About players - spawns at the beach are fixed even now. They should be completely random. And people will learn how to avoid grinders-hunters: go into the forest, be more attentive etc. Camping in popular places has the solution already - ppl know the camping spots and watch out.

Pvp whiners - gtfo, I'm not gonna punish bandit playstyle. About KoS - this won't give you much enough to cover the potential friendship bonuses. Even now.

3) Driving.

There were tons of suggestions about fuel scarcity, capturing the fuel stations etc. The second I like, so gas will be really scarce. Want to refuel - pay, or engage the hosts. Both result in serious losses. Maybe you should tire from driving, so the car becomes less controllable. Some will say that you may just change seats with a friend, but this will anyhow lower the skilling speed + one more argument against KoS.

4) Repairing.

Parts should be a little (a LITTLE) harder to find. Also repairing should take time (2-3 mins), all parts except glass should require a toolbox. Also after several rebuilds the effectivity should drop. And IMO, even running is more fun that repairing.

5) Hunting.

Animals should be scared by man's presence and run away. Also they should give less steaks, they are overpowered besides (a cow can give you half health)

6) Medic.

Here are two thoughts:

1. Using a medicine without having an injury is impossible.

2. A limit (4-5 bandages in a hour, even if looting a city with tons of zeds, it's hard to reach it IMO). After reaching the limit, the given xp is either hugely dropped or you get no xp at all. Bandages is just a variable.

What about this?

[Gordon Axeman 191]

People?

[name change 0]

god damn you people are retarded, you still insist on turning day z into some awful generic console game, the same tired old ideas. stat farming...go play Skyrim. idiot.

[Lights Out 141]

I don't mind so much the skill increases but one I don't think you should choose where to add skill points nor should they give you any type of PvP advantage. They should be small things such as being able to harvest more meat from gutting animals after doing it X amount of times or being able to give medical attention more efficiently/effectively after bandaging and giving blood bags to X amount of people.

These things are slight however they give you something to work for which will also help you survive. It also promotes team play as having a person that is good with a particular survival element would be an asset. It gives players worth rather then just the worth of what's in their pack.

Edited September 1, 2012 by Lights Out

[Gordon Axeman 191]

god damn you people are retarded, you still insist on turning day z into some awful generic console game, the same tired old ideas. stat farming...go play Skyrim. idiot.

Read the topic attentively instead of giving such a constructive feedback. idiot

[Pandemia 4]

god damn you people are retarded, you still insist on turning day z into some awful generic console game, the same tired old ideas. stat farming...go play Skyrim. idiot.

Guys like this. This is just....

I give up. Trying to reason or talk with people is ridiculous. "DIS NOT SKYRIMS, NO PUT SAME IDEA IN". That's all I hear out of people anymore, talking like morons.