Suggestion: Ammo system

[ShaDDer 9]

I would like to see a more detailed ammo system with rounds and magazines being separate from each other.

For example you should be allowed to move rounds between magazines (this is not a new suggestion), but also finding magazines should not be equal to finding ammo. I would like to see situations where you have plenty of ammo of a certain caliber (7.62*39 for example) but you have only found one magazine for your AKM so you have to reload your magazine frequently until you find more magazines. This gives more depth in planning your actions and gives more incentive to loot for supplies. Magazines should be more rare than the ammo itself, which should be found in bulk in ammo boxes or as individual rounds on the ground around military areas.

Weapons using the same caliber should be able to use the same ammo, but not the same magazines. The PDW for example should only accept PDW magazines, but you should be able to load those magazines with 9mm rounds from a G17, MP5 or M9 magazine. If you aim for total realism you should be able to load single rounds into a weapon that doesn't even have a magazine, preferably with a slightly faster reload animation than when reloading magazines.

Perhaps individual rounds of a certain caliber could stack in the inventory depending on their relative size. Depending on the ammo it could be more or less useful to load the rounds into magazines before storing them. Example: 5.56 NATO rounds stack 10 per inventory slot, letting you store 20 rounds on 2 slots. Instead you could store 30 rounds in a STANAG magazine which also takes up 2 slots. This way you are punished for storing more ammo than you can effectivly use.

I don't know how the game engine would handle this level of detail since the inventory system itself seems pretty lacking in many aspects. Personally I would not care for animations in the loading of magazines etc, just give the player more options in the aspect of ammo and magazines.

If a similair suggestion have been posted I am sorry for not finding it.

[koze 113]

First person to actually go into detail about it.

Here are my beans.

[lappihuan 26]

Empy Magazines would only be on Military Zed's ;)

[mjoork 0]

To be honest, this just sounds like a nuisance. This idea is pretty much "make it harder to find ammo or reduce the amount of ammo". Lets face it, noone wanna spend 1m+ to reload in battle, people would probably bail from the fight or log out if they wasted their one full mag.

You shouldnt even be able to add two half-empty magazines to one full because having 10 rounds left in your AKM magazine leaves you with the decision "should i reload to get 30 rounds now and risk wasting it on zombies or should i keep the 10 rounds and reload later when i really need it?".

just my 2 cents :)

Edited August 21, 2012 by mjoork

[stupar123 6]

And sometimes on policeman.

[The Cursed Red Baron 6]

old (but perfect) idea, nicely explained :)

Beanz 4 U

[ShaDDer 9]

To be honest, this just sounds like a nuisance. This idea is pretty much "make it harder to find ammo or reduce the amount of ammo". Lets face it, noone wanna spend 1m+ to reload in battle, people would probably bail from the fight or log out if they wasted their one full mag.

You shouldnt even be able to add two half-empty magazines to one full because having 10 rounds left in your AKM magazine leaves you with the decision "should i reload to get 30 rounds now and risk wasting it on zombies or should i keep the 10 rounds and reload later when i really need it?".

just my 2 cents :)

Yes, I think ammo should be a scarce resource in general, but more importantly there should be more to it than just the ammount of ammo you have. Magazines are a real-world part of the weapon and makes all the difference in how you can spend your rounds.

In-game this would mean that you probably will not engage an entire enemy group of several people if you only have one magazine, no matter how full your backpack is with ammo. You would conserve ammo instead of just firing off those last 7 rounds since you don't want to go around with an almost empty mag. As of now, a magazine with just a few rounds is basically useless. Atleast I will throw it away rather than have it take up inventory space.

The "should I reload or not"-problem is an unrealistic one. The question should be: "Should I take the time to put all my left over rounds in to one mag or will I engage the enemy with just ten rounds left?"

Thank you for your input.

Im pretty new to the forums, what exactly is this "you have my beans"? Some kind of "like"-button? In that case: Thank you everybody! :)

Also I like the idea of finding (partially)empty magazines on zombies depending on their rank/tier. Higher tier zombies = higher tier magazines.

On another note I would like generally more realism when it comes to weapons. Jamming for example. Introducing a quality aspect for both guns and ammo would be nice. Jamming should not be a constant concern for the player (remember Far Cry 2? :rolleyes:) unless you have a weapon of low quality combined with ammo of low quality. Perhaps an AKM would not be as prone to jamming as an M16 for example, giving an even deeper aspect to weapons and how you choose to use them.

Example:

High quality AKM and high quality ammo = risk of jamming 0% (never jams).

Medium quality AKM and medium quality ammo = risk of jamming 0.33% (one jam per 300 bullets fired, very rare event)

Low quality M16 with low quality ammo = risk of jamming 5% (one jam per 20 rounds fired, should be a concern)

I'm not saying the above numbers are perfect. I't would just be fun to sometimes worry about the state of your weapon (and ammo). Perhaps you should be able to clean or repair weapons to improve their quality. Perhaps firing the weapon will degrade the quality over time. Perhaps ammo quality is going a bit too far, still think weapon quality is a valid aspect in a game like DayZ.

Edited August 21, 2012 by ShaDDer

[68fbjjz109 1]

I really like your take on the Ammunition situation, and weapon reliability. Weapon maintenance is crucial in harsh environments and a post apocalyptic war torn former Soviet State is certainty one.

Additionally you should be able to fire non subsonic rounds through suppressed weapons. The penalty could be a slightly loader muzzle report, and possible an ominous crack since the round is still breaking the sound barrier. The would cause the Zombies to go to that area, however still mask the shooter. I hate the fact that I cannot shoot full powered loads through suppressed guns as I do it all the time, and it is still very effective at masking shooter position.

To piggie back off weapon reliability shooting weapons suppressed, could effect reliably depending on the weapon. IE, and AR variant rifle gets rather dirty shooting non suppressed due to their gas system, they get filthy shooting suppressed... Where and AK, M14, 249,240 ect, are slightly less prone to the additional carbon because their gas system is piston driven.

In contrast, unless the developers are putting adjustable gas system in the game... sub sonic loads will generally cause non suppressed semi/automatic weapons to malfunction, as they are generally heavy bullets with less powder, therefore in the absence of a suppressor creating back pressure; they cannot cycle a weapon properly.

Edited August 21, 2012 by 68fbjjz109

[ShaDDer 9]

Yes, I would love different loads to affect weapons accordingly. Firing "SD" (sub sonic) rounds in a weapon not suited for the smaller powder load should "jam" every round since it won't cycle the mechanics. This would require an animation for manually cycling a new round, pretty much half the normal reload animation. This way the player can choose to use sub sonic rounds in an AKM for example, basically making the AKM into a less-than-semi-auto sharpshooting rifle.

These are all great ideas however I fear the game engine has limitations. I do hope these things can be implemented later on or in the standalone game.

[68fbjjz109 1]

Also since the majority of the weapons and gear in this game are based of military supplies, Armor Piercing, and Tracer rounds, and for larger calibers... Incinderary rounds. They exist for a reason, and could be surprisingly useful. Especially tracers, they can be used to mark targets/direct fire, they can be placed in magazines say the 25-28 rounds in a AR mag to let you know your almost out ammunition..

In Americas Army, the was a clear function which in the event of a jam, you would hit that key and your character would preform immediate action... for an AR based weapon it was S.P.O.R.T.S.

The animation for immediate action for an M16 and most weapons is very similar to the reload animation, and thus manual cycling of the weapons could exist with little additional work.

Edited August 21, 2012 by 68fbjjz109

[ShaDDer 9]

Also since the majority of the weapons and gear in this game are based of military supplies, Armor Piercing, and Tracer rounds, and for larger calibers... Incinderary rounds. They exist for a reason, and could be surprisingly useful. Especially tracers, they can be used to mark targets/direct fire, they can be placed in magazines say the 25-28 rounds in a AR mag to let you know your almost out ammunition..

In Americas Army, the was a clear function which in the event of a jam, you would hit that key and your character would preform immediate action... for an AR based weapon it was S.P.O.R.T.S.

The animation for immediate action for an M16 and most weapons is very similar to the reload animation, and thus manual cycling of the weapons could exist with little additional work.

Great ideas with the different ammo types. I have been thinking the same way. Tracer rounds should not be a server option (as it is now?), it should be depending on the ammo you use. Tracers can come in handy for many reasons and being able to load magazines in specific arrangements would be great. Perhaps you should get a special "loading magazine screen", showing the magazine in cross section (is that the right word?), your availible ammo types for that magazine and let you load the magazine by simply clicking and then saving the magazine with your custom load, then placing it in "magazine slot X" so you can arrange the magazine order also.

You are spot on about the jamming. Since the animation is basically there already it could be implemented pretty easily I think. Just add a chance to jam based on weapon type and condition and use the reload key or whatever to counter the jam.

[IncrediBurch 22]

I actually think the Ammo system should go the other way where ammo is more general. I realize it's a sacrifice of simulation aspects, but hear me out.

Lump the ammo into the categories of weapons (handgun, shotgun, SMG, Sniper, etc.). Next, keep some of the different versions of ammo (Pellet, Slug, SD) and add some new types (hollow-point, etc.).

Balance this out with having ammo spawns not always being full boxes/magazines. Make the different versions rarer than others, and keep it so some guns can only use different versions. All guns would use the basic ammo at least.

I think this system would be easier from gameplay perspective and a development perspective. Of course, these are developers of a soldier simulator, so I imagine they are just fine with sticking to real-life caliber measurements. Just throwing my thought out there. I'd at least like to see some alternative ammo types for existing weapons.

[lozz08 0]

beeeeeaaannnnnnzzzzz

for you.

[seepra 9]

I actually think the Ammo system should go the other way where ammo is more general. I realize it's a sacrifice of simulation aspects, but hear me out.

Nonononono absolutely not. What's the point if every third box of ammo you found fits your weapon? It's supposed to be about survival and scarce resources in the first place. Besides, being able to swap munitions between magazines of same caliber meant for different weapons would effectively do what you said to some degree, without ruining the realism.

[ShaDDer 9]

The more different weapons and calibers availible the better in my opinion. The trick should be to find ammo that fits with your weapon, or find a weapon for all that ammo you already found. I definately think that ammo should be hard to come by and firing a weapon should mean a risk, both running out of ammo and zombies locating you.

Imagine you got a .22 caliber rifle and lots of ammo. You then find a hunting rifle or similair - your .22 peashooter is inferior. If you should happen to find a .22 pistol on the other hand, you now have a secondary weapon with lots of ammo. I would like to see some crafting implemented as well. Imagine making a .22 suppressor from a plastic bottle and some tape for example. Should lower the sound a bit (shorten the sound radius) but not be silent. Also other suppressed weapons should obviously not be completely silent if theyr'e not suppressed with a high-grade suppressor combined with sub-sonic rounds.

Also the unsuppressed weapons should have a (much) louder report. I recently shot a zombie with the revolver with another zombie just a few yards away and he didn't hear the shot. Firing a weapon seems to aggro only the closest zombies, except for the Enfield. I think you should feel hindered by the risk that zombies might spot you. You should have to wheigh the pros and cons before opening fire.

[seepra 9]

I think just weapon attachments like screw-on suppressors to weapons that already have a screw- or bayonet-mount and sights would make the weapons diverse enough, especially if you can mess around with magazines and bullet types.. I don't think a Minecraft-esque "craft a fuckton of stuff" would really suit the game.

[Securion 9]

I usually promote realism heavily and emphatically, but when it comes to ammo and magazines im more of the "Lets have it like in Battlefield 3"-type of guy. Having to remember how many bullets i have in each mag is like adding "Go to the toilet". Sure. its realistic. But is it needed to make the game feel realistic? I dont think so.

[Frozen (DayZ) 144]

Weapons using the same caliber should be able to use the same ammo, but not the same magazines. The PDW for example should only accept PDW magazines, but you should be able to load those magazines with 9mm rounds from a G17, MP5 or M9 magazine. If you aim for total realism you should be able to load single rounds into a weapon that doesn't even have a magazine, preferably with a slightly faster reload animation than when reloading magazines.

Perhaps individual rounds of a certain caliber could stack in the inventory depending on their relative size. Depending on the ammo it could be more or less useful to load the rounds into magazines before storing them. Example: 5.56 NATO rounds stack 10 per inventory slot, letting you store 20 rounds on 2 slots. Instead you could store 30 rounds in a STANAG magazine which also takes up 2 slots. This way you are punished for storing more ammo than you can effectivly use.

1. some weapons can use magazines that made for another guns

2. dont see any reson to punish that, because the ammo without magazine takes a bit less volume as i with it.

also if ammo and magazines will become separate, i want to see option to load 1 cartridge directly into chamber.

this changes will make guns that has nondetachable magazines(cz 550, revolver, remington etc) more desirable

[ShaDDer 9]

1. some weapons can use magazines that made for another guns

2. dont see any reson to punish that, because the ammo without magazine takes a bit less volume as i with it.

also if ammo and magazines will become separate, i want to see option to load 1 cartridge directly into chamber.

this changes will make guns that has nondetachable magazines(cz 550, revolver, remington etc) more desirable

In this thread I mentioned the use of single rounds in lack of magazines, and I wish it be implemented but with the Arma 2 engine it may be difficult I am afraid (no expert but by just looking at the game...).

However I think this is the way to go about guns and ammo in DayZ. You are not supposed to find an AKM with three magazines the first thing you do in a post apocalyptic world. You might find an AK in some time, but then you need ammo and until then you are supposed to survive with whatever the wasteland gives you. May it be a hand-made shotgun, made from a pipe and a nail. May it be a 9mm pistol that someone left in his house. Anyway I think guns and ammo should be more diverse in types and also less common. Having a group of four people should mean you have to split up weapons and ammo between you. As it is now you just pick your friends up and if they are under equipped you just make a run for military gear and everyone is Rambo in ten minutes. I want more "YES!" feeling when I find guns and ammo, not just "Oh, just another glock mag, nah I'll leave it".

Edited August 27, 2012 by ShaDDer

[liquidcactus 719]

Ive thought of this idea many times and yes sir i likes it !