DayZ has become Deathmatch / Team Deathmatch

[ArrThePirate 13]

I made a post about this a few dayz ago (before the patch) but it's now buried. It was a suggestion on how to use the humanity system and to NOT remove the bandit skins. Why? In real life, the are consecuences and prices to pay for absolutely everything, some people call it Karma, some others call it Divine justice, and humans created their own laws and justice systems. "For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction." "What goes araound, comes around", "Who lives by the swod, dies by the sword", etcetera.

So how is this a mod realism if there are no consecuences for your actions? I read some post saying "well, people fighting for resources, what a surprise!". Please tell me what game are you playing? In the game I'm playing, many players stay in Cherno and Elektro shooting everyone just for killing. They don't give a shit about resources, they stand on top of a tall building and write on the chat: "Any friendlies in Cherno?" A noob player approaches you looking for company and gets shot in the face, "LOLOLOL" writes the scumbag who killed him. What resources are you talking about when this happens? An asshole lied to a new player and killed him with a sniper rifle and NVG to steal his Beans? Yeah, makes sense!, the only thing is, they do that for hours, and they never take anything from anyone, it's just griefing and trolling. You want to be a Bandit and ruin other people's games? It should not be as easy as it is right now.

DO NOT remove the PVP element of the game, DO NOT nerf bandits' aim or mobility, just as many notorious scum on this earth is identifyable (the Yakuza, american gangs like the Bloods or the Crips, the MS13), make them look different, so people know whether to avoid them, or to shoot then on sight, and all these stories about survivors being illed after helping someone (even after adding them as friends on Steam and playing for a few days) will be over.

[Steve McAwesome 6]

But karma and divine justice....they aren't real! Otherwise scumbags wouldn't prosper....like real life. Also, you can't tell if someone is 'good ' or 'bad' by looking at them...

Like real life. Game is fine as is. No need to artificially modify things or 'punish' bandits. Cherno and elektro are for desthmatch and noon baiting. If you can't handle getting murdered for your beans on the coast, go elsewhere.

[demine0 43]

You know... Once the Zombie AI is improved a little more, it would be interesting to see how this Death Match Style play would hold up on a server where the number of zombies was 3 or 4 times as high as the other servers. I imagine more people would stick together and work together considering you kinda would have to in order to survive...

[ArrThePirate 13]

But karma and divine justice....they aren't real! Otherwise scumbags wouldn't prosper....like real life. Also' date=' you can't tell if someone is 'good ' or 'bad' by looking at them...

Like real life. Game is fine as is. No need to artificially modify things or 'punish' bandits. Cherno and elektro are for desthmatch and noon baiting. If you can't handle getting murdered for your beans on the coast, go elsewhere.

[/quote']

If not 'divine' there definitely are consucuences when you are a scumbag. Just search on google for stories about Bloods and Crips, the italian mafia, drug gangs from Mexico and Colombia. What happened to Pablo Escobar? More than 12,000 people died in Mexico the past year on organized crime related murders. How is that prosperous?

[Tassadarh 2]

But karma and divine justice....they aren't real! Otherwise scumbags wouldn't prosper....like real life. Also' date=' you can't tell if someone is 'good ' or 'bad' by looking at them...

Like real life. Game is fine as is. No need to artificially modify things or 'punish' bandits. Cherno and elektro are for desthmatch and noon baiting. If you can't handle getting murdered for your beans on the coast, go elsewhere.

[/quote']

If not 'divine' there definitely are consucuences when you are a scumbag. Just search on google for stories about Bloods and Crips, the italian mafia, drug gangs from Mexico and Colombia. What happened to Pablo Escobar? More than 12,000 people died in Mexico the past year on organized crime related murders. How is that prosperous?

If you are right and this actually happens when why to make a mechanic about it? It will happen without need to force it.

Some survivors will always manage to kill a bandit. That's your Karma.

BTW I definely disagree with you... look at the italian mafia in italy or some Nazi WW2 criminals. They get away with their crimes and lived happily ever after.

[ArrThePirate 13]

BTW I definely disagree with you... look at the italian mafia in italy or some Nazi WW2 criminals. They get away with their crimes and lived happily ever after.

The italian mafia is a term used to identify italian orginized crime, many different gangs or groups have existed and also gave birht to the american mafia groups, which are several. As for the 'lived happily ever after', are you telling me that NONE of the individuals involved in crime has ever been murdered or jailed? They don't have to watch their backs from the police and other gangs? People DO NOT know who they are or how do they look like? So we all know they exist, but nobody nas seen them or can identify them?

So let's say Hitler is a Bandit. Would you not be able to recognize him if you find him in an abandoned super market? Just like criminals in real life can't get rid of their faces, appearence and reputation, neither should Bandits.

These are the Bloods: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloods and they have a 'dress code', they wear Red clothes that identify them http://blogs.laweekly.com/informer/rapdict%20org%20pueblo%20bishop%20bloods.JPG So let's say that these guys tell you "I'm in cherno and I'm friendly" would you get close to them to get some beans?

[Krusteh 1]

I think the problem is that preying on other players is too easy. There is no real downside. No death messages for players to infer who the shooter was, very easy to hide well and get the drop on players, easy to use an equipment advantage against other more recently spawned players, easy to loot a player you killed from hiding...and log off. Easy to log off if you engage in any fight in which you don't have an overwhelming advantage. In real-life you would have word of mouth ultimately catching up with you in a locale. In real-life people can only be trusted when you will have a series of recurring interactions with those folks.

I actually thought the bandit skins were a good idea.....but they should kick in after you killed (not in defense) many more players...maybe 10 or more. 5 kills could happen in defending yourself and by quirks in the system. But persistently doing so should have some penalty. Make it more difficult for others to trust you...etc.

But the game should allow all types of play. Playing as a bandit isn't wrong. Its a fundamental part of the game. but its just too easy right now....there should be some trade-offs.

I tend to play by a strict but aggressive fire second policy. Though previously I would tend to kill bandits on site if I had the drop on them. I do position myself to get the drop on others...but typically with the purpose of forming up teams. For me playing in a team is more fun.

Had a good time with WUB PUGS yesterday. learned a bit about the northern coast and this mod which I am relatively new to. Seems it was an area I largely neglected in my past play of ARMA and chernaus life. What tree stand has such nonsense for loot. I want to understand how coming down a ladder with a flare out results in a broken leg. Lets just say a broken leg in the midst of a field of zombies doesn't work out too well.....that flare I tossed before I had lost the chance to switch to pistol..merely accidental,ineffective fireworks...

It was a nice change after several running battles in elektro with bandits. spending a day fully kitted with a horde of medical supplies teaming up with my buddy, getting him kitted, then getting sniped from a bandit in hiding in the wilderness while deciding where to head next. realistic yes. too easy...certainly. Must juggle balance between play and realism.

[Zoop 343]

Though previously I would tend to kill bandits on site if I had the drop on them.

And how does this make you better than the 'shoot on sight' people? How do you know when someone is an accidental bandit or a real bandit?

[Tassadarh 2]

I was talking about the Italian Mafia, meaning mafia in italy (Cosa Nostra, N'drangheta, Camorra Sacra Corona Unita etc).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernardo_Provenzano

I think this guy has spent more time doing crimes than in jail. He kinda "chose" to go to prison, smiling like "meh I'm old I don't care".

Of course they had to watch their backs (don't bandits do the same? Don't we ALL do the same?).. but that's a bit different situation. In the world we have a system of laws and ways for enforcing the law.

Remove that.

What are you gonna do? Call da police?

All we need to do is to create an actual server community and report the bandits.

Just use the mouse wheel and find out the name of the bandit. It's not that hard =)

I know that some people might be a bit disappointed to see all their effort disappear when a random bandit shoot them in the face... but that's a part of the game and a BIG part of "post-apocalyptic world setting". We need to enhance the social factor of the game. Better way to communicate and put some effort on being a part of the community.

[trichome (DayZ) 198]

I think now that you don't know who is who is far better and more realistic and should stay. irl you don't know if a stranger can be trusted or not why should dayz be any different. Every situation is different and you have to weigh up the situation your in at the time.

If I need food and water and there's a store with 5-6 zeds outside it and a lone dude futher down the street it would be easier for me to take the dude out and loot him rather than risk a hord attack. I could take the risk of trusting him only to get shot in the back( which has happend to me).

It's a tough choice that will get much tougher depending on what stuff you have and where you are on the map.

[ArrThePirate 13]

I think now that you don't know who is who is far better and more realistic and should stay. irl you don't know if a stranger can be trusted or not why should dayz be any different. Every situation is different and you have to weigh up the situation your in at the time.

If I need food and water and there's a store with 5-6 zeds outside it and a lone dude futher down the street it would be easier for me to take the dude out and loot him rather than risk a hord attack. I could take the risk of trusting him only to get shot in the back( which has happend to me).

It's a tough choice that will get much tougher depending on what stuff you have and where you are on the map.

I'm totally in favor of the PVP element/Bandit system to stay, it's true that it adds something special to the game. But as I said before, in real life, you can get away with a few 'crimes' but if you keep doing it you build a reputation sooner or later. You trust someone and he kills you, and then he kilss 10 more people, that has to earn you some reputation, you can't go forever unknown doing bad shit to people.

[pvtjohn 0]

I have been thinking about this overnight, and I have some suggestions.

First, though, I think the spawn delay punishment is a bit dumb. It is just not respectful of people's real lives. We want people to play.

It is entirely rational for someone to be a bandit as things now stand. This risks turning the game into deathmatch. However, I think the spawn delay sounds like a terrible solution. I am not fond of any sort of deus ex machina punishment system that makes a moral judgement and tries to punish. A system that makes sense within the context of this universe, hopefully mimicking real life, would be ideal. In real life, for every choice, there is a consequence.

Some kind of reputation system would mimic real life best. If there really were only 50 people in an area the size of Chernarus, people would get to know things.... You'd hear things like "Those three brothers with the red hair around Vyborg are scum, stay away or shoot on site."

Since that's not really possible with thousands of players who can easily server-hop, the game needs to compensate and provide some kind of game-world equivalent. Bandit skins were one attempt. If we went back to that, I'd say make it a bit harder to get a bandit skin, and also make it go away over time. Base it on a rolling 15 or 30 day average of murders/day, or something like that.

An even better way to implement a reputation system would be to color code the cursor when a player is spotted. His name is green if he's relatively free of murders in the last X number of days, yellow if he's somewhere in the middle, and red if he's one of most notorious bandits. I would think of this in terms of a bell curve distribution, with green being fairly exceptional and red being fairly exceptional (perhaps the lower 15% and upper 15% in murders per hour played). There would be no consequences for shooting someone in the red -- perhaps even a benefit (as shooting a notorious murdering psychopath in a community would indeed be looked upon positvely).

I think this solution would have the following benefits: 1) Easy to implement and try out; 2) Mimic real life consequences; 3) Since most people (70%) would be yellow, it would preserve the mystery/surprise/nervousness when meeting people, and thus the feel of the game would remain unchanged.

Bandits would be free to play their game the way they like -- it would be a choice they make, and it would have consequences (just like being too trusting has consequences). Those that complained that the old bandit skin system was too "black and white" (and they had a point) would have their conerns addressed. It would not be easy to stay green, and it would not be easy to become a bandit. Most people would be yellow, and therefore a bit of a mystery. You'd have to work with them and get to know them to build trust.

One other suggestion someone made in this thread sounded very interesting. That is, that for the very worst (think the people that just kill for fun, not to loot, not even pre-emptive self-defense), they begin to hear things that aren't there. When in the woods, perhaps they'd hear someone suddenly crashing through the forest, or in the city zombies that aren't there. Someone that made that many enemies in real life could very well start to get paranoid (I mean medical paranoia, not simply a healthy caution around others).

[Zoop 343]

There is no organized police force. There is no order. This is the apocalypse.

Who is going to enforce justice and bring criminals to heel?

[Horr1d 7]

Agree with the OP, but this is because the zombie AI is currently terrible and no real threat. If you were under constant fear of the zombies, just as equal as bandit attacks, you would see way more coop play. Until then, see you on the beach when I steal your beans

[Arnoldio 2]

Yes' date=' I'm not a fan of a cool down timer but I have to ask... What does a 12-24hour cool down accomplish that a 5-10minute timer doesn't? Has the same "hold up buddy" effect without the "I just ruined my day off" aftertaste.

[/quote']

12-24 hr is way overboard. 5-10 min is way underboard (sp?). It's "guess I'll grab a drink". What's wrong with an hour? It's not too long, so survivors don't get boned as well, and it's long enough that anyone that mindlessly TKs will get tired of the hour spawn and be less likely to mindlessly TK. Maybe they'll be smart as they TK. That would be fun.

But this game doesnt need a "hold up buddy" effect. It needs the "youre fucking dead" effect. 1h is too little, you go play something else, and then come back. No real impact.

Would it be possible to make some sort of sanity loss thingy for the mass murderers? For example you'd be ok if you kill just a few people (1 to 4 or so). With more murders you'd start to go paranoid and "see/hear" things e.g. distant gunshot noices etc.

Because now it's like "lol killed ya hahahahaa" and the killers life goes on unchanged. You'd think that murdering someone would have some effect on brain level.

I am against artificial factors. It sounds good' date=' but the real achievent would be for the palyers to feel that for himself by a net of more subtle "undercover" game mechanics that arent directly affecting the player.

Oh noes, this is the zombie apocalypse! We ought to work together or I'll kick you out of the server! Why on earth we should kill each other?

Yeah.

During the apocalypse people will work together for sure.

Yeah.

Yes, yes, Mr. John Rambo. You would be the first one to cry in the corner holding tight to your friends and family. What, if your country gets invaded, you will just go grab a gun off a dead soldier and join your forces? Uhuh.

[pvtjohn 0]

There is no organized police force. There is no order. This is the apocalypse.

Who is going to enforce justice and bring criminals to heel?

That's a great point. We have seen many periods like this in history. In the American old West, where the law was often hundreds of miles away, people would gather up a posse, find that cattle rustler and string him up right there. I can give other examples if you like.

Human beings don't like seeing their friends and love ones repeatedly killed or raped or robbed. They get together, find the culprit, and kill him.

See my post above for a solution :)

[Sveglia 2]

Respawn over hours it's not fair, for anyone really, and certainly not fun.

One thing you can actually do is, every time you killed another human being (survivor or bandit) you gain X ammount of aggro, more killings = more aggro, making the game harder because of your decision to take a life.

Go "hurr durr serial killer on bean coast" and your aggro goes up to the roof... and then I want to see you trying getting to a city to grab some food or whatever, you better team up boy. And by doing so (cooperating, help another guy, etc) you decrease, let's say, half that aggro you initially get.

So truly survivors won't have problems reducing fast that aggro they gain for killing a bandit, and in the other hand you put bandits in a nice spot, if they kill, they better be a good player... "If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough".

This will only work if they put more zeds around (and by doing that they fix the "not enough zeds" "zeds are easy now" problem), put them not only in towns, you need to be watching over your shoulder all the time, and even more if you're a murderer.

Altought there are certains things to check and fix before going this way, group of bandits helping each other continuously and exploiting the "decrease aggro" system, lone wolves (survivors or bandits) also need a chance to reduce their aggro on their own (but helping other indirectly at least) and hundreds of others things, but I really believe this is the way to go, not intrusive, not unfair, and the decision (as the consequences) is in YOUR hands all the time, so think twice before kill that guy.

[CosmicOsmo 1]

The real issue that should be addressed, the one that breaks immersion and realism, is that people don't value their own lives. So how do we get people to value their life, as if it is their one and only life? Here's an idea. I may or may not have lifted it from Diablo...

Split servers into 'ladder' and 'normal'

Every 2 week 'season', you can only spawn once on ladder servers. If you die, you have to play on normal servers until the next ladder season reset. Suddenly people will value their lives on the ladder and not rush around playing Makarov Kamikaze 2012. They will still attempt to snipe eachother for laughs, and will still backstab eachother for beans, but these are essential elements of DayZ. Suicide makarov battles are not.

Perhaps there can be some sort of ladder standings to show off how long (online-time) ladder players have survived, or some other incentive to try to stay alive on ladder (ladder-only vehicles? special skins for surviving X hours during a ladder season?). Or perhaps the fact that Makarov Deathmatch exists on the normal servers would be incentive enough to stay alive on the ladder.

With current mechanics, it would be very easy to survive out in the middle of nowhere on the ladder, so people will do this just to top the standings. Zombie spawns in wilderness and/or tweaks to the temperature system can balance this out, to make surviving hard everywhere.

I think this is a better option than an X hour respawn, because it rasises the stakes on the ladder even higher (2 week respawn) while still allowing you to at least play the game, even if you're dying.

[Arnoldio 2]

But why dividing stuff with some ladders and whatnot, when everybody would play on normal servers then. I tell you, big ass spawntime for everybody. And how is not fair. Its equal for everybody, its much more fair than spawning into the workd and getting killed for shits and laughts 5 seconds later. Not that i have been, but apparently somepeople were.

If your ladder system was implemented, and if i were a prick, i would deliberately go to a ladder server and take as many survivors/bandits down with me as i can, just to prevent them on playing there, and be the boss, and then continue on normals.

[Krusteh 1]

I don't think it has anything to so with valuing your life. In fact most of the folks who would kill on sight are the better kitted out folks who have been playing that life for a long time. the newly spawned with nothing to lose folks might be more liable to plunder, but most of the folks they encounter at first are the same as them...ie they would be better off teaming up

The ladder idea not so great..for that reason, and there are already too few servers.

With regards to a login delay...I think thats an unfair imposition of folks real lives...folks who just want to play the game. it also makes judgements about how you play the game which the game itself should not...not when its a valid way to play the game.

Some folks are angry about how bandits play the game and want to impose limits or punishments on them for that. That's a bad way to go thinking about it. playing as a bandit is just one option in the game. Every option should have advantages and disadvantages associated with it. Playing one way or the other shouldn't provide overwhelming incentives one way or the other....but should have repercussions with how your game plays out. Otherwise it will be team death match with the teams joined up in some voip channel who already know themselves....and no one will team up with strangers ever..that would get old fast. Just as old as being pegged as a murderer if you ever killed another player and being shot on sight then on out. Then no one does so and that gets old too.

Pvt.John a old clan mate of mine from a different game makes good points and more eloquently than I ever could. While I am not in complete agreement I do think some consequences should exist for indiscriminate player killing, and I really like his idea of redemption....ways for reclaiming your humanity.

In response to the following:

"And how does this make you better than the 'shoot on sight' people? How do you know when someone is an accidental bandit or a real bandit?"

I never said it did and I wasn't passing judgement...just mentioning how I tend to play.

[tkgwheeler 3]

Delays to logging in to servers after death won't alter the perceived value of other players lives, only your own. Therefore you will be even more likely to shoot on sight to avoid lengthy waits. If you want more co-op play and/or less shoot on sight then the value of another player's life should increase.

However..

I don't think anyone can know for sure which alterations will work and which won't, the important thing is for everyone here to be willing to try them out whilst also having a clear understanding of the initial hypothesis or goal of that change.

[Zoop 343]

That's a great point. We have seen many periods like this in history. In the American old West' date=' where the law was often hundreds of miles away, people would gather up a posse, find that cattle rustler and string him up right there. I can give other examples if you like.

Human beings don't like seeing their friends and love ones repeatedly killed or raped or robbed. They get together, find the culprit, and kill him.

See my post above for a solution :)

[/quote']

That's my point. It's up to the players to sort out the bandits. The players keep whining about bandits being 'unbalanced' and that they should be 'punished'.

How about the players do the punishing? The mod is all about forcing players to adapt to situations and deal with them as they pop up. People whining that the devs need to change the game simply because the players are too lazy to adapt are being overly silly.

[bovine3dom 0]

People seem to just be dismissing the respawn timer idea with "wah wah it's not fair", or words to that effect. I'm not saying that there are no flaws, but people are dismissing it out of hand without considering it fully (as I did initially, although I had the good manners not to post until I had thought it through).

Why shouldn't dying ruin your day? You already loose all your gear.

Regarding realism, I'm pretty sure taking a bullet to the face - or knee - would ruin anyone's day. And let me remind you that a truly realistic server would just ban you when you died :D

A 10 minute respawn timer is just a coffee break. A 12/18 hour timer would force you to stop playing for a day and give you time to think overnight about why you died.

For clarity, I don't like the idea of a respawn timer whose length is based on your humanity as it unfairly puts bandits at a disadvantage.

[oktyabr 53]

I can't believe people actually think some sort of many hour re-spawn timer would be beneficial. Apply that to any other game you play and ask your self if it would work. BF3? CoD? EVE? WoW? No one would play it, except for those that found a way to exploit it (sooner or later someone would).

[-LF-Nym 0]

There wouldn't be any "carebears" or "elitist assholes" or anything... IF this were *truly* a zombie apocalypse instead of some kind of fucked up zoo tour with guns. All that secondary bullshit goes away like flipping on the windshield washers in a cloud of locusts... You can see again. Who gives a fuck if player A killed five guys in the last minute on the beach... when you have a hundred zombies on your ass. You either team up or die alone' date=' it's YOUR choice.

Fuck loads more zombies (rocket said 3000 should be possible) and NO where safe to go (that's zombies in the woods and on the roads for you guys that don't get it.) IS the answer.

[/quote']

I love being a bandit in this game but, What you said is exactly what I think this game is missing. Cities should not be breachable without having to group up and mow some Zeds down. Raising the Zombie count in cities to a vary large number forces players to be more friendly because you gain a common interest. Staying alive. Currently 1 person can raid an entire city slip in unnoticed and back out unnoticed pretty quickly and easily. Up the Zombie count in major cities and you will start to see players band together just to try and make attempts at entering the city.

Had a guild mate literally running around cherno grabbing every zombie he could by himself then running into a room and shooting them all down. Because he had no fear of being hurt because there were just so few. It took him hours just to kill 150-200 Zeds. He was running around the middle of cherno this is just wrong, there should be Zeds EVERYWHERE.