Thoughts on Bandages

[bellicosity 0]

Was wondering what everyone else's thoughts were on making it so bandages cannot be used on yourself? Or they simply slow the loss of blood if used on yourself, not stop it. It would take another player to completely stop the loss of blood.

Thoughts?

Edit: Some clarification on the idea...

You would bandage yourself, but you would lose a small amount of blood per minute continually until someone else helped you.

You might think this excessive, but take this for example:

John Doe is a new player, gets hit and brought down to 10000 blood before bandaging. At 10 blood loss per minute, he has ~8 hours to find help before he gets below 5000 blood. At 25, that number goes to ~3 hours. Even at 50 blood loss per minute he has 1.5 hours to find help before he goes below 5000. All this is not counting ingested food.

Basically you have per 1000 blood

~1.6 hours at 10 loss per minute

~50 minutes at 20 loss per minute

~25 minutes at 40 loss per minute

Thats a lot of damn time to find help even at the extreme high of 40 blood loss per minute.

[jorgamun 2]

I think this is a very awful idea. Why should someone not be able to bandage themself?

[bellicosity 0]

I think this is a very awful idea. Why should someone not be able to bandage themself?

I assume you've never had a somewhat serious wound you had to bandage yourself? Its incredibly difficult to do at all in some locations, and even harder to do well.

The reason I bring it up though is that it will A) Make zombie encounters extremely dangerous by yourself and B) Be another method to encourage teamwork.

[jorgamun 2]

You assume incorrectly. It's not incredibly difficult to do. Hell, they teach you how to do it in Boy Scouts.

If you're talking about gunshot wounds, if the realism scale is tipped that far then nobody will ever heal from a gunshot wound practically ever. They almost always result in death without true medical attention. Your buddy Joe survivor doesn't have that much more capability of taking care of your innards than you do.

Also, why should the mod encourage teamwork? That's not the point of it - the point is more or less to have no point.

[bellicosity 0]

You assume incorrectly. It's not incredibly difficult to do. Hell' date=' they teach you how to do it in Boy Scouts.

If you're talking about gunshot wounds, if the realism scale is tipped that far then nobody will ever heal from a gunshot wound practically ever. They almost always result in death without true medical attention. Your buddy Joe survivor doesn't have that much more capability of taking care of your innards than you do.

[/quote']

Yeah but Boy Scouts expects you to get proper medical care. Thats what Im talking about. They teach you a stopgap, nothing else.

This would illustrate that, you can slow/stop the majority of the problem, but you still need help.

And by no means do I think something like losing a 100 blood per minute is a good 'slow' drain, but something like 10, 15, 25 maybe? Something to give you incentive to seek help, but by no means are you in any immediate danger anymore.

Edit: And this is more to increase the difficulty of zombie encounters than encourage teamwork. Getting ganked by zombies would be a big deal by yourself.

[jorgamun 2]

You assume incorrectly. It's not incredibly difficult to do. Hell' date=' they teach you how to do it in Boy Scouts.

If you're talking about gunshot wounds, if the realism scale is tipped that far then nobody will ever heal from a gunshot wound practically ever. They almost always result in death without true medical attention. Your buddy Joe survivor doesn't have that much more capability of taking care of your innards than you do.

[/quote']

Yeah but Boy Scouts expects you to get proper medical care. Thats what Im talking about. They teach you a stopgap, nothing else.

This would illustrate that, you can slow/stop the majority of the problem, but you still need help.

And by no means do I think something like losing a 100 blood per minute is a good 'slow' drain, but something like 10, 15, 25 maybe? Something to give you incentive to seek help, but by no means are you in any immediate danger anymore.

Actually, now I'm liking your idea way more. 10+ per minute from self bandaging without getting help from someone who has something like a medical reference book (new tool perhaps?) would be a very neat idea for grievous wounds.

[bellicosity 0]

Actually' date=' now I'm liking your idea way more. 10+ per minute from self bandaging without getting help from someone who has something like a medical reference book (new tool perhaps?) would be a very neat idea for grievous wounds.

[/quote']

I dont mind them having another tool or not, but it should definitely not be a 'oh I got hit by a zombie and am bleeding a little, let me patch that on up...'

[feriluce 2]

This is a pretty awful idea. Basically if you ever start bleeding as a solo player you might as well just respawn immediately instead of dragging out the inevitable.

[bellicosity 0]

This is a pretty awful idea. Basically if you ever start bleeding as a solo player you might as well just respawn immediately instead of dragging out the inevitable.

Not really.

Take a 10 blood loss per minute for a new survivor who happens to lose say 2000 blood. They are now at 10000 blood. They have ~8 hours to find someone to help them before they get below 5000 blood. Thats not counting getting food in them either.

Make it 25 blood per minute, and its now ~3 hours.

[jorgamun 2]

This is a pretty awful idea. Basically if you ever start bleeding as a solo player you might as well just respawn immediately instead of dragging out the inevitable.

I thought so at first too, but read a bit more into the thread and see how the idea developed. It's not a bad idea, the loss of blood isn't that significant, just a presence for major wounds.

[feriluce 2]

This is a pretty awful idea. Basically if you ever start bleeding as a solo player you might as well just respawn immediately instead of dragging out the inevitable.

Not really.

Take a 10 blood loss per minute for a new survivor who happens to lose say 2000 blood. They are now at 10000 blood. They have ~8 hours to find someone to help them before they get below 5000 blood. Thats not counting getting food in them either.

Make it 25 blood per minute' date=' and its now ~3 hours.

[/quote']

And that is why I'm saying you might as well just respawn. Everything you do in those 3/8 hours is inevitably pointless, as you have literally no way of preventing it as a solo player.

Rewarding teamplay is fine, but severely punishing solo play isn't.

[melbo 3]

Was wondering what everyone else's thoughts were on making it so bandages cannot be used on yourself? Or they simply slow the loss of blood if used on yourself' date=' not stop it. It would take another player to completely stop the loss of blood.

Thoughts?

[/quote']

Not trying to put down your idea, Bellicosity but...

I have been in situations where men with bi-lateral leg amputations and sometimes even when 3 limbs have been amputed, the casualties are able to apply their own CAT's (http://www.combattourniquet.com/) AND FFD's (http://www.kitmonster.co.uk/images/IDF-Bandage-LRG.jpg).

You would be suprised what the human body can do when in that kind of situation.

[DudelyPowers 0]

Put solo players into a position where their survival absolutely depends on a stranger.

A stranger with unknown intentions.

While they are weak and desperate from blood loss.

No thanks.

You know, if you want to be really realistic, practically any gunshot wound in a post-apocalyptic scenario like this will result either in losing a limb or death. A gunshot wound anywhere in the torso? May as well just swig some vodka or something and then turn your Makarov on yourself. There is literally nothing else you can do to avoid a slow death from infection.

I don't know about you, but that level of realism doesn't sound very fun to me.

[bellicosity 0]

This is a pretty awful idea. Basically if you ever start bleeding as a solo player you might as well just respawn immediately instead of dragging out the inevitable.

Not really.

Take a 10 blood loss per minute for a new survivor who happens to lose say 2000 blood. They are now at 10000 blood. They have ~8 hours to find someone to help them before they get below 5000 blood. Thats not counting getting food in them either.

Make it 25 blood per minute' date=' and its now ~3 hours.

[/quote']

And that is why I'm saying you might as well just respawn. Everything you do in those 3/8 hours is inevitably pointless, as you have literally no way of preventing it as a solo player.

Rewarding teamplay is fine, but severely punishing solo play isn't.

You eat at least once per hour, which is at least 200 blood. If you eat more often, you can increase the time you have to seek help.

---

Was wondering what everyone else's thoughts were on making it so bandages cannot be used on yourself? Or they simply slow the loss of blood if used on yourself' date=' not stop it. It would take another player to completely stop the loss of blood.

Thoughts?

[/quote']

Not trying to put down your idea, Bellicosity but...

I have been in situations where men with bi-lateral leg amputations and sometimes even when 3 limbs have been amputed, the casualties are able to apply their own CAT's (http://www.combattourniquet.com/) AND FFD's (http://www.kitmonster.co.uk/images/IDF-Bandage-LRG.jpg).

You would be suprised what the human body can do when in that kind of situation.

But they still need someone else's help if they want to survive much further past the initial serious treatment... Thats the point.

Put solo players into a position where their survival absolutely depends on a stranger.

While they are weak and desperate from blood loss.

No thanks.

They are not in extreme danger of death, they are just in a position where they have to trust someone.

Even in real life everyone needs helps. In a apocalypse like this game you will definitely get injured to the point that you need someone else's help to bring you back from the abyss.

As is stands right now, there is never that fear in this game. You can single handedly heal yourself from damn near 0 to perfect.

[feriluce 2]

This is a pretty awful idea. Basically if you ever start bleeding as a solo player you might as well just respawn immediately instead of dragging out the inevitable.

Not really.

Take a 10 blood loss per minute for a new survivor who happens to lose say 2000 blood. They are now at 10000 blood. They have ~8 hours to find someone to help them before they get below 5000 blood. Thats not counting getting food in them either.

Make it 25 blood per minute' date=' and its now ~3 hours.

[/quote']

And that is why I'm saying you might as well just respawn. Everything you do in those 3/8 hours is inevitably pointless, as you have literally no way of preventing it as a solo player.

Rewarding teamplay is fine, but severely punishing solo play isn't.

You eat at least once per hour, which is at least 200 blood. If you eat more often, you can increase the time you have to seek help.

What would it really accomplish though, apart from forcing some people to do what they dont really want to do? By forcing the players hand you get a situation where he goes "Aw dammit, now I HAVE to do this thing". That is not good. The player feels forced to do something he doesn't wanna do and gets frustrated with the game.

Instead you have to build your game in a way that makes the player want to do whatever you want him to do, without forcing him to do so.

Blood bags is an example of that in the game currently. It is possible to regain your blood without one, but it is much more convenient to use than eating tons of food. That gives an incentive to work together.

Its obviously not enough to really facilitate teamwork, but the bandage idea wouldn't be either.

[alex.vague@gmail.com 0]

Military medic here. Using dressings, bandages, hemostatic agents and tourniquets most bleeding can be stopped. If we are talking about realism then the vast majority of gunshot wounds would be fatal (unless the round causes a minor wound without compromising any underlying structures such as bones, tendons, major blood vessels etc). Even simple injuries would require suturing which is a bit more difficult than resewing a button.

Anything that involves the internal organs requires surgery and as this isn't available in a post apocalyptic world it comes down to this: if you get shot, you die.

Personally I think the current system works well, it's not terribly realistic but for the sake of gameplay it does what it needs to.

[bellicosity 0]

What would it really accomplish though' date=' apart from forcing some people to do what they dont really want to do? By forcing the players hand you get a situation where he goes "Aw dammit, now I HAVE to do this thing". That is not good. The player feels forced to do something he doesn't wanna do and gets frustrated with the game.

Instead you have to build your game in a way that makes the player want to do whatever you want him to do, without forcing him to do so.

[/quote']

You're forced to eat?

To drink?

To get fire?

I just don't see how you can, by yourself, adequately treat some wounds let alone serious wounds.

Military medic here. Using dressings' date=' bandages, hemostatic agents and tourniquets most bleeding can be stopped. If we are talking about realism then the vast majority of gunshot wounds would be fatal (unless the round causes a minor wound without compromising any underlying structures such as bones, tendons, major blood vessels etc). Even simple injuries would require suturing which is a bit more difficult than resewing a button.

Anything that involves the internal organs requires surgery and as this isn't available in a post apocalyptic world it comes down to this: if you get shot, you die.

Personally I think the current system works well, it's not terribly realistic but for the sake of gameplay it does what it needs to.

[/quote']

I dont think blood in this game is supposed to represent your actual red blood cell count. I feel like its more of an 'overall health.'

That being said, I get that actual bleeding can be stopped, but in all cases of at least serious injury and some minor injuries you need assistance from someone else.

[melbo 3]

Military medic here. Using dressings' date=' bandages, hemostatic agents and tourniquets most bleeding can be stopped. If we are talking about realism then the vast majority of gunshot wounds would be fatal (unless the round causes a minor wound without compromising any underlying structures such as bones, tendons, major blood vessels etc). Even simple injuries would require suturing which is a bit more difficult than resewing a button.

Anything that involves the internal organs requires surgery and as this isn't available in a post apocalyptic world it comes down to this: if you get shot, you die.

Personally I think the current system works well, it's not terribly realistic but for the sake of gameplay it does what it needs to.

[/quote']

Bang on son! From one military medic to another!

[DudelyPowers 0]

Even in real life everyone needs helps. In a apocalypse like this game you will definitely get injured to the point that you need someone else's help to bring you back from the abyss.

As is stands right now' date=' there is never that fear in this game. You can single handedly heal yourself from damn near 0 to perfect.

[/quote']

This is already present in the game. If you pass out from low blood pressure it's possible that you can be killed or bleed out before you wake up. I was in a situation once where I was shot by a sniper, and the only reason I survived was because I had two friendly survivors with me at the time.

You're also already dependent on other survivors for blood transfusions. You can heal yourself from 2k blood with food, but you have to work for that, either braving lootable buildings or hunting animals.

Solo survival is hard enough with the constant paranoia and loneliness. Why should I be forced to trust my continued existence to some random guy who offers me medical supplies? Why does everyone want to force me to be a team player when sometimes I just want to be lonely and antisocial? Heaping on layers of inconvenience is not a good way to incentivise behavior.

[feriluce 2]

What would it really accomplish though' date=' apart from forcing some people to do what they dont really want to do? By forcing the players hand you get a situation where he goes "Aw dammit, now I HAVE to do this thing". That is not good. The player feels forced to do something he doesn't wanna do and gets frustrated with the game.

Instead you have to build your game in a way that makes the player want to do whatever you want him to do, without forcing him to do so.

[/quote']

You're forced to eat?

To drink?

To get fire?

I just don't see how you can, by yourself, adequately treat some wounds let alone serious wounds.

And you can get food, water and wood by yourself. I guess I should have been more specific and mentioned that I'm talking about playstyles here.

[bellicosity 0]

What would it really accomplish though' date=' apart from forcing some people to do what they dont really want to do? By forcing the players hand you get a situation where he goes "Aw dammit, now I HAVE to do this thing". That is not good. The player feels forced to do something he doesn't wanna do and gets frustrated with the game.

Instead you have to build your game in a way that makes the player want to do whatever you want him to do, without forcing him to do so.

[/quote']

You're forced to eat?

To drink?

To get fire?

I just don't see how you can, by yourself, adequately treat some wounds let alone serious wounds.

And you can get food, water and wood by yourself. I guess I should have been more specific and mentioned that I'm talking about playstyles here.

Well then what about adding something like a suture kit that is a somewhat rare spawn? Takes up two spaces, and enables you to stop blood loss on your own? Otherwise it requires a player to use a bandage on you?

Edit: I really do no think that as the game currently is, encounters with infected people are dangerous. There needs to be a mechanic in place to make them extremely dangerous, or at least somewhat dangerous. I dont personally like the idea of a suture kit but if it balances the game well, then so be it.

The idea of a zombie-esque game having the zombies be an after thought in the danger seems a bit off to me.

[jorgamun 2]

I personally just like the idea of your medical skills being less effective until you have some tool of some sort that enables you to take care of more grievous injuries. You who spoke as a military medic remember: YOU are a medic. What are the chances that a Survivor in Chernarus is?

[melbo 3]

CAT's and FFD's have instructions on how to apply them on the packets. It really is simple.

[bellicosity 0]

I personally just like the idea of your medical skills being less effective until you have some tool of some sort that enables you to take care of more grievous injuries. You who spoke as a military medic remember: YOU are a medic. What are the chances that a Survivor in Chernarus is?

This. No problems with this what-so-ever.

And as I said above, encounters with infected people simply are not dangerous past the first 20 minutes and for a new player.

[DudelyPowers 0]

Suture kit

rare spawn

two inventory spaces

Why

Just

Just why, man

You're complaining that being able to fully bandage your own wounds is unrealistic, but having this kind of wound treatment that you can perform on yourself be general knowledge while having the supplies to perform it be rare AND take up a ludicrous amount of space is better?!