Redesign Zombie Combat

[BlackAlpha 12]

I find that the zombie combat part of the mod is "gamey" and could easily be improved to something that is more realistic and more fun. Right now, there's too much focus on backpeddling and too little on shooting. So here's a way to fix that.

But first, let's clarify how the zombie combat mechanics work right now:

Outdoors

1. Player alerts a zombie.

2. Zombie runs towards the player.

3. Player backpeddles to become immune to the zombie attack.

4. Zombie performs the attack animation, but misses because the player is too quick for the attack animation.

5. Player stops for a split second, shoots at the same time.

6. Go back to 3.

I think this is too gamey and not really how the devs intended the combat to be like. The player is basically exploiting faults in the game mechanics to stay alive. I find this combat boring and a bit annoying. It makes it not really fun to fight zombies because the system feels buggy, not done right. But if the player simply stands still, then the zombies will easily kill him because they are extremely quick and hitting them while they are running is extremely hard because the zombies can turn at warp speed. This forces the player to backpeddle to stay alive.

Indoors

1. Player alerts a zombie.

2. Zombie runs inside the building and starts walking.

3. Player shoots from a stationary position.

4. Zombie walks closer to the player.

5. Player walks backwards to get outside of the zombie attack range.

6. Go back to 3.

This is better and more fun than the outdoors combat mechanics. The player is in a more realistic scenario where he simply shoots most of the time, rather than uses exploits to abuse flaws in the game mechanics to stay alive. Still, it would be better if the zombies would be able to run indoors, but I assume this can not be fixed at the "modding level" of the game, so I won't go into that.

Problems

The main issues seem to be that the zombies cannot hit running players and the zombies are too quick. The zombies cannot hit running players because the attack animation is too slow and/or the current attack animation is not suitable for a running attack. To compensate for the zombies' inability to hit moving players, the speed of the zombies is increased to unrealistic levels to keep the zombies challenging while the player is backpeddling. But this results in unrealistic gameplay that doesn't feel right because the player is basically exploiting a bug and the combat looks out of place, it doesn't look realistic or fun. On top of that, the player is unable to hit moving zombies because the zombies not only move extremely fast, they change directions constantly and do so at an impossible speed.

Solution

The way to fix the problems is to change or add another attack animation to the zombies, and reduce the maximum running speed of zombies to a more realistic level. The zombies first need a way to hit running players, like a new faster attack animation that can hit running players reliably. Then you could make it so that the attack animation is chosen by chance; one attack animation will cause a miss on a moving player because it's too slow, another attack animation will always be able to hit. Then you can reduce the zombie's maximum running speed to a more realistic value that doesn't look as buggy or as unrealistic as it is now. Then the player will be able to hit moving zombies, at the disadvantage that when the zombies do reach the player, there will be a chance that the zombies will be able to hit moving players. This means the combat mechanics will look like as follows:

1. The player alerts a zombie.

2. Zombie runs towards the player.

3. Player shoots the zombie

4. The zombie is running slower than now, so it has not arrived at the player yet.

5. The player has a bit more time to shoot, so he shoots again.

6. Zombie gets close to the player.

7. The player has a choice to stand and fire off another round, or backpeddle and hope the zombie's attack animation might miss.

8. If the player decides to backpeddle, he might or might not get hit, it's a gamble.

9. Go back to 7.

The result of this will be that players will spend more time shooting and less time backpeddling. The player who decides to stand and fight has a chance to fire off one more round that could potentially finish of the zombie, or not, and then the player gets hit by the zombie for certain. The player who decides to run backwards has a chance to evade the zombie attack, allowing the player to shoot the zombie without getting hit.

All in all, the combat mechanics will become more realistic and more fun because it will be less about exploiting loop holes. The combat mechanics will be more like how you'd expect the combat to be in games AND real life. But it will still be as challenging due to the zombies' ability to do certain damage when they get close, even on moving players. In other words, the game will become more fun, while still keeping things as challenging as it is now.

[BlackAlpha 12]

Bump. Does no one else think the same?

[Rico (DayZ) 99]

Bump. Does no one else think the same?

I think………that you've written too much, at this time i can't read all

but tomorrow i will, and i'll tell you what I think.

[TeaLeaf 5]

Make zombies easier to shoot but make it harder to just kite them? Sounds good. Though the reduced zombie speed would mean you can just run away.

[dharion@drahl.com 5]

I think that the zombie speed is fine, they don't have active brains to limit their muscles so they can be fast and amazingly strong. The current problem is more likely to be that they stand still to attack you and at that point back peddle will give enough distance yes.

Maybe make the attacks go while they are moving? Then you can't simply outrun them anymore since you WILL get hit. Could be possible to offset the danger with a chance for zombies to fall because their bones can't handle the speed for long durations.

Just my 2c

[Wingnut (DayZ) 0]

this. I think a little balancing would be a good idea, as I am currently unable to hit a moving zombie until they stop to attack me, but I can peg a sprinting bandit at range fairly easily. Also, the ability to loose them EVENTUALLY would be nice, I had a monkey zombie track me from electro to Novy Sobor, even though I was out of his sight range for miles.

[BlackAlpha 12]

I think that the zombie speed is fine' date=' they don't have active brains to limit their muscles so they can be fast and amazingly strong. The current problem is more likely to be that they stand still to attack you and at that point back peddle will give enough distance yes.

Maybe make the attacks go while they are moving? Then you can't simply outrun them anymore since you WILL get hit. Could be possible to offset the danger with a chance for zombies to fall because their bones can't handle the speed for long durations.

Just my 2c

[/quote']

If we are talking realism here. It's not the bones that will fail first, but the organs. Most likely the zombies will simply drop dead from exhaustion.

An attack on the move would be nice. Good idea!

[Reliqua 10]

Very well thought out. I support this. :D

[dharion@drahl.com 5]

If we are talking realism here. It's not the bones that will fail first' date=' but the organs. Most likely the zombies will simply drop dead from exhaustion. [...']

Could also work, as long as there is an offset to them constantly hitting you while you run, else you wouldn't stand a chance if you miss-fired and have 6 more zeds joining that 1 you just missed.

[ihucus@gmail.com 3]

Taking in account the way the zombies move right now if they didn't have the 2 second attack animation. We would all die a lot faster. The zeds run faster than us, if they could hit while moving we would all end up quitting this game.

Right now as a game the zombie functions are getting better while still keeping gameplay/fun levels up. My big issue is the zig zag run they do, but with every update their path straights out little by little.

For the hiding in house issue, you need to use your imagination. Imagine 10 zeds all crammed in the door not being able to get through :P That's how I explain the zeds being idiots by doors.

[dharion@drahl.com 5]

[...] The zeds run faster than us' date=' if they could hit while moving we would all end up quitting this game. [...']

I wouldn't, I would be way more cautious with approaching them or take them out from a distance and pick them off one by one, even though that will diminish my ammo a lot.

But I understand you point though, that's why I said to add an offset, can be them stumbling at times which gives you a chance to shoot, them keeling over after x amount of time from exhaustion etc. Aslong as they become somewhat of a larger threat then they are now.

PS; If the zeds wouldn't run faster then us it would also be broken. they will never catch you anyways (unless you think you can outrun them while running up a huge hill which makes you walk).

[Guest ragequitalready]

.

Edited October 25, 2012 by ragequitalready

[dharion@drahl.com 5]

Why doesn't Rocket just make it that if a zombie is alert' date=' and chasing a player, if the player is moving near them then a small aoe attack (which is apparently how their attack works currently) is launched in the immediate vicinity of the zombie.

This does half the damage of their normal attack, and has no animation associated with it to prevent any movement delays. It is presumed as part of the running with their arms moving up and down they took a swipe at a player.

Then if the zombie reaches a player and the player isn't moving, they can do their full attack with animation and full damage.

Part of making these changes would mean zombies have to run at 1.1 or 1.2 times the speed of the player, so although they aren't faster than a bicycle they can still catch up to a player who just runs.

Zombie damage may also have to be buffed slightly (1.5 times) to make them a little more of a thread

[/quote']

Actually a better idea.

[BlackAlpha 12]

Why doesn't Rocket just make it that if a zombie is alert' date=' and chasing a player, if the player is moving near them then a small aoe attack (which is apparently how their attack works currently) is launched in the immediate vicinity of the zombie.

This does half the damage of their normal attack, and has no animation associated with it to prevent any movement delays. It is presumed as part of the running with their arms moving up and down they took a swipe at a player.

Then if the zombie reaches a player and the player isn't moving, they can do their full attack with animation and full damage.

Part of making these changes would mean zombies have to run at 1.1 or 1.2 times the speed of the player, so although they aren't faster than a bicycle they can still catch up to a player who just runs.

Zombie damage may also have to be buffed slightly (1.5 times) to make them a little more of a thread

[/quote']

Sounds good. Maybe later on they can add a proper animation for it.

[...] The zeds run faster than us' date=' if they could hit while moving we would all end up quitting this game. [...']

I wouldn't, I would be way more cautious with approaching them or take them out from a distance and pick them off one by one, even though that will diminish my ammo a lot.

But I understand you point though, that's why I said to add an offset, can be them stumbling at times which gives you a chance to shoot, them keeling over after x amount of time from exhaustion etc. Aslong as they become somewhat of a larger threat then they are now.

PS; If the zeds wouldn't run faster then us it would also be broken. they will never catch you anyways (unless you think you can outrun them while running up a huge hill which makes you walk).

Note that I also suggested to reduce the speed to compensate for the new attack. You could make it so they run as fast as we can sprint. This would mean you can run as fast as the zombies can for a couple of seconds, but over longer distances, you won't be able to outrun them. Also, the slower zombie speed means you get more time to shoot.

So if you get swarmed by zombies, and you failed to shoot them, and there are no buildings nearby, and no teammates nearby, then you deserve to die. It means you screwed up.

That's how it should work, right? It's like that in every other zombie movie/game.

[Fordo77 0]

I love the ideas; especially the possibility for larger zombie swarms. Personally I would prefer zombies that are slow but operate in or converge into large groups. The player would become swarmed by zombies and have nowhere to run to, eliminating the problem of the backpedal and shoot strategy.

[Plisken (DayZ) 0]

Why not put 2 groups of zeds?

One that can sprint and are very lethal and other who operates in large groups but cannot run?