Reply to Rocket about zombie AI

[Horr1d 7]

The zombies in this aren't zombies. They are infected people.

Personally I prefer 28 days/months later as I find this more terrifying and believable' date=' hence why it is like this in game.

As I said in an interview, I have a lifecycle developed for the infected people that will result in some of them being slower than others (malnutritioned) but that would be the exception rather than rule.

[/quote']

Okay I can understand someone wanting to go for a more modern take on the classic Zombie character, the speed is something that can be kept but you must see a problem with the Zombie AI as it stands and see that an AI system similar to mine would result in smarter, more fun and scary situations?

I'll be honest, I feel a little disappointed now because if the best thing we are going to see in terms of improved zeds are bug fixes and a life cycle then this game will become just about survival by collecting food/water/heat by killing others or solving the easy infected people puzzle when you go to a new town and looting the buildings. A server bugged on me earlier and had 0 zeds, and I thought to myself... yes, this is how I'd play the game even with the 600 Zeds, I'd just be more slow and quiet because zeds I attract will give my position away to opponents.

While I would prefer tweaked zombie AI behaviour as you describe' date=' I really wouldn't want player controlled zombies; just seems to be heading into the realms of a whole other game than what DayZ is currently.

[/quote'] I'm not advocating that dont worry! I agree that would be a huge shakeup and way too early to consider. But I'm saying when a player dies from the infection as a result of getting hit by a Zed, its game over like now, but his corpse is taken over by AI that moves at a very fast speed like current Zeds. Getting infected would mean adding another item to the list of heat/water/food there would be /medicine too, making zombies more of a threat.

Surviving would be 33% harder if you got hit by a Zed!

Exactly this point you made really Nya, I thought out a tactic to win in this game and that was the conclusion I came up with, the people are the threat here 99% of the time. Current Zeds are not scary, or a threat, they are a chore. The real enemy are my fellow players right now, noobs who I can take beans and water from on the beachs, to survivalists who ran north and think I cant see them in the woods. And best of all, other bandits who are preying on the same prey I am.

The reason we are not seeing the community and coop nature of the game come out in servers is because of this simple balance.

*******People are more deadly to your survival (The point of the game?) Than the Zeds!!!********

People want a social coop element, we want to be able to role play this like an MMORPG, but if the point of the game is to stay alive and I want to play seriously and try to win to win the game, current logic says other players are my biggest threat.

******Make zombies the stronger enemy than other players in certain situations!!****** Make those situations actually doable with COOP PLAY. All with improved zombie AI and no NPCs.

If the zombies could hear the same range as humans, making the slightest noise when navigating a city or barn in the middle of the woods could potentially have attracted a few shuffling zombies to investigate.

Picture the scene...moving down a hill at the back of Elektro near the tower and power generator, the sun is going down and you need to get some firewood before it gets dark so you decide to check the shed with the huge red doors, and surprisingly creaky-less hinges for some wood. You approach from the North and scout out no Zeds near the shed or tower, but you do see a few in the main square of the city, shambling past the church, you take a moment to reflect and watch him stagger onwards, hungry for my brain that just thought those very thoughts and wondered if the zombie has any self awareness left.... All of a sudden a shot rings out from somewhere in the town, you hear a groan, way closer than you wanted to hear and a zed you didn't even see before staggers out of the barn to investigate the noise in the city, "Thanks noobmeat, you think. Saved me some bother and my bottle of Jack Daniels!" (ahh the lore I could write). As you watch to see if you can get ourself a free ticket to a bloodsport, you notice more and more zombies than you spotted in the earlier inspection!.. god, that's more than you have dealt with before! Time to get to work you think as you swiftly move to the shed.

As you look inside and quickly scan the contents before spotting the wood in the far corner. *PEW* A shot rings out and hits the wall in front of you! No time to think, Call of Duty and Battlefield training kick into gear as you sprint forward into the barn, seeking cover in the office. You train the gun on the doorway and the survivor rushes in, you cant help but think as you look at him down your scope that he looks a little ill, he must be out of food and starving to pull off such a fatal fps mistake and directly chasing me into my cover... you pull the trigger with glee releasing the silver bolt from its Crossbow.

All of a sudden and you dont quite know why...as his body falls to the floor the sudden importance of the wood and being back at camp before nightfall is pushed to the back of your mind and the Warcraft instinct takes over... GIVE ME LOOT!!! as you have now just caught glimpse of his A.L.I.C.E pack. You of course already have one, but it means this guy might have some interesting stuff stashed away in there. Getting those Night Vision goggles will allow you to play out that Silence of the Lambs fantasy with your victims so you eagerly make this your priority!

After what feels like an eternity, but is actually only 2 seconds the inventory controls respond and it finally opens the contents of the pack... and your heart sinks. A pack full of empty bean tins and a few gold coins. Worthless now of course, but you did hear legend of some crazy guy called Caesar accepting them in exchange for food once... you dump the body and grab the firewood and set off outside.

As the air hits your face you wonder about the guy in the village, you dont remember any screams, he could still be alive.... you look up at the tower and begin the climb to see if you can scout him. Be funny to see a swarm this large, be something to tell the others about when I get back to camp. BOOM, a shot rings out from below you and the direct chat channel open and the name Horr1d appears, hes using some voice control item, disguising his voice and before you pull yourself onto the ledge and try to get prone... BOOM, Horr1d fires again..... directly into the air, you ask yourself? But what can you do but pull yourself up and go prone?

You hope I chase you up there so you can take a shot but dont think that its his intention to loot you... you are right of course, I could have killed you ages ago... You wait, and wait, and wait but I dont come up, night time descends........

Before you have chance to think of what your next move should be, a Flare is thrown from the road heading North East, lighting up the court yard to a terrifying sight. The horde of record breaking size shambling slowly towards the commotion, the rifle he used was extremely loud! You need to get out of here!!!

"UUUUGGHHHHHHHH" is suddenly heard from below... followed by RAGUJHW, or whatever hellish noise that girl Zed made. (Yes, I want zed women!) and to your horror you see her and another moving towards the ladder..... there is no way you can take the shot at this range with the crossbow being so underpowered, but if you wait for her to come into view, the whole horde will be upon you.... you take the shot, miss. Of course you miss, your knowledge of wind direction and gravity have no weight here from all the years of terrible fps games.

No choice, you have to jump... its a 100% chance of a break at this height, 50% chance to pass out but you have the painkillers and morphine to ignore the pain. You press G as you fall, wanting to administer the morphine as soon as possible as you hit the deck to make your escape. The snap lets you know its time to press use and you look around for any zombies near to where you fell, none close enough to reach you in time..... wrong..... the player you killed earlier was infected and has returned as a crimson head, the fastest of all the zombies, there is no time to continue the treatment as his red eyes burn in the night like lanterns. You are hit, several times before reloading the crossbow and killing him at point blank.

A new meter appears on the right, infection level and its not looking good, you suffered massive damage and will turn into one of them very soon if not immediately treated. You inject the morphine, take the painkillers and stagger up the north road, Horr1d.... you mutter to yourself, pissed off at my original thinking but alive and out for revenge, with a trail of 100 zombies following you.....

---

Going to play in game now, feel free to add me on skype

paul.sharpeuk

[feriluce 2]

I must admit, that I'm a bit disappointed that the zombies are going to stay as they are. I really feel the game would be better with a decently sized makeover of the whole zombie system. Especially the whole homing missiles zombies that instantly know where you are and where you're moving to as soon as they're activated, even if they're 300m away when that happens.

[CalUKGR 4]

Then I'll say all this again, here:

RE: dangerous infected people

(Today 02:47 AM)BurstFire Wrote: In regards to the Zombie speeds. They shouldn't be sped up at all, their attack pattern is so odd, buggy and annoying, why should it be made even worse? If anything make them slower, harder to down and make their hits a bit stronger too. Maybe make them go down, then get up again after a bit, sometimes crawling, or have them slowly walk then eventually rush towards the player in some sort of bloodlust rage. ...Think I'm for both walkers and some runners, but having runners as 'special' would be neat. So they would be uncommon.

This sounds like a perfect solution to me. I really do not like the current iteration of 'infected' (apparently, we are not to refer to them as Zeds for some strange reason). The scope for more tactical, thoughtful play is immediately widened by slowing down the infected, and making them that more dangerous. I love the idea that there could be, within any given group of infected, just one or two absolutely deadly 'runners'.

And I also like the idea in the OP's post regarding sound, and how the infected should react to it without a line of sight. That just seems so much more believable than instantly all breaking into a silly zig-zag sprint-a-thon - again, this is something that really could work with tactical play (someone setting up a deliberate diversion to allow the main group of players to get into a hospital, say, unmolested as the infected move slowly away in the direction of distant gunfire...).

Sadly, for all the potential there for creative gameplay I fear none of this will happen. Our Rocket overlord seems very set in his thinking and really quite dismissive of any suggestions that might leave his mod anything less than 'hardcore'. Still, DayZ will be noticed by other developers and they will read these forums and these suggestions too...

[thedoubled 10]

I must admit' date=' that I'm a bit disappointed that the zombies are going to stay as they are. I really feel the game would be better with a decently sized makeover of the whole zombie system. Especially the whole homing missiles zombies that instantly know where you are and where you're moving to as soon as they're activated, even if they're 300m away when that happens.

[/quote']

Are you saying laggy zeds won't be fixed?

[Shoarmaboer 8]

What I really like about the infected AI as it stand right now is that they almost always force you to give away your position because you cannot shake them off or keep them controlled in any way besides killing them. Even though it's the infected who are chasing you without stopping, they are not your worst threat.

The infected themselves force you to deal with them, opening up a window in which other players are given the ability to interact with you. This means that any interaction involving the infected is an interaction in which you can possibly attract other players their attention.

How these players will react to this information will always vary, largely based on who that player is as an individual and what his needs and goals are. Some will try to save you and cooperate with you, some will try to shoot you to steal your precious beans and canned pasta and some will simply try hide or try to run away to save themselves but it will always lure out some kind of unpredictable player to player interaction, even if the players cannot physically see eachother (you've probably made a run for it once after hearing some gunshots despite the fact that you didn't actually see the person firing the weapon).

This is why I think that the current state of the AI (even though it feels clunky and is buggy at times) benefits the element of survival and brings out the emergent gameplay that is possible within dayz. I'm not saying the infected and the AI are fine as it is, but we shouldn't try to revamp the infected system at the cost of the varying way players interact with eachother.

[Kriegson 1]

This is why I think that the current state of the AI (even though it feels clunky and is buggy at times) benefits the element of survival and brings out the emergent gameplay that is possible within dayz. I'm not saying the infected and the AI are fine as it is' date=' but we shouldn't try to revamp the infected system at the cost of the varying way players interact with eachother.

[/quote']

Even if we revamped things to have slow(er) zombies, player interaction would likely remain the same. "Hey a guy! I'll shoot him!"

Personally, I like the concept of making towns (and other areas) filled with far, far more zeds that require a headshot to permanently kill, and perhaps making them more deadly, such as being able to grab players (can't move while their script runs, you must knock them down with body shots or kill them with a shot to the head).

Ultimately though, if Zeds ever get fixed we might see towns being far, far deadlier and cooperation being incentive further.

[rocket 16567]

I never said i'm not changing them.

I said the premise of them won't change.

They are not classic zombies, they are infected people. I have new animations, a whole bunch of stuff to add. But that will come later.

[frzfox 0]

I never said i'm not changing them.

I said the premise of them won't change.

They are not classic zombies' date=' they are infected people. I have new animations, a whole bunch of stuff to add. But that will come later.

[/quote']

I forget if it was you that said it or someone else, are you able to change it so that zombies don't run at you and then do a quick circle around you so you can't even aim at them sometimes, and that they sometimes attack you through walls?

[Zhivago 1]

I just want to repost this since the other thread is bugged or something

(Today 12:31 AM)rocket Wrote: The zombies in this aren't zombies. They are infected people.

Personally I prefer 28 days/months later as I find this more terrifying and believable, hence why it is like this in game.

As I said in an interview, I have a lifecycle developed for the infected people that will result in some of them being slower than others (malnutritioned) but that would be the exception rather than rule.

I agree wholeheartedly with them being fast, but wouldn't it make sense to nerf the speed just a little bit? I'm not talking about shambler speed, I'm just talking 'not usain bolt 24/7' speed. Their speed really is quite ridiculous when you consider their acceleration, the way they zigzag, and their bugginess in general.

Instead of being scared, I'm just frustrated when I have to deal with zombies. I never know when one is going to pop out of a wall and one-shot KO me.

My 2 cents.

And to any rocket fanboys, please save your breath, I know what you're going to say. 'You're just a carebear'. Well, if you weren't parroting that term, maybe you'd know what it actually means and where it came from. You aren't a carebear if you don't like broken game mechanics, and zombies are definitely a broken mechanic right now in the current state of the alpha, and should be fixed accordingly.

[wasrad 42]

TL;DR

[Suicide Mouse 50]

They should be as fast as a human can be. They should spaz and twich, be completely instinctive and animalistic. I'd like that if instead of reaching the player to just slap him, when they got to a very close range they'd threw themselves forward to take down the prey.

[Migo 0]

If you would like to model what a proper zombie of this type would be like, then I suggest getting me drunk and high on PCP.

[ytman18@gmail.com 9]

I never said i'm not changing them.

I said the premise of them won't change.

They are not classic zombies' date=' they are infected people. I have new animations, a whole bunch of stuff to add. But that will come later.

[/quote']

/Thread.

[johnabc123 0]

Rocket, I know you like the fast zombies, but here's my view on it. The more fit you are, the faster you can run. Zombies aren't exactly what I'd call healthy, so I think they should run at a slower speed. If they would run 15 to 20 percent slower, but in turn did some more damage I think it would work out better. And as everyone else said, making them a little less precise would help too.

As far as the forests go, I think they should remain empty. An occasional grizzly bear could keep people on their toes, and I think it would help keep things varied.

[Horr1d 7]

No not end thread, like you are some sort of judge now and cast your judgement over others discussions and on all the other opinions and ideas the community has been discussing. Once the mighty admin cast forth his words, but only of course, because you think you are now "on his side" or something bizzare.

Does not discussion and sharing of ideas help? When an engine comes along that is suitable I can make my own mod, I will attempt something similar to my idea. Until that time I love discussing with the zombie community ideas on this forum.

Slower zombies will result in more tactical decisions, you have time to think of a strategy, using the environment to get the best out of it. You do this every time you play right now, and I say the zombies are boring, easy and make interactions come down to fight or flight. As there are no real coop elements in yet and the zombies are no threat, its just fight each other and zombies when you have to. I dont need to coop up to increase my odds of survival at all, thats the problem with the game and improved AI along what I suggested would improve the RP aspect of the game by making your odds of survival better if you work together, because of the increased difficulty of the zombie, or "infected person". They can still run fast, but what do you think of my AI tweak? They can still be fast and be infected people.

Try it as a test, reduce all zombie speeds and tweak aggro like I suggested, see what happens! People might enjoy it, spice of life and all that ;)

[septuscap 42]

No not end thread' date=' like you are some sort of judge now and cast your judgement over others discussions and all on all the other opinions and ideas the community has been discussing. Once the mighty admin cast forth his words, but only of course, because you think you are now "on his side" or something bizzare.

Slower zombies will result in more tactical decisions, you have time to think of a strategy, using the environment to get the best out of it. You do this every time you play right now, and I say the zombies are boring, easy and make interactions come down to fight or flight. As there are no real coop elements in yet and the zombies are no threat, its just fight each other and zombies when you have to. I dont need to coop up to increase my odds of survival at all, thats the problem with the game and improved AI along what I suggested would improve the RP aspect of the game.

Try it as a test, reduce all zombie speeds and tweak aggro like I suggested, see what happens! People might enjoy it, spice of life and all that ;)

[/quote']

If you had half a brain you could still decide where to get high ground, whether to run to a building IN town and hole up, whether other players were around, etc. I'm sorry you need zombies that walk around so you have time to form a coherent thought but that's not anyone's problem but your own.

[Horr1d 7]

And trolls like you Septus should go back into the league of legends forums where you belong.

[Shag 90]

I think a good yard stick is when you get an empty server. As a new spawned characted with a shitty pistol i can go into cherno and take a whole bunch of cool stuff. Not good. I think that to go into the main areas of the game with all the best stuff should require the coming together of two or three survivors minimum, with some military grade hardware - JUST TO GET PAST ZEDS.... let alone the added threat of hunters lurking using high end loot as bait.

One very quick win way to do this would be to change the numbers of zombies attached to certain buildings. Supermarkets, municipal office, houseB tenemant (the hotel in cherno), panela (appartments in cherno) land a office (big office in electro) should all the number of zombies doubled.

The zombie levels in outlaying smaller villages are fine for me. Long wolf players should be able to raid these places.

[TexRoadkill (DayZ) 0]

Why are you guys arguing about something that Rocket admitted needs more work and is in fact working on it? Why not just see what he comes up with and go from there?

[sienihemmo 2]

At present, I think of the zeds as more of an enviromental hazard in a PVP survival game, rather than the actual point of the game. They are mostly just an annoyance, and only become actually dangerous when you're either in a house with only one exit (with not enough ammo to deal with them), or when there are literally dozens of them in narrow city streets (when you can't run and gun so easily). Anything else and they are easily dealt with.

[CalUKGR 4]

And trolls like you Septus should go back into the league of legends forums where you belong.

Well said, fella. He doesn't speak for all of us. Sadly, that kind of bullying tone is all too common on these boards. Horr1d, you make a good and valid case for your argument and I can only echo your sentiments for the changes you'd like to see in DayZ. But I guess these are early days for the mod - and I'm as guilty as the next man for sometimes forgetting that. Perhaps that's what enthusiasm for a project such as this does.

I still say: slow down the infected (but put a few random (and highly dangerous) 'runners' in there now and again just to catch us off-guard) and make all infected more dangerous if and when they come into player contact. I like the idea, also, of having the infected sometimes getting up again after being downed - adding another layer of player uncertainty in a stressful encounter.

Introduce a proper 'herd' mentality to the infected so that player groups can use planned tactics to lure them away from high-value targets (hospitals, gas stations, etc) working as team, taking calculated risks. There is so much more that can be done with the infected as a creative device. I'm going to make myself confident Rocket and his team can see these possibilities already...

[septuscap 42]

I'm sorry but when some one says slower zombies will result in more "TACTICAL" decisions they're full of shit. It'd just make it easier to lose them.

[Horr1d 7]

Thanks Cal.

http://dayzmod.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=7597 is the original thread on how the AI could be changed. I can accept Rockets decisions about them not being zombies but infected people and that he wishes to keep the run speed very fast, but let me clarify my decision.

ARMA has a very slow action sequence, such as drawing a pistol, dropping a flare etc, all these actions are performed way too slow by the animation and mean that the actions you can take before the super fast infected are upon me, is to keep my gun drawn at all times and shoot or run away. Thats pretty much it because its all I have TIME to do, with the slow animations and very fast speed of the zombie.

The current speed of the zombie isnt really a problem, as the AI is even dumber than a real zombie and can be navigated easily. Keeping the speed like Rocket envisions is fine, but please take a look at how the AI could change to produce stray zombies and huge swarms if you are not fast and quiet enough.

[CalUKGR 4]

The current speed of the zombie isnt really a problem...

I'd prefer more classic 'shamblers' with the proviso that if they notice you and get within a certain distance they'll close that final gap very fast.

Also, in a thread now lost, someone mentioned having a 'hero' infected - one infected in every mid-large herd that notices you from a greater distance and somehow communicates this to the rest... It's an intriguing concept, not sure how it would fit, but might be worth considering. You'd sort of have to identify the 'hero' first to eliminate the possibility of a stampede...

[Horr1d 7]

You clearly didnt read my posts Septus and just come to troll down ideas before you have even considered them in any context at all so go check the other thread and look how I talk about stamina, so you cant not sprint forever. Stamina bar duration is based on current level of food and water . Sprint when out of bar and you burn water level RAPIDLY, just like IRL.

I'm not a terrible FPS player and I used to be in the British Army. I know about fire manoeuvre, how to read a map, how to stay hidden by sight, sound, silhouette, putting tape over my buttons etc to stop reflections... and I'm just saying that AI changes would keep me on my toes and make it very difficult and scary again.

Plus it would allow clever manipulation of the zombies, instead of just shooting the annoying bastards in the head or avoiding them completely.

If you use constructive criticism, then ideas can grow and we can together along with Rocket and his team, make this mod one that could rival that of the big hitters, wow, cod and the sims.