Lee enfield Vs. Fn Fal & M14

[koze 113]

Recently the Lee enfield was heavily nerfed, from 12500 damage to 6722.

Now both the M14 & Fn Fal fire a 7.62x51mm round, and the Lee Enfield fires a .303.

So why the f*ck can these two assault rifles do more damage than a weapon that has a bigger bullet? Oh and don't forget its bolt action so its 10-30% more powerful than a semi-automatic rifle.

I'm not saying bring back the Lee Enfield to a 1 hit kill, but increase it to 9-10k. Or atleast bring it back to 8k, It still is only a 2 hit kill and 1 to the head, incase you guys forgot the Lee Enfield is basically a Sniper Rifle, but without the scope.

If anyone was wondering where I found the information:

Heres the weapon stats of the nerfed weapons, before and after.

http://dayzdb.com/ne...es-in-arma2-162

Heres the damage of all the weapons in DayZ.

http://dayzdb.com/database/weapon-comparison

Edited August 7, 2012 by koze

[VitaminK 6]

Your second link goes to the same page.

But to answer your question as to why, this is a GAME. Regarless what actual stats are in real life, the devs are going to balance the weapons so there isnt 1 super weapon etc.

[koze 113]

Your second link goes to the same page.

But to answer your question as to why, this is a GAME. Regarless what actual stats are in real life, the devs are going to balance the weapons so there isnt 1 super weapon etc.

Sorry, the links there now.

[Jay Shack 28]

you mean not including the fact that the Enflield is over 110 years old and developments in powders and rifling, let alone all the other changes in firearms in the last 100 years?

EDIT: also in the 1960s it appears that the Enfield changed its bullet to 7.62 x 51mm NATO rounds.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Enfield#Pattern_1914.2FUS_M1917

Edited August 7, 2012 by Jay Shack

[koze 113]

you mean not including the fact that the Enflield is over 110 years old and developments in powders and rifling, let alone all the other changes in firearms in the last 100 years?

EDIT: also in the 1960s it appears that the Enfield changed its bullet to 7.62 x 51mm NATO rounds.. http://en.wikipedia....1914.2FUS_M1917

Yes they made another varient that had 7.62x51mm rounds, but the one used in DayZ is the .303 (which is stated in the wiki and the ingame clips.) , and obviously they use cordite in the latest Lee enfield. And incase you didn't notice, bolt action rifles are around 10-30% more powerful than a semi-automatic rifles.

[bazbake 456]

The damage tables are bad...and they should feel bad.

Although I don't know why you mentioned bolt-action unless you're bringing Videogame Logic^TM into a discussion of Real World Physics.

EDIT: Unless you mean maximum range...

Edited August 7, 2012 by BazBake

[Pyro_Marine 147]

So THAT'S how bad the 1911 got nerfed. >.> :(

[federik21 42]

Your second link goes to the same page.

But to answer your question as to why, this is a GAME. Regarless what actual stats are in real life, the devs are going to balance the weapons so there isnt 1 super weapon etc.

You fanboys are pretty RIDICOULUS:

When it is matter to introduce something to reduce the annoyng pvp deathmaching, you say NO, this isn't a game, this is the anti-game,nothing should be balanced, etc.

When something unrealistic occurs, you say "c'mon, it's only a game, Master Rocket ( Hollowed be thy name) knows what it does".

I think Rocket should follow it's line, from the beginning to the end, even if I think that in the end this game would remain a basically a deathmatch in a huge map.

So, back the lee enfield to one shot one kill.

[Herb (DayZ) 121]

Your second link goes to the same page.

But to answer your question as to why, this is a GAME. Regarless what actual stats are in real life, the devs are going to balance the weapons so there isnt 1 super weapon etc.

Wrong. This is a SIMULATOR, made to be realistic. Balance is of no concern.

[Tweakie 199]

Rocket/DayZ didn't nerf the guns. ARMA/BIS did...there is a right and a wrong forum. Go take it up on the right one.

And the Enfield still basicly is a one shot kill gun....soo what gives? You shoot him once, he drops like a sack of potatoes and you wait for him to bleed out, or put another round into him.

[MegriM 6]

.308 is slightly more powerfull than .303 british (on standard loads), but nothing you'd notice IRL. As for bolt action being 10-30% more powerfull... I've never heard of any semiauto that used 30% of the energy to reload or even 10%.

[koze 113]

.308 is slightly more powerfull than .303 british (on standard loads), but nothing you'd notice IRL. As for bolt action being 10-30% more powerfull... I've never heard of any semiauto that used 30% of the energy to reload or even 10%.

Firstly, that 10-30% of the power is lost because of the recoil mechanism. When the bullet if fired it has to push back the spring so the shell can be ejected and the next bullet chambered. Now with a bolt action rifle you have to manually chamber the next round by pulling back the bolt and forward, when it's fired the bullet doesnt have to push back a bolt or anything so all the power goes into the bullet.

Also, the army wouldnt have bolt action rifles for no reason, for those people who say they are more accurate than a normal rifle, maybe they are, but that is in the rifling in the barrel, and has nothing to do with the bolt action mechanism itself.

[Pyro_Marine 147]

Wrong. This is a SIMULATOR, made to be realistic. Balance is of no concern.

Bam

[Zeromentor 169]

In agreement. The Lee Enfield nerf was too much. If I remember correctly, the .303 is a 7.7x54mm round. That's a bigger bullet, with more gunpowder behind it. That makes it hit HARDER than a .308 (7.62x51mm NATO).

In reality, the .303 would hit slightly harder, at about the same range. Ingame, it was a little much to do 12.5k when the .308 did 8k.

Now? 9mms are next to useless (14 rounds to down a player) .45s are a joke (lol, you HAVE to reload to kill someone, without missing, unless you get a headshot). Shotguns are crap, AK74s are more of a joke than ever (Uncontrollable Recoil+Low Damage= Bad Weapon) and the poor Lee Enfield does LESS damage than a .308... Who thought that was right!?

As it is, we might as well be decked out with the latest anti-ballistic body armor, cause that is what is feels like when you get hit. I mean c'mon. 14 9mm rounds to kill a man? WHAT?

Either the damage should be reverted, with .308s going UP in damage (9k) or the .308s should be reduced in damage to equal is closer to reality, then Rocket can adjust our blood pool down to match. (Say 9.5k blood total, instead of 12k)

[koze 113]

In agreement. The Lee Enfield nerf was too much. If I remember correctly, the .303 is a 7.7x54mm round. That's a bigger bullet, with more gunpowder behind it. That makes it hit HARDER than a .308 (7.62x51mm NATO).

In reality, the .303 would hit slightly harder, at about the same range. Ingame, it was a little much to do 12.5k when the .308 did 8k.

Now? 9mms are next to useless (14 rounds to down a player) .45s are a joke (lol, you HAVE to reload to kill someone, without missing, unless you get a headshot). Shotguns are crap, AK74s are more of a joke than ever (Uncontrollable Recoil+Low Damage= Bad Weapon) and the poor Lee Enfield does LESS damage than a .308... Who thought that was right!?

As it is, we might as well be decked out with the latest anti-ballistic body armor, cause that is what is feels like when you get hit. I mean c'mon. 14 9mm rounds to kill a man? WHAT?

Either the damage should be reverted, with .308s going UP in damage (9k) or the .308s should be reduced in damage to equal is closer to reality, then Rocket can adjust our blood pool down to match. (Say 9.5k blood total, instead of 12k)

I agree, they should either revert to the last patch or lower our blood level.

[MegriM 6]

Firstly, that 10-30% of the power is lost because of the recoil mechanism. When the bullet if fired it has to push back the spring so the shell can be ejected and the next bullet chambered. Now with a bolt action rifle you have to manually chamber the next round by pulling back the bolt and forward, when it's fired the bullet doesnt have to push back a bolt or anything so all the power goes into the bullet.

Also, the army wouldnt have bolt action rifles for no reason, for those people who say they are more accurate than a normal rifle, maybe they are, but that is in the rifling in the barrel, and has nothing to do with the bolt action mechanism itself.

The velocities will be nearly identical, as the reload mechanics don't kick in untill after the bullet leaves the barrel. The inaccuracy comes from the extra gun movement since the bullet is quite affected by the gasses as it leaves the barrel. (when the gun moves the flow of the gas is directed sideways/up/down and that disturbs the bullets flight.)

In agreement. The Lee Enfield nerf was too much. If I remember correctly, the .303 is a 7.7x54mm round. That's a bigger bullet, with more gunpowder behind it. That makes it hit HARDER than a .308 (7.62x51mm NATO).

In reality, the .303 would hit slightly harder, at about the same range. Ingame, it was a little much to do 12.5k when the .308 did 8k.

Now? 9mms are next to useless (14 rounds to down a player) .45s are a joke (lol, you HAVE to reload to kill someone, without missing, unless you get a headshot). Shotguns are crap, AK74s are more of a joke than ever (Uncontrollable Recoil+Low Damage= Bad Weapon) and the poor Lee Enfield does LESS damage than a .308... Who thought that was right!?

As it is, we might as well be decked out with the latest anti-ballistic body armor, cause that is what is feels like when you get hit. I mean c'mon. 14 9mm rounds to kill a man? WHAT?

Either the damage should be reverted, with .308s going UP in damage (9k) or the .308s should be reduced in damage to equal is closer to reality, then Rocket can adjust our blood pool down to match. (Say 9.5k blood total, instead of 12k)

The .303 has a velocity of 844 m/s (2,770 ft/s) with a 150grain bullet, the .308 has a velocity of 2,820 ft/s (860 m/s) with the same bullet. Ofc you can put more powder in the ,303 and get more speed behind it, I just pulled the avg speeds with the avg loads. It's so identical that you won't notice the difference.

[koze 113]

The velocities will be nearly identical, as the reload mechanics don't kick in untill after the bullet leaves the barrel. The inaccuracy comes from the extra gun movement since the bullet is quite affected by the gasses as it leaves the barrel. (when the gun moves the flow of the gas is directed sideways/up/down and that disturbs the bullets flight.)

The .303 has a velocity of 844 m/s (2,770 ft/s) with a 150grain bullet, the .308 has a velocity of 2,820 ft/s (860 m/s) with the same bullet. Ofc you can put more powder in the ,303 and get more speed behind it, I just pulled the avg speeds with the avg loads. It's so identical that you won't notice the difference.

Have you ever fired a .22 at a rabbit (bolt action) at about 300-400 meters? I have, then i tried it with a semi-automatic .22 rifle. Exactly the same bullet yet one is useless after 400meters, it runs out of power because 30% of the power is going into pushing back the bolt, and ejecting the shell, therefore making the bolt action dominant depending on your situation, ofcourse no ones going to be running around with .22 shooting zombies with them but you get my point. You said, the velocities will be nearly identicle with a 7.62 and a .303, that doesnt meen it gives it more power.

The m16 has a higher velocity than an ak47, but an ak47 has more stopping power because its bullet is bigger, though you cant hit shit with it but thats not the point.

Because of the bolt action mechanism the .303 will travel further because it has more power behind it. You said their velocities are almost identicle, though this doesnt give it more power, but if you think so why would the m14 and Fn Fal have a major advantage over the Lee Enfield if they have the same velocities?

8000 damage for the 7.62x51mm & only 6722 damage for the Lee Enfield. They obviously got something wrong, thats the entire point of this thread.

[Epsilon 349 33]

Have you ever fired a .22 at a rabbit (bolt action) at about 300-400 meters? I have, then i tried it with a semi-automatic .22 rifle. Exactly the same bullet yet one is useless after 400meters, it runs out of power because 30% of the power is going into pushing back the bolt, and ejecting the shell, therefore making the bolt action dominant depending on your situation, ofcourse no ones going to be running around with .22 shooting zombies with them but you get my point.

you have no point. you can't compare a .22LR to a real rifle.

[GexAlmighty 54]

Yeah that is a point, if it is down to Arma that the guns are nerfed rather than DayZ then rocket will need to reduce the blood count for now. i was tempted to suggest nerfing the zombies to balance it, but maybe simply having a lower blood count might make them that little bit harder that everyone seems to want. win win situation

[Zeromentor 169]

-SNIP-

The .303 has a velocity of 844 m/s (2,770 ft/s) with a 150grain bullet, the .308 has a velocity of 2,820 ft/s (860 m/s) with the same bullet. Ofc you can put more powder in the ,303 and get more speed behind it, I just pulled the avg speeds with the avg loads. It's so identical that you won't notice the difference.

Larger and heavier bullet with more speed. That means more kinetic power when it impacts a target. That means more damage. More damage, in a bigger area due to the larger size. EDIT: I have no information on grains ingame, or .303 grain. This is assumption, not fact.

That means it hurts MORE, not less. Sure, killing bucks (deer) you wouldn't notice much of a difference, both will put them down. But in this game, which was suppose to be realistic in damage (until BI F'ed it up), the bigger, faster round does LESS damage. Even worse, on DayZ it doesn't kill in 1-shot. Even worse than that, you can easily survive a .303 ingame, losing around 7k blood after bandaging the bleeding. That's 5k blood remaining, or six 9mm rounds or two 5.56, or two 5.45s. That's a lot of rounds to finish off a guy that was hit with a round that can easily kill any man with a single midsection hit. Understand, ingame we only have tactical vests, not body armor. A .303 should not do less than a .308. But before, 12.5k vs 8k was a bit too much. I said once, that the .308 might need to be buffed UP, to come into line with the .303, or that the it needs to be toned down (which realistically would have been around 9k).

Instead, we are playing a game where .45s are nearly useless versus players (you get the jump on me, but as you reload I can turn around, line up my rifle, and poke you four times with a M4, ending your days). The great 12 gauge slug does like 4k damage, which is crazy considering the sheer size of something like that hitting you from so close. The 9mm is laughable. 889 damage? Makes the already weak 9mm MP5 look like a BB gun. No. Like a .22.

Edited August 7, 2012 by Zeromentor

[koze 113]

you have no point. you can't compare a .22LR to a real rifle.

What im trying to tell you is the difference between bolt action and semi-auto. If it works in small scale it obviously works in a larger scale.

There is a reason why the army uses bolt action rifles.

Asif you could reply to me with something this stupid, didnt you just read my recent posts on this thread?

[Zeromentor 169]

What im trying to tell you is the difference between bolt action and semi-auto. If it works in small scale it obviously works in a larger scale.

There is a reason why the army uses bolt action rifles.

Asif you could reply to me with something this stupid, didnt you just read my recent posts on this thread?

It's not about the loss of power, but the doube action going on inside the weapon messing with accuracy.

I'll use a revolver as an example. Great little tool if you ask me.

Single Action revolvers. Pull back the hammer, pull the trigger. Hammer goes down, bullet is fired from the chamber, through barrel. No movement after the pin hits the round, outside of recoil.

Double Action revolvers. You pull the trigger, hammer goes back, drops forward, pin hits round, bullet fires, cylinder rotates. More movement, gun wiggles around more as the bullet leaves the barrel. Less accurate.

But they can be the same round, say .38.

Bolt actions are the same, and only a little bit of the power (nothing really noticable) is used to push back the "thingy" (Mind Blocked, damn) that ejects the spent round and insert a new one into the chamber. Movement means less accuracy.

I can't help but feel like I'm using the term, "Accuracy" wrong. Maybe I mean precision? Oh well, it's 5am for me here, and I'm tired.

[aksuduud 64]

I googled a bit and it seems that Lee enfield has about 100 foot pounds of muzzle energy more than m14 rifle, so technically they should do almost the same amount of damage.

[run4way 45]

You may leave your comments for this bug:

https://dev-heaven.net/issues/38717

[MegriM 6]

Larger and heavier bullet with more speed. That means more kinetic power when it impacts a target. That means more damage. More damage, in a bigger area due to the larger size. EDIT: I have no information on grains ingame, or .303 grain. This is assumption, not fact.

That means it hurts MORE, not less. Sure, killing bucks (deer) you wouldn't notice much of a difference, both will put them down. But in this game, which was suppose to be realistic in damage (until BI F'ed it up), the bigger, faster round does LESS damage.

I used 150 grain vs 150 grain standard loads. Sure the .303 is slightly bigger (7,7mm vs 7.62mm), but it's nothing that has an impact. So you have two bullets that weigh the same, one is slightly bigger, but the other is slightly faster (860m/s vs 844 m/s) which doesn't do any real difference either.

It's the same with the 180grain bullet, the .308 is slightly faster again.

All in all, the .308 does more damage.

As for semi vs bolt; I get about 865m/s in my M1 Garand with some factory ammo I had lying around, my friend gets 866m/s with the same rounds in his Tikka T3 (50 rounds in the box, we shot 25 each, both velocities being averages over the 25 rounds). That's about 0.12% difference which isn't worth mentioning or debating imho.

Edited August 7, 2012 by MegriM