On Game Theory and the Logic of Bandit Identifiers

[Ramblin Hans 118]

if I'm classified as a bandit, no one will interact with me or believe my good intentions because they see me as a scary bandit. They will just shoot me on sight or run/hide.

Good points, but right now I think its safe to say that everyone assumes that everyone is a bandit. People will still understand that just because one has a bandit skin doesn't mean they are a cold blooded killer. Just that it is more likely they are. Or at a minimum it will identify them as a threat, someone who won't hesitate to kill if threatened.

I have avoided PvP alot as I'm learning, but I see myself in the same situation as you, as I think most players will.

[Kerwyn 77]

I really dont know the solution to this problem - every solution seems to move towards an identifier based on humanity. Perhaps you could go the other way, identify players with good humanity but not bad. That way a player could choose to gain a skin identifier by his actions instead of one being enforced.

I like this idea actually, I don't know what the skin would be though, maybe a soldier with a 'medic' flash? as if I recall, patching up other survivors was the easiest way to raise humanity.

[magrathea 11]

I think your 'bandit status' should only be increased through killing a survivor. Killing a bandit should have no effect on your status. It would then be impossible to engage in real banditry (seeking out and attacking relatively defencesless or friendly players) without gaining bandit status. At the same time, it would always be possible to defend yourself against a bandit without your status changing. This would make bandits themselves tragets for survivor players; survivors would be able to hunt down and loot bandit players without becoming a bandit themselves. This would allow players to settle into two opposed factions - survivors, for whome PVP is entirely optional and bandits for whome PVP is a defining characterstic. Imo this would be realistic; people who attack innocent, defenceless people in real life tend to end up as targets for entire communities; they are hunted down and hung from trees

Edited August 6, 2012 by magrathea

[Knollte 13]

Agreed I dont understand what issues all the kos people have with bandit identifiers they can still play like the like

theres nothing that gonna stop them.

I do however understand to a certain degree the people who argue about the self defense killings I for one found it possible to avoid

killing in self defense allthough I still died because of that sometimes but still theres nothing that changes from the state of the game now.

While Bandit skins where still in place there even where some people who didnt shoot bandits but instead tried to communicate first and teamed up( but that was with sidechat still active and people warning each other about threats).

The self defense problem can be adressed by numerous ways i dont know how much is codable with arma

but it should not be to hard to make anyone a free target who shot in the last 10 seconds or something along this lines(that would also be kind of realistic gunshots make people nervous).

Edited August 6, 2012 by Knollte

[Chambers (DayZ) 27]

If we had more skins to pick from, say anything non-military (other than the existing camo and ghillie) that is present in the regular Chernarus ArmA 2 game, most of these issues could be addressed.

Now that skins are much more stable, it would be great to have more selection. We need to separate the 'forced bandit skin' issue from the 'choose bandit/other skin' issues. Adding more skins could make things much more interesting when meeting people. You could have warnings like 'watch out for the deadly group of old ladies on US 1194' or 'The Metalhead/rocker kids are terrorizing UK8, be careful'

Give us the option to have more of an identity than just survivor/bandit, and maybe some of these issues can find a possible resolution by themselves.

[gizm0 96]

I think having custom/private skins that groups can use to identify each other, however they would need to uses a special squad url, so you would have to infiltrate the group to earn access to their skin and use it against other players. (this gives more verity of skins, as well as gives custom skins to groups to allow them to have a uniformed apperence). However that would be the best solution I can think of however it doesn't have to replace findable skins in-game.

Edited August 7, 2012 by Orthus

[Chambers (DayZ) 27]

I think having custom/private skins that groups can use to identify each other, however they would need to uses a special squad url,

That's a lot of server load on the DB, and would increase loading time to download all skins for the players in the game, and download new skins once new players arrive. Something like that would be nice, but waaaay down the road.

Making all existing skins that everyone already has available would be an interesting test for now though.

I really want to see what happens and what unexpected things will come of it.

[gizm0 96]

That's a lot of server load on the DB, and would increase loading time to download all skins for the players in the game, and download new skins once new players arrive. Something like that would be nice, but waaaay down the road.

Making all existing skins that everyone already has available would be an interesting test for now though.

I really want to see what happens and what unexpected things will come of it.

while it would increase server load, I've seen custom skins done before in APB which has 100 player servers, while the two do use different engines and the apb servers are privately owned by the developers, I do see a more restrictive settings on custom skins working for dayz when it goes stand alone since.

[Vanz0r 16]

Have I missed something or have you all forgotten about Hero skins?

To cut to the chase, if you're a bandit man up and face the music, skins will show you for what you are. Likewise bandit killing 'heros' will be easy to identify and hence something for weaker bandits to stear clear of and for survivors to embrace.

I think it will work out pretty good, good bandits will be good and something for survivors to fear and heros will be something for bandits to fear. Instead of playing fast and loose folks will have to decide what their humanity really is...

Edited August 7, 2012 by VanZ0r

[Chambers (DayZ) 27]

Have I missed something or have you all forgotten about Hero skins?

Hero skins just makes the current situation with bandit skins more extreme. I'd rather see a wide variety of skins that don't act like a uniform across the whole 'server-verse' of DayZ. It would make staying on one or two servers much more meaningful. It would allow people to 'get to know the neighborhood,' and by learning what different groups or individuals do AND being able to identify them by their clothes after a while makes for a better, richer experience.

The users make the story - give them the tools to do so!

Edited August 7, 2012 by Chambers

[stord 74]

The way I see it, this game clearly lost a small portion of his soul by removing bandit skin. It could have been the other way, but it didn't.

We all know it is not realistic at all, but who cares about realism when it could enhance a lot of things the game is missing atm.

Remember Ultima Online anyone? Player killers had their name marked red and at no time did it break the game immersion and fun.

Rocket decided to try and remove bandit skin and I think it was a very wise decision since it is alpha and everything should be tested. But now, when we see how Dayz changed, and how people react nowadays when they encounter other survivors, we can all agree that there is a problem with the actual system.

That's why I think adding the bandit skin system again, with some modifications, could be greatly beneficial for everyone (or almost).

Edited August 7, 2012 by StOrD

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

Because bandits clearly can't shoot at the same time? I don't even know what you're getting at there. The way it works, the bandits almost always win in this scenario. If bandits are identified, though, then there's now a 50/50 chance that at least one survivor escapes and a 50/50 chance that one bandit escapes. Keep adding bandits and survivors if you want, man, it won't make you less wrong. Without bandit identification, bandits are a lot more likely to survive encounters with other people than survivors are.

Another "sometimes the coin lands on its edge" argument? Survivors have a challenge, bandits have an advantage. Survivors aren't guaranteed loot in any encounter. Bandits are guaranteed loot whenever they see someone first. If they see a bandit first, they shoot the bandit and take their loot. If they see a survivor first, they shoot the survivor and take their loot. If they see a survivor after the survivor sees them, they shoot the survivor and take their loot. If they see the bandit after the bandit sees them, they get shot and lose their loot.

One out of four. 25% chance of a bandit dying in any encounter with another player.

Now, if you're a survivor, you see a survivor, you don't shoot...whoops, nevermind, it's a bandit -- he takes your loot. A survivor sees you first -- no, wait, it's a bandit, he took your loot. If you see a survivor, neither one of you shoots. If a survivor sees you, neither one of you shoots.

Two out of four. 50% chance of a survivor dying in any encounter with another player.

And you want to tell me that it's a challenge to play as a bandit by giving me this nonsense about survivors playing more carefully? Know why they play more carefully? Because they're twice as likely to die as you are.

There's a reason you don't play "assassin" with more than one assassin. Everyone would be dead!

If you're defending PvP and want to continue to fight other players, there's no reason for you to cower behind a survivor skin unless you won't stand a chance in a fight. But that's probably the point you're getting at...

Every single one of your responses so far has either "paraphrased" someone incorrectly or plainly just tried to put words into their mouths without really taking their point on board at all. You've even edited your original response to my first post to make my second post look irrelevant.

I think this is a debate that needs to be had, unfortunatly I think your the wrong guy for the job. You seem to be convinced that your idea is 100% correct and seem unable to take other peoples opinions on board rendering this debate pointless. I'm pretty sure whatever response I give to your original post is going to be shot down in flames so I'll concentrate my effort towards a post on a similar subject with someone who who is open to differing ideas and opinions.

Much love.

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

The way I see it, this game clearly lost a small portion of his soul by removing bandit skin. It could have been the other way, but it didn't.

We all know it is not realistic at all, but who cares about realism when it could enhance a lot of things the game is missing atm.

Remember Ultima Online anyone? Player killers had their name marked red and at no time did it break the game immersion and fun.

Rocket decided to try and remove bandit skin and I think it was a very wise decision since it is alpha and everything should be tested. But now, when we see how Dayz changed, and how people react nowadays when they encounter other survivors, we can all agree that there is a problem with the actual system.

That's why I think adding the bandit skin system again, with some modifications, could be greatly beneficial for everyone (or almost).

Rocket has clearly said several times that just because a game mechanic is removed does not mean that it won't be reintroduced at a later date. This point of the testing process is to do just that, to test different ideas and mechanics.

Hopefully a more elaborate system can be introduced at some point.

[ZedsDeadBaby 2287]

My suggestion for a player identification system.

100% less magical fairy dust sprinkled in your eyes that makes immediately able to distinguish friend from foe with 100% accuracy from 2km away.

100% less total bullshit.

Stop with the magical bullshit suggestions.

Thanks for shopping Zedsmart.

Edited August 7, 2012 by ZedsDeadBaby

[Kar98 27]

My suggestion for a player identification system.

100% less magical fairy dust sprinkled in your eyes that makes immediately able to distinguish friend from foe with 100% accuracy from 2km away.

100% less total bullshit.

Stop with the magical bullshit suggestions.

Thanks for shopping Zedsmart.

I don't like the 'identify from 2km away' business but certainly we need some customisation among groups. If I'm running in groups over 3 people it becomes an absolute nightmare. I would hate to have some vent lag because I'd be full of holes from jumpy teammates :(

[stord 74]

Rocket has clearly said several times that just because a game mechanic is removed does not mean that it won't be reintroduced at a later date. This point of the testing process is to do just that, to test different ideas and mechanics.

Hopefully a more elaborate system can be introduced at some point.

Yes, clearly... but was it not what I just said?

Also, Rocket confirmed in a recent interview that the bandit skin system would probably be reintroduced with the next available patch.

Edited August 7, 2012 by StOrD

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

Yes, clearly... but was it not what I just said?

Also, Rocket confirmed in a recent interview that the bandit skin system would probably be reintroduced with the next available patch.

Perfect, then were all agreed and happiness can rule once again. Also (and I may well be wrong), I thought bandit skins were being brought back but just as an optional clothing item like the Camo and Ghillies. Like I say I may be wrong or it might have changed since the last time I read about it.

[tarquinbb 28]

it's not like you murder 1-2 guys then all of a sudden the floor opens up and a bunch of cenobites pop out to mutilate you with a balaclava.

to be labelled a bandit you have to be a seriously disturbed individual - i don't know the algorithm but it's up there like >10 murders per day (total guess, but it's a pretty impressive total).

if you're a pvp player and you intentionally go out hunting other players to kill, then you should be labelled a psycho bandit. this is the endgame for a LOT of people. so there will be a lot of balaclava's.... :o

anyway, i'm looking forward to the change, it sounds interesting.

Edited August 7, 2012 by tarquinbb

[Never 237]

Your assumptions are flawed by the fact you seem to think survivors don't shoot.

[Faceman Peck 93]

It's not just bandits that think it will break the game. I'm a medic and don't want to see identifiers like this. I have a few murders under my belt, all in self defense, so what category do i fall into?

If bandits want to pick up the clothing and choose to wear it then that's cool, but an enforced game mechanic trying to pigeon hole people is never going to work.

This is really all that needs to be said. The Op does make a valid point but the bottom line remains: Bandits should be exactly like the rest of us unless they want to loot a different outfit. Having tell tale audio sounds or skins that separate bandits from the survivors tips their hat or their hand before it is played. That is not immersion or an element of realism, that is stupidty. A bandit has the element of surprise going for them, take that away with a heartbeat or a specific skin and being a bandit would cease to be fun or have a point to it.

[Chambers (DayZ) 27]

A bandit has the element of surprise going for them, take that away with a heartbeat or a specific skin and being a bandit would cease to be fun or have a point to it.

Indeed. The key here is choice. The uncertainty of a bandit status adds something to the experience, but here's a option:

Humanity works as before, but with these changes:

- If you hit the 'bandit' rank, whenever you spawn, you spawn with the bandit skin.

- Spawns of other outfits are given a small % chance in residential buildings.

- Bandits can change skins if new outfits are found.

- Outfits cannot be stripped from dead survivors - that would just increase killings and the ease of changing makes the bandit skin 99% useless. Skins have to be found at spawn points or tents/vehicles.

- Remember, one or two guys in a bandit skin may be just a target for those up for the challenge. A group bandits in bandit skins, however, is something to be damn wary of. This psychological aspect may foster a 'pack mentality' and actually change bandit group behavior in a way. The bandit skin may be a curse for the lone wolf, but an interesting tool for bandits operating in larger (4-5+) groups.

But perhaps, one last addition -

- If your humanity score drops to the lowest 5% possible (what were the limits before? +25000 to -25000? So any score below -23500) you cannot change your skin from the bandit skin (on your next respawn - no automatic changing of skins) until your humanity rises above the 5% limit. This keeps the bandit skin as a permanent mark for only the most ruthless, and addresses the issue of 'borderline' bandits who just crossed over to a bandit designation.

I think this solution can be done with minimal coding (compared to an entirely new feature/mechanic as the humanity/bandit code is still in place AFIK, but deactivated) and minimal database work (Outfits added to database and spawn points set and files are already available for all people currently playing from the existing ArmA 2 files)

Edit - I know many bandits will just run to their tents ASAP and be back to normal, but so what? Almost all of us do the same with our weapons and gear anyways once we have a tent. While they are running alone back to their camp, they are the target. They get a little bit of fear. Only the ones with the most blood on their hands are stuck with the bandit skin, and it will mean something again.

Edited August 10, 2012 by Chambers