Guns & Gameplay

[Deuzerre 64]

@ Scotty the engineer:

The problem I see with the propositions is that if you play on a low population server, you have almost no chances to drop any "Good" loot, and tents. A fixed amount of tents per server would spread out the population a bit more evenly. But I feel it's a step in the right direction.

@ Zarathustra:

[btw, Nietzche, really?]

1. I just ask for an additional line for each weapon in the character's inventory, possibly rounded up to the closest 50 when a character just disconnects. It wouldn't affect server load much more than the difference between an inventory full of empty cans compared to an inventory filled with a few car wheels. Eventually, every magazine will have to be traked to prevent exploits, so just treating a gun as a magazine with a bigger number shouldn't be a problem. As for the high spawn rates, with my last life I ahve 0 player kills, and around 300 zed kills. A friend originally gave me a DMR I dumped somewhere, and apart from half of my current loot I took from an encampement (I promptly destroyed after stealing everything and stuffing them in one tent), the rest is Crash sites & deer stands. 3/4 crash sites, I find a FN FAL, and 1/2 I find either an AS or a M117. These are not duplicated, nor scripts, just regular raids. If I wanted to, I'd just have a dozen tents filled with those WMDs, but there is no point (I don't even have a tent right now, playing for the thrills).

The life lengh of a weapon (especially if most weapons you find aren't in pristine health from the start) would really change the number of guns available all around. I think it's a possible solution, and duplitacting/scripting is a whole other matter, that this idea isn't here to solve.

2. Agreed. Maybe they could keep one of the two with lower ammunition available. But two of those mean there is more chance to find one of them easily.

3. I thought more of the recoil than the ream accuracy. Actually, Sway and recoil are the two real aspects that would affect a "Gun noob in bad health". The accuracy should be weapon dependant. There is one thing that shocks me in what you said though: You shouldn't ever use automatic (Only semi and burst) against players in range anyway. All guns have a semi mode. Use it. With a higher recoil, people would have to find ways to compensate, and sway would really change the chances of players that would otherwise pray and spray. Recoil always is the same, and sway doesn't change anything if the target is in the middle of the sights.

@ Dickhat:

Thanks, but I don't think that skill modifiers have a place (yet at least) in DayZ. i believe it's in Rocket's mind as said in an interview for characters to have a "Profession", but otherwise I think it's better to stick with "Generic dude/gal". I just want generac dude to be slightly less potent with guns.

No.

Mh, quite an elaborate answer. Go on, I was really interested in reading you comment, further development would sure be welcome since you seem to be able to make sentences that manage to include no verbs. Well done sir, you have my empty can.

Edited August 1, 2012 by Deuzerre

[Dickhat 99]

SKILL MODIFIERS!? REALLY!?

Goddamn the current generation.

Such a dissappointment.

It makes sense. The more you use something the better you become at doing it.

In a realistic point of view - which is arma main point - it is a really good mechanic.

[Deuzerre 64]

The only real problem with that would be the fact that progress would need to be really slow for that experience to "Sink in". If it's too fast, it's gamey. if it's too slow, it's not even worth it.

[erwin@goldmail.de 4]

A skill bar for weapons seems kind of odd to me.

It would be like: Shoot 50 Zs in the face and you will reload one second faster. - Leads to hillbilly-shootouts near small villages just to increase the skill.

I'd like the idea of improving your weapon skill, you'd be more bound to your character when you/he/she acutally "learned" something ingame (so you would not just be fixed on (high-tier-)loot), but couldn't find any idea that would fit for me.

Hope that's some kind of opinion you wanted to read.

Not sure, due to the last sentence, that you are serious, but thanks anyway.

Sorry for your confusion!

I am serious!

Maybe I couldn't express myself as I intended (first language: german).

[Eldo (DayZ) 7]

Too Long: Don't wanna read:

- Create ways for guns to disapear other than the death in the middle of nowhere (by them wearing off or other possibilities).

- Erase the heavy snipers from the game (Not "standard" ones)

- Reduce accuracy/increase recoil of guns to improve gameplay and firefights and to simulate the "Survivor, not soldier" aspect..

I've been thinking a bit about the game as it currently is. I know features should be coming around someday, and I hope it's rather soon. As glitchy as this game is, it's still great.

1) Everything but the Guns Sink.

Anyway, like many other posts, I'll complain a bit at the availability of "High end" gear/weapons that are too frequent. It's like in MMOs: Gold is earned at a fast rate, but for the in-game economy to remain good there exists "gold sinks" where gold has to be wasted. Except in this game it's guns. It's relatively easy to find a good gun when you know where to look.

The only way a gun can "Disappear" is for the carrier to die in the middle of nowhere by "Natural" causes, and thanks (?) to snipers that kill for fun and don't claim loot. Sometimes, you just find a better gun and keep it so you dump the old one. But overall, the numbers of guns keeps increasing and increasing. They are kept in tents, vehicles, and generally they just change pockets, but don't go to oblivion.

Furthermore, they are quite easy to keep fed with ammo for the standard ones (Stanag, .45, AK 30., 9mm mags) even when not counting the exploits to refill almost empty magazines while for harder to find (Crash sites) weapons it might be a bit harder, but for that you keep a plentiful ammo gun in your pockets, and use the special gun more scarcely.

What I'd like to see is a way for either guns to become unusable (Small lifebar that goes down the more you use it, like the ammo count. A standard AK would last around 3500 shots, while a M16 2700. You could find already damaged guns) so you actually have to throw them away when they break down AND/OR much tighter loot tables AND/OR more varied weapon calibre so mags for a single category of weapon would be more scarce.

2) Friendlies in Cherno?

I think, for all of us who ever shot rifles with scopes, even for a try, that it's way harder than in game. Using anti-materiel rifles while crouched, for example, is quite absurd. Even aiming is really easy, with barely any sway. With just a good eye, I can in game down a straight moving target 500-700m away without too much trouble, even without a rangefinder. Combined with the fact that 50cal rifles exist in two variants, both relatively easy to use, find (Every two downed helicopter I can find one, with plentiful ammo) and down a target in one shot... These are out of scale for the game. Sure, they could be use, as their name would suggest, as anti-materiel, but the chance of finding a moving vehicle during the day are very close to nil, so the guns are used against infantry. Here, I would simple remove the one-shot, completely overkill, sniper rifles that are out of scale.

Other sniper rifles, like the DMR, might be somehow "Skill-less" too, but there need to be snipers, otherwise people would not be able to do overwatch duty, or simply keep people nervous. Ideally, there should be more bolt action, and less semi-auto, military grade weapons, but here comes 3)

Overall, sniping is a bit too easy and just a paradise for grievers, as it's easy to just raise the E-pen with chains of kills, rince and repeat, but they are needed in the game.

3) Survivor or rambo?

I don't know for you guys, but I'm a random joe in real life. I aim like a drunken sailor at a static target barely 100m away, when Idle, calm, and well rested/fed. Well, I might exaggerate a bit, let's just say that I do a 9/10, in those situations, with an assault rifle, and that's when knowing the basic drills.

But it looks like our survivors/bandits, barely a minute after a few Km hike on elevated terrain, in cold weather, stressed, deprived of rest and sleep, with barely any food (a regime of raw meat, cold fart bean cans, lake water and soda cans), possibly wounded, high on painkillers and morphine, are able to have a very stable aim when standing and crouched, with a heavily weighted backpack. Prone, I can understand. But in the other positions, aiming should be terrible. Recoil should hit hard for most guns, not only the AKM, and long range sniping quite troublesome. The survivors aren't Soldiers or Warriors: They are guys that have been washed ashore.

In this game/mod/alpha, whatever you want to call it, the weapons do "Realistic" (less so with the latest ARMA patch and damage reductions considering the survivors' blood amounts) amounts of damage to human targets. When you combine that with "Super aim", the PvP aspect is really all about being the first to aim and click, as it's just easy to shoot and kill (Not including Disconnecters, but we know the issue will be solved someday). If aiming was slightly (not dramatically) harder, firefights would become more intense, with people able to return fire. Engagements would waste more ammo, and there would me more risks. If it becomes more risky to attack someone, people would be less prone to shootin each other at first sight, disposing of the threat in an instant. Only people with actual agressive wills would shoot on sight, causing the bandits to exist as they should: A cast of players that keep the others afraid; on their toes.

Against Zeds, they are already easy to dispatch by just running to the cosest building/hill anyway. Sure, it's annoying and counter intuitive, but I hope something will be done to "Fix" them eventually so they become a real threat, not just a mild annoyance.

Well, that's sort of all for now. Wanted to write a 4) about the weapons damage / bullet, but apart from AK 74s stupid nerf, 9mm "more than one clip to kill a zed" and M1911 <<< Revolver due to poor accuracy, a lee enfield that barks more than bites and used to give low gears a change against high gears, shotguns that were already short range compared to reality when they actually go quite far but have been further nerfed, and One-shot easy to use snipers, there isn't much to say.

Just want opinions about this wall of text, and the gameplay implications.

Note if you read to that line: Good job; the others: Go on trolling as you usually do when walls of text hurt you heads, and comment the usual rubbish of "I have an opinion about something I didn't even bother to read".

The one thing I mainly agree on is that you can crouch, shoot a .50 cal and kill someone from 500-600 meters, almost no sway. It's unrealistic, it would be impossible to pull of a shot of that magnitude in real life, and this is a realistic zombie survival.

[gr33nth1ng 6]

The survivors aren't Soldiers or Warriors: They are guys that have been washed ashore.

So that's why you spawn on the beach! lol

[Deuzerre 64]

So that's why you spawn on the beach! lol

Stangely enough, yeah.

But it's a gues, it might just be god telling us "Now, you exist. Go survive, LOL!" thinking it's cool to start at Kamenka.

A skill bar for weapons seems kind of odd to me.

It would be like: Shoot 50 Zs in the face and you will reload one second faster. - Leads to hillbilly-shootouts near small villages just to increase the skill.

I'd like the idea of improving your weapon skill, you'd be more bound to your character when you/he/she acutally "learned" something ingame (so you would not just be fixed on (high-tier-)loot), but couldn't find any idea that would fit for me.

Sorry for your confusion!

I am serious!

Maybe I couldn't express myself as I intended (first language: german).

My first language is French, so don't worry. A wholehearted thanks then!

The one thing I mainly agree on is that you can crouch, shoot a .50 cal and kill someone from 500-600 meters, almost no sway. It's unrealistic, it would be impossible to pull of a shot of that magnitude in real life, and this is a realistic zombie survival.

Thanks for the input.Why weren't you so keen on the other ideas, and why specifically OK with this one?

[evoxtom 142]

As for recoil and those picturing themselves with the ability to shoot like a soldier of future under high stress... Aren't you special?

Id be ok with more recoil so long as it gets steadier the more you shoot/kill things... Progression with accuracy and experience.

Many people who say guns don't jam or don't have signs of wear ... I just smdh.

Many people I teach how to shoot a rifle can't even get the proper angle to look down the flip up sights/irons the first time.

[gr33nth1ng 6]

The one thing I mainly agree on is that you can crouch, shoot a .50 cal and kill someone from 500-600 meters, almost no sway. It's unrealistic, it would be impossible to pull of a shot of that magnitude in real life, and this is a realistic zombie survival.

Uh.. I can hit a man sized target at 5-600M with few problems, no optics, pretty damn consistently with a rifle. Depending on who you ask the effective point accuracy of an m16 is 5-600M and area accuracy up to 800 meters. I dont think its that tough of a shot in a seated position, even taking a knee I have made that shot. Now if you mean crouched, as in "duck walking", i.e. knees bent with only your feet touching the ground, then yeah that's pretty ridiculous. I dont think the stance alone would make it impossible, the weight of a .50 is not something to scoff at.. their fucking heavy, like 40 pounds! But they do reach out to over 1500M.

Edited August 1, 2012 by gr33nth1ng

[Erik (DayZ) 61]

I can understand why you would want those snipers gone. In the end it would be just the CZ550 that should stay because its actualy hard to shoot with it. But imo there should be atleast 1 higher tier sniper that woulld still requite skill to shoot with.

[Deuzerre 64]

Uh.. I can hit a man sized target at 5-600M with few problems, no optics, pretty damn consistently with a rifle. Depending on who you ask the effective point accuracy of an m16 is 5-600M and area accuracy up to 800 meters. I dont think its that tough of a shot in a seated position, even taking a knee I have made that shot. Now if you mean crouched, as in "duck walking", i.e. knees bent with only your feet touching the ground, then yeah that's pretty ridiculous. I dont think the stance alone would make it impossible, the weight of a .50 is not something to scoff at.. their fucking heavy, like 40 pounds! But they do reach out to over 1500M.

Ever shot a 50 cal? I haven't, but saw someone shooting one. He misplaced it and got severely wounded on the shoulder. I'd like to see you shoot that beast while crouched. Anyone below 100kg would just fall down, and to hit a target that way?

Anyway, managing, with no scope, to down a target around 800m? Pics or didn't happen. Seriously, with 5.56 NATO, making that kind of shot?

[Eldo (DayZ) 7]

Too Long: Don't wanna read:

- Create ways for guns to disapear other than the death in the middle of nowhere (by them wearing off or other possibilities).

- Erase the heavy snipers from the game (Not "standard" ones)

- Reduce accuracy/increase recoil of guns to improve gameplay and firefights and to simulate the "Survivor, not soldier" aspect..

I've been thinking a bit about the game as it currently is. I know features should be coming around someday, and I hope it's rather soon. As glitchy as this game is, it's still great.

1) Everything but the Guns Sink.

Anyway, like many other posts, I'll complain a bit at the availability of "High end" gear/weapons that are too frequent. It's like in MMOs: Gold is earned at a fast rate, but for the in-game economy to remain good there exists "gold sinks" where gold has to be wasted. Except in this game it's guns. It's relatively easy to find a good gun when you know where to look.

The only way a gun can "Disappear" is for the carrier to die in the middle of nowhere by "Natural" causes, and thanks (?) to snipers that kill for fun and don't claim loot. Sometimes, you just find a better gun and keep it so you dump the old one. But overall, the numbers of guns keeps increasing and increasing. They are kept in tents, vehicles, and generally they just change pockets, but don't go to oblivion.

Furthermore, they are quite easy to keep fed with ammo for the standard ones (Stanag, .45, AK 30., 9mm mags) even when not counting the exploits to refill almost empty magazines while for harder to find (Crash sites) weapons it might be a bit harder, but for that you keep a plentiful ammo gun in your pockets, and use the special gun more scarcely.

What I'd like to see is a way for either guns to become unusable (Small lifebar that goes down the more you use it, like the ammo count. A standard AK would last around 3500 shots, while a M16 2700. You could find already damaged guns) so you actually have to throw them away when they break down AND/OR much tighter loot tables AND/OR more varied weapon calibre so mags for a single category of weapon would be more scarce.

2) Friendlies in Cherno?

I think, for all of us who ever shot rifles with scopes, even for a try, that it's way harder than in game. Using anti-materiel rifles while crouched, for example, is quite absurd. Even aiming is really easy, with barely any sway. With just a good eye, I can in game down a straight moving target 500-700m away without too much trouble, even without a rangefinder. Combined with the fact that 50cal rifles exist in two variants, both relatively easy to use, find (Every two downed helicopter I can find one, with plentiful ammo) and down a target in one shot... These are out of scale for the game. Sure, they could be use, as their name would suggest, as anti-materiel, but the chance of finding a moving vehicle during the day are very close to nil, so the guns are used against infantry. Here, I would simple remove the one-shot, completely overkill, sniper rifles that are out of scale.

Other sniper rifles, like the DMR, might be somehow "Skill-less" too, but there need to be snipers, otherwise people would not be able to do overwatch duty, or simply keep people nervous. Ideally, there should be more bolt action, and less semi-auto, military grade weapons, but here comes 3)

Overall, sniping is a bit too easy and just a paradise for grievers, as it's easy to just raise the E-pen with chains of kills, rince and repeat, but they are needed in the game.

3) Survivor or rambo?

I don't know for you guys, but I'm a random joe in real life. I aim like a drunken sailor at a static target barely 100m away, when Idle, calm, and well rested/fed. Well, I might exaggerate a bit, let's just say that I do a 9/10, in those situations, with an assault rifle, and that's when knowing the basic drills.

But it looks like our survivors/bandits, barely a minute after a few Km hike on elevated terrain, in cold weather, stressed, deprived of rest and sleep, with barely any food (a regime of raw meat, cold fart bean cans, lake water and soda cans), possibly wounded, high on painkillers and morphine, are able to have a very stable aim when standing and crouched, with a heavily weighted backpack. Prone, I can understand. But in the other positions, aiming should be terrible. Recoil should hit hard for most guns, not only the AKM, and long range sniping quite troublesome. The survivors aren't Soldiers or Warriors: They are guys that have been washed ashore.

In this game/mod/alpha, whatever you want to call it, the weapons do "Realistic" (less so with the latest ARMA patch and damage reductions considering the survivors' blood amounts) amounts of damage to human targets. When you combine that with "Super aim", the PvP aspect is really all about being the first to aim and click, as it's just easy to shoot and kill (Not including Disconnecters, but we know the issue will be solved someday). If aiming was slightly (not dramatically) harder, firefights would become more intense, with people able to return fire. Engagements would waste more ammo, and there would me more risks. If it becomes more risky to attack someone, people would be less prone to shootin each other at first sight, disposing of the threat in an instant. Only people with actual agressive wills would shoot on sight, causing the bandits to exist as they should: A cast of players that keep the others afraid; on their toes.

Against Zeds, they are already easy to dispatch by just running to the cosest building/hill anyway. Sure, it's annoying and counter intuitive, but I hope something will be done to "Fix" them eventually so they become a real threat, not just a mild annoyance.

Well, that's sort of all for now. Wanted to write a 4) about the weapons damage / bullet, but apart from AK 74s stupid nerf, 9mm "more than one clip to kill a zed" and M1911 <<< Revolver due to poor accuracy, a lee enfield that barks more than bites and used to give low gears a change against high gears, shotguns that were already short range compared to reality when they actually go quite far but have been further nerfed, and One-shot easy to use snipers, there isn't much to say.

Just want opinions about this wall of text, and the gameplay implications.

Note if you read to that line: Good job; the others: Go on trolling as you usually do when walls of text hurt you heads, and comment the usual rubbish of "I have an opinion about something I didn't even bother to read".

The one thing I mainly agree on is that you can crouch, shoot a .50 cal and kill someone from 500-600 meters, almost no sway. It's unrealistic, it would be impossible to pull of a shot of that magnitude in real life, and this is a realistic zombie survival.

[sarlac 10]

As a gun owner I can tell you that guns don't just wear out due to use. You do have to clean them though and things CAN and DO break. I feel like having to clean weapons to prevent malfunctions would be a nice addition but this too would need to be after a huge number of rounds have been fired. An AK for example can easily go through 1000 rounds before it needs to be cleaned to prevent jams and malfunctions. How may times have you actually had a single weapon in this game long enough to actually need to clean it? My last life was 34 days and in that time I carried MANY different weapons. I doubt if I fired more than 200 rounds through any of them before trading them in on another. The only exception was my glock17. I had that thing for 2 weeks and it was my most used weapon. If it had been a real one I would have needed to clean it several times.

Anyone who played farcry 2 knows that having weapons arbitrarily fall apart sucks.

[Deuzerre 64]

Yes, but the weapons you own weren't found in a hangar/at a helicopter crash, aren't used outside under the rain with a big ambiant humidity. They are maintained and preserved.

Part of my idea was to find some of the guns in already bad shape, and really going bad with use due to "poor treatment". A "new" AK barrel is supposed to shoot around 50K rounds (We'll never shoot that much) before being worn out and losing accuracy. The average M16 barrel lasts around 35K. A continuous usage (Full auto of several mags) can and often does heat the barrel to the point that it starts not shooting (perfectly) straight after it cooled down.

I never asked for it to be as bad as in Farcry 2 (You'd believe the air was acidic... Ridiculous). Just that some guns start in bad shape, and get worn after usage and time. That way, a weapon going from hand to hand would end up in such a poor shape that there would be no reason to keep it, therefore decreasing the number of weapons "Naturally".

[Bydo 3]

I do not like the idea of weapons wearing off. Collecting equipment and weapons always were a big goal for me in many games. Not able to keep my treasures, and use them for my advantage, because they will break if I do so, will destroy my intentions do go hunting for rare items in the first place.

Very high value weapons should indeed spawn less.

Adding a randomised chance of missing or hitting shots would ruin the game completely. Oneshotting someone because you aimed perfectly in a hazardous situation should always be rewarding!

[Dickhat 99]

Uh.. I can hit a man sized target at 5-600M with few problems, no optics, pretty damn consistently with a rifle.

Haha, no you can't.

Edited August 2, 2012 by Dickhat

[Deuzerre 64]

I do not like the idea of weapons wearing off. Collecting equipment and weapons always were a big goal for me in many games. Not able to keep my treasures, and use them for my advantage, because they will break if I do so, will destroy my intentions do go hunting for rare items in the first place.

Very high value weapons should indeed spawn less.

Adding a randomised chance of missing or hitting shots would ruin the game completely. Oneshotting someone because you aimed perfectly in a hazardous situation should always be rewarding!

Actually.. I never mentioned in my posts that I wanted "Bad" effects with the weapon wear. I just want them to be so much scrap metal and plastic and wood when "broken".

It would also help your approach, give you a goal to keep searching for good loot in good shape.

I'm not against weapon getting slightly worse and having incidents the more worn they are though.

Edited August 2, 2012 by Deuzerre

[xximrtwoixx 104]

I always think that mechanics that strive to provide an authentic take on reality are better than arbitrary nerfs or removal of weapons.

Example

AS50/M107 is huge, heavy, and deadly IRL in game its simply deadly there is nothing there to simulate the drawbacks of using the weapon system that IRL keep it reserved for situational usage.

This would be best addressed via encumbrance and an authentic representation of pack/gear storage. Carrying this weapon around should make you slower, much slower. You should not be able to store it fully assembled in your pack or in a vehicle. You should not be able to enter a vehicle with the weapon equiped and you should not be able to fire it from a non set position and expect any type of accuracy due to its weight. These sub systems like inventory management and encumbrance aren't flashy like weapons/vehicles etc, but they are where you turn to provide balance not nerfs, gamey mechanics, or arbitrary removal.

There is a reason IRL that the M14 or M24/700 is used against personel targets and this could be replicated via mechancis.

I am for a skill system for the mod and I do think it should include fire arms, but I don't think it should effect your aim, that is *Your* skill and should not be affected or nerfed by a system. Skills should be point buy so you can make your character exactly what you want. Fire arm skills should again revolve around the subsystems or actions that go into using the weapon like reloading, identifying ammunition for your gun, deploying/readying your gun, recovering from jams if they were incorporated, cleaning/maintaining, repairing etc. If you give someone a weapon they will figure out how to get it off saftey, fire the weapon, and reload the weapon. They may not be *fast* and this is what can be simulated with skills, just as a lack of cartridge knowledge could be simulated, but its the players skill that decides if when the gun goes boom the target goes down.

[TheSwede 11]

Haha, no you can't.

Haters gonna hate. Given all the time in the world, knowledge of the sights, a comfortable and stable firing position, anyone with half a brain would be able to shoot that well. Who are you to say that this man isn't former military, LEO, sport shooter, or just plain avid fan of firearms?

[Deuzerre 64]

Haters gonna hate. Given all the time in the world, knowledge of the sights, a comfortable and stable firing position, anyone with half a brain would be able to shoot that well. Who are you to say that this man isn't former military, LEO, sport shooter, or just plain avid fan of firearms?

Maybe. I'm not that good a shot, and I'm ex-footsoldier. You can't expect tired and badly fed people to just shoot like some people do with perfect conditions in their favour.

I always think that mechanics that strive to provide an authentic take on reality are better than arbitrary nerfs or removal of weapons.

So do I.

Example

AS50/M107 is huge, heavy, and deadly IRL in game its simply deadly there is nothing there to simulate the drawbacks of using the weapon system that IRL keep it reserved for situational usage.

This would be best addressed via encumbrance and an authentic representation of pack/gear storage. Carrying this weapon around should make you slower, much slower. You should not be able to store it fully assembled in your pack or in a vehicle. You should not be able to enter a vehicle with the weapon equiped and you should not be able to fire it from a non set position and expect any type of accuracy due to its weight. These sub systems like inventory management and encumbrance aren't flashy like weapons/vehicles etc, but they are where you turn to provide balance not nerfs, gamey mechanics, or arbitrary removal.

Again, that would be idea, but it would need a total rework of the system. Same could be said of LMGs. Part of me is against the fact that these rifles are there in the first place: They have no reason to have been included in the first place, apart from "Cool" factor. In case of a "Slow" outbreak, snipers would be called upon. But since they aren't tougher than regular humans, and there is no need to call for anti-vehicle weaponry, "Heavy" snipers wouldn't be deployed all around the place. Regular sniper rifles are perfectly fine, as they fill the role of snipers: Keep people on their toes when crossing open grounds, stuff like that. Anti-materiel rifles don't fit the scenario. AT4 don't either, but they are super rare, and have this "Encumbrance" aspect to them, removing the backpack.

There is a reason IRL that the M14 or M24/700 is used against personel targets and this could be replicated via mechancis.

I am for a skill system for the mod and I do think it should include fire arms, but I don't think it should effect your aim, that is *Your* skill and should not be affected or nerfed by a system. Skills should be point buy so you can make your character exactly what you want. Fire arm skills should again revolve around the subsystems or actions that go into using the weapon like reloading, identifying ammunition for your gun, deploying/readying your gun, recovering from jams if they were incorporated, cleaning/maintaining, repairing etc. If you give someone a weapon they will figure out how to get it off saftey, fire the weapon, and reload the weapon. They may not be *fast* and this is what can be simulated with skills, just as a lack of cartridge knowledge could be simulated, but its the players skill that decides if when the gun goes boom the target goes down.

Oh I love you, that's exactly what I'd like to see for an "Experience" system. It might not be totally realistic as people DO get better at aiming over time, but the drills around the gun are much more balanced.

Edited August 3, 2012 by Deuzerre

[gr33nth1ng 6]

Ever shot a 50 cal? I haven't, but saw someone shooting one. He misplaced it and got severely wounded on the shoulder. I'd like to see you shoot that beast while crouched. Anyone below 100kg would just fall down, and to hit a target that way?

Anyway, managing, with no scope, to down a target around 800m? Pics or didn't happen. Seriously, with 5.56 NATO, making that kind of shot?

Nope never shot a 50.. and you are right it never happened. I never said I made a hit a target at 800m.. Shit I've never tried to shoot at anything past 500 without optics.. I DID say area accuracy was out to 800 meters.. Area Accuracy means your just trying to rain lead onto an AREA and get lucky. Point accuracy is 500 and yup done it with iron sites people make it all the time.

Did you even read my post?

I agreed... <-- that says agree, look ---> "Now if you mean crouched, as in "duck walking", i.e. knees bent with only your feet touching the ground, then yeah that's pretty ridiculous. I dont think the stance alone would make it impossible, the weight of a .50 is not something to scoff at.. their fucking heavy, like 40 pounds!"

So im not even sure what your point was? I mean your probably right about the shoulder injury, i dunno ive never shot one, I had a friend shoot one too but I wasn't there..

[gr33nth1ng 6]

Haha, no you can't.

Haha.. yeah.. I can.

Haters gonna hate. Given all the time in the world, knowledge of the sights, a comfortable and stable firing position, anyone with half a brain would be able to shoot that well. Who are you to say that this man isn't former military, LEO, sport shooter, or just plain avid fan of firearms?

Thanks..

Maybe. I'm not that good a shot, and I'm ex-footsoldier. You can't expect tired and badly fed people to just shoot like some people do with perfect conditions in their favor.

Maybe your not... I have made that shot tired, and not badly fed though I was hungry. I know of no-one that has gone through any military training and wasn't tired and hungry the entire time? I qualified expert with the m16, m4, 92FS (Beretta 9mm), and lets not talk about when I qualified with the SAW.

Check this out.. http://www.marines.mil/news/publications/Documents/MCO%203574.2K.pdf

"3002. Range Requirements

1. A known distance range with the capability to fire 5.56mm ball ammunition

from 200, 300, and 500 yards is required.

2. Automated systems such as Location of Misses and Hits (LOMAH) may be

used."

Find me a Marine who wasn't tired and hungry on the day he qualified with his rifle.. and I will give you beans for dayz. Not every one can make that shot either, and if they don't qualify they get recycled and retrained. There is a saying, "if it aint raining, we aint training". The point of that is that if the conditions are ideal, we do not want to train in them.. we want to train in the most difficult coldest, wettest, tired-est, hungry-est state possible so that when the time comes we are prepared.

[rolfwar 5]

I always think that mechanics that strive to provide an authentic take on reality are better than arbitrary nerfs or removal of weapons.

Example

AS50/M107 is huge, heavy, and deadly IRL in game its simply deadly there is nothing there to simulate the drawbacks of using the weapon system that IRL keep it reserved for situational usage.

This would be best addressed via encumbrance and an authentic representation of pack/gear storage. Carrying this weapon around should make you slower, much slower. You should not be able to store it fully assembled in your pack or in a vehicle. You should not be able to enter a vehicle with the weapon equiped and you should not be able to fire it from a non set position and expect any type of accuracy due to its weight. These sub systems like inventory management and encumbrance aren't flashy like weapons/vehicles etc, but they are where you turn to provide balance not nerfs, gamey mechanics, or arbitrary removal.

There is a reason IRL that the M14 or M24/700 is used against personel targets and this could be replicated via mechancis.

I am for a skill system for the mod and I do think it should include fire arms, but I don't think it should effect your aim, that is *Your* skill and should not be affected or nerfed by a system. Skills should be point buy so you can make your character exactly what you want. Fire arm skills should again revolve around the subsystems or actions that go into using the weapon like reloading, identifying ammunition for your gun, deploying/readying your gun, recovering from jams if they were incorporated, cleaning/maintaining, repairing etc. If you give someone a weapon they will figure out how to get it off saftey, fire the weapon, and reload the weapon. They may not be *fast* and this is what can be simulated with skills, just as a lack of cartridge knowledge could be simulated, but its the players skill that decides if when the gun goes boom the target goes down.

Exactly! Anti-material rifles should be some bumbersome that only a group of 3-4 people should consider its acquisition convenient!

Back to the OP,i agree with your point no.1 and no.2 ,although i disagree with the lowering of semi-auto snipers' spawn rate.

About the point no.3 i think that the aiming system in arma is good enough,and more importantly it is capable of underlining who's a ARMA series vet,and who bought the game only for DayZ,and thus has less confidence with its guns.

[osirish 165]

Gun wear and tear wouldn't be an issue for me, as I rarely use mine. I can see it as being a potential gun-sink. I also think that having poorly maintained weapons lying on the ground or in fields wouldn't be out of place in the mod. If it had been introduced at the start of the experiment, people would have accepted it, but people are generally against change.

I don't agree with the removal of the anti-material rifles. In a mod that has helicopters and vehicles, they have a place. I don't, however, believe that we need two of them. Removing one of them wouldn't hurt the mod all that much.

The bigger issue is the sheer number of weapons in the game. But as I've mentioned in previous posts, and taken a lot of heat over them, the biggest issue is the artificial injection of weapons into the mod. Duping and hacking in of these weapons is creating a huge imbalance that affects player behaviour and play style. The game and weapon drop rates might be perfect as is ... but we'll never know until the artificial injection of weapons is removed or reduced. Ammo drop rates might also be perfect, but again, we don't know because of the glitches that refill ammo, either intentionally or accidentally.

I've made similar suggestions from this thread here.

http://dayzmod.com/forum/index.php?/topic/54577-adding-my-2cents-admins/#entry521751

[Deuzerre 64]

Nope never shot a 50.. and you are right it never happened. I never said I made a hit a target at 800m.. Shit I've never tried to shoot at anything past 500 without optics.. I DID say area accuracy was out to 800 meters.. Area Accuracy means your just trying to rain lead onto an AREA and get lucky. Point accuracy is 500 and yup done it with iron sites people make it all the time.

Did you even read my post?

I agreed... <-- that says agree, look ---> "Now if you mean crouched, as in "duck walking", i.e. knees bent with only your feet touching the ground, then yeah that's pretty ridiculous. I dont think the stance alone would make it impossible, the weight of a .50 is not something to scoff at.. their fucking heavy, like 40 pounds!"

So im not even sure what your point was? I mean your probably right about the shoulder injury, i dunno ive never shot one, I had a friend shoot one too but I wasn't there..

I read your old post carefully. Maybe it's you who should have expressed youself better? :emptycan:

I know what area accuracy is. It's just you seemed to say that it was something that's done like a piece of cake. With 5.56 rounds, 800m area shots are quite fun... Since they can't wound deeply. Anyway, back to the point. Might have been overzealous on that part. Since your post was slightly agressive to start with.

And I'm "qualified expert" as you call it with FAMAS & PAMAS if you want to compare dick lengs.

Though there is one thing you might not know the difference between, even though you have English as your mother tongue: There is a slight difference between "Hungry" and "Malnourished". Hungry is your body telling you it needs food. Malnourished means the body has had for a period of time deprivation of balanced and/or plentiful food. :beans: + :beans: + :beans: =/= :lol:

Exactly! Anti-material rifles should be some bumbersome that only a group of 3-4 people should consider its acquisition convenient!

Back to the OP,i agree with your point no.1 and no.2 ,although i disagree with the lowering of semi-auto snipers' spawn rate.

About the point no.3 i think that the aiming system in arma is good enough,and more importantly it is capable of underlining who's a ARMA series vet,and who bought the game only for DayZ,and thus has less confidence with its guns.

What about making those .50 rifles work like the AT4? I mean, they remove the backpack in order to be carried.

The Spawn rate of all semi automatics should still be inferior to the total of bolt action ones though. Right?

Fair and true enough. I disagree a bit, but I see where you are coming from. ^_^

But people are generally against change.

Lucky us, Rocket isn't the static kind of guy.

I don't agree with the removal of the anti-material rifles. In a mod that has helicopters and vehicles, they have a place. I don't, however, believe that we need two of them. Removing one of them wouldn't hurt the mod all that much.

Good enough for me. Their added spawn rate might not be "Huge" but it's still too big. Removing one (I'd vote for the M107) would be okay for me.

The bigger issue is the sheer number of weapons in the game. But as I've mentioned in previous posts, and taken a lot of heat over them, the biggest issue is the artificial injection of weapons into the mod. Duping and hacking in of these weapons is creating a huge imbalance that affects player behaviour and play style. The game and weapon drop rates might be perfect as is ... but we'll never know until the artificial injection of weapons is removed or reduced. Ammo drop rates might also be perfect, but again, we don't know because of the glitches that refill ammo, either intentionally or accidentally.

I've made similar suggestions from this thread here.

http://dayzmod.com/f...ns/#entry521751

I believe it's a half separated matter. Whenever you grab and keep a high value weapon, , and even more so in a group, the gun can eventually be counted as a +1 value. If everyone keeps the same category of weapons, while ignoring the others, whenever new loot spawns (and possibly the same gun) it's just an other +1, until "Everybody" has it but some fresh spawns (the others running to their friends). Even if the Makarov had a 50% chance of spawning everywhere, it wouldn't increase its number of owners as it's known to be rather bad, and is dumped at the first other pistol found. Better weapons though tend to just stack in numbers, and keep growing until a certain percentage of the population has them (Can't grow more except if people start to be all friendly).

I'm pretty certain that, counting content in tents and vehicles, there are more automatic weapons & sniper rifles than there are player, even if you count a player double if you put a rifle in your backpack, even if you don't include cheat and bugs.