The PvP Discussion Thread

[The Killing Joke 43]

1- Add a mark on the map that displays where bandits are.

2- Connect the humanity levels of a bandit (divided by 10 or 100 perhaps) to the mark' date=' so that you have to be within a certain range to see the mark.

3- Make "Bullets" do less damage towards players for Christs sake, head shots are understandable but 1 shot to the chest with any gun besides a makarov is ridiculous, especially sense everyone is wearing a bullet proof vest.

4- Connect positive humanity levels to various events for survivors, perhaps very slight health regeneration, a 10 to 25% maximum HP boost, or a running speed boost, something to give survivors a reason to get more humanity.

5- (Last resort) Nerf sniper rifles.[/quote']

These are all terrible, terrible ideas. I'm sorry, but it's already grossly unfair to have a bandit skin 'automagically' give away a player's side as it is.

Let me dissect your ideas.

1. and 2. If you give a mark on the map to show where bandits are, you need to give a mark to show where survivors are. It's unfair to give either side an advantage. As it is, you already have a disadvantage if you go the bandit route. You are immediately recognizable, and groups will likely not let you join.

3. Guns kill people. A LOT of rifles will go through a vest.

4. Health regeneration? Really?

5. No. Just... No.

I'm a new player, in the fact that I have seen videos on this game and LOVE the way it is laid out. Permadeath? LOVE IT. I look forward to every death I achieve, giving AND getting. Why? Because that's what would happen in real life (to a degree) if the Zombie Apocalypse ever happened! Nerfing guns, regenerating health, or giving a certain advantage to players is NOT what would happen, and (imho) shouldn't even be an option! Given my vote, I'd take away the whole 'bandit skin' as well.

Give players the opportunity to play as they would, and you'll make for a more enlightened game. Give players the chance to lie, cheat, steal and kill, and they'll do just that. Watch for a player to join a small group, clear a section of zombies, and take out their teammates quickly, and surreptitiously, and you have the making of a legend.

I also played EvE-O, and during my time there, I started Suddenly Ninjas, which is arguably the game's most famous group of Ninja Salvagers. I played as Tchell Dahhn, and in game, we changed a lot of the way the game was played for a lot of players. We would utilize completely fair game mechanics to completely overtake other players, and literally destroy their ships and steal their belongings. There were HUNDREDS of forum posts asking the mods to 'change the game' to take away our abilities, and thus, change the game mechanics to make it less PVP-centric.

They never caved. The game didn't change. And players had the opportunity to play the game as it was intended. Were people upset? Certainly. Was it unfair? NO. Everybody (EVERYBODY) has the same ability to do what we did, and this should be the same in DayZ as well.

TKJ

p.s. This is my first post, but likely, won't be my last.

[Swineflew 480]

Buff "pve" rewards and less people will play just for pvp.

[The Killing Joke 43]

Buff "pve" rewards and less people will play just for pvp.

What kind of rewards would there be? I'm sure that by buffing them, you're still also buffing the PvP players. Anything you could 'pick up' as a PvE player would be immediately accessible as a PvP player when you kill another person.

Now, perhaps we could look at DAMAGE to particular items through the PvP process. For example, if I put a round through another player, perhaps their ALICE pack is damaged and is unusable. (Damn, I wanted that.) Or else, their food rations break open and aren't salvageable. Something like that I'd be for.

TKJ

[Lordtac 1]

These are all terrible' date=' terrible ideas. I'm sorry, but it's already grossly unfair to have a bandit skin 'automagically' give away a player's side as it is.

Let me dissect your ideas.

1. and 2. If you give a mark on the map to show where bandits are, you need to give a mark to show where survivors are. It's unfair to give either side an advantage. As it is, you already have a disadvantage if you go the bandit route. You are immediately recognizable, and groups will likely not let you join.

3. Guns kill people. A LOT of rifles will go through a vest.

4. Health regeneration? Really?

5. No. Just... No.

[/quote']

First off, I've been playing for several weeks, and I've died plenty of times, but my primary cause of death is "Always" bandits, not sometimes, not most of the time, "ALWAYS".

Zombies aren't even a real issue because of how bad the bandit problem is right now.

Besides that, did you even read my hole post?

1&2 only occurs if your within a certain range of the bandit, this system works like a policing system, if bandits insist on kill everyone, they will be tracked down eventually.

I'm aware that guns kill people, but in a game where you can lose everything due to 1 shot from some jerk barely within sight distance even if it hits you in the pinky toe, I don't see how that wouldn't get very old very very quickly for a lot of people.

the kind of health regeneration I am suggesting is very very minimal, something like 100hp over the course of a real life hour, i only suggested boosted HP because survivors generally are non-pvp players that are more likely to hesitate when they see other players instead of shooting on sight.

I do not agree with nerfing sniper rifles, but it would only be a last resort, I wholeheartedly believe that "SOMETHING" must be done to level the playing field.

It just doesn't seem fair to be able to acquire a week or even 2 weeks worth of supplies from a player (Alice pack, M16a2+GL, couple clips of stanag, grenades, even vehicles and nvg's) from one lucky head shot.

I understand that your new, so you haven't endured the sting of logging in somewhere you thought was perfectly safe (in the woods far from any cities even) and then immediately having your head blown off, because a bandit just happened to be passing through and saw you with the NVG's he stole off of someone elses corpse.

[Swineflew 480]

Buff "pve" rewards and less people will play just for pvp.

What kind of rewards would there be? I'm sure that by buffing them' date=' you're still also buffing the PvP players. Anything you could 'pick up' as a PvE player would be immediately accessible as a PvP player when you kill another person.

Now, perhaps we could look at DAMAGE to particular items through the PvP process. For example, if I put a round through another player, perhaps their ALICE pack is damaged and is unusable. (Damn, I wanted that.) Or else, their food rations break open and aren't salvageable. Something like that I'd be for.

TKJ

[/quote']

I was thinking more along the lines of survival skills or "leveling up" being promoted, things like that, stuff that can't be looted, only earned by staying alive.

I'm also not against damaged equipment. Eve used that for its pvp so it's an established mechanic.

[grounddog 12]

I was thinking more along the lines of survival skills or "leveling up" being promoted' date=' things like that, stuff that can't be looted, only earned by staying alive.

I'm also not against damaged equipment. Eve used that for its pvp so it's an established mechanic.

[/quote']

And what will this be then? Damn Call of Duty? A game where you have to whore around killing just zombies and then get awesome gear. Then go killing other players.

Your point is very stupid in majority.

No offence.

Although there yes should be some kind of maybe damaged loot system. Or atleast for the weapons. That they degrade after time. Makes going looting also more needed that noone would just stack up on needed things and then camp out somewhere to kill others.

Or well, this isnt a easy thing to do. I must say this is right now perfectly done to be honest. Why change something that isnt broken?

We need PvP. That is a main part of the mod or well, zombie survival in general. And making restriction, rules, rewards, etc and more bullcrap

That all will break it, the mod will have no reason.

In conclusion, nothing should be changed considering the PvP and PvE right now.

Just saying.

[Lady Kyrah 1110]

survivors are generally not rewarded for their acts of kindness or are in fact punished for helping other players' date=' bandits are generously rewarded for their acts of psychotic man-slaughter with very few or even no drawbacks at all.

[/quote']

Why should acts of kindness be rewarded? this isn't christian education 101 and the mod depict a post apocalyptic universe where law and order is no more and has no vocation in teaching western moral or values.

The only thing the game should reward players for is their will to stay alive by any means necessary.

And lets not forget that having high humanity as a survivor doesn't really have any pro's at all. Sure you can kill 1 guy that has less humanity without being turned' date=' what about 3? or 4?

[/quote']

Why would a pacifist be rewarded in a dog eat dog world?

To help combat the gross amount of bandits per server and survivor genocides that occur every single day' date=' I would recommend the following.

[/quote']

And i recommend that you move away from the coasts!

1- Add a mark on the map that displays where bandits are.

So your solution to PVP abuses is to make the PVPer's life miserable?

2- Connect the humanity levels of a bandit (divided by 10 or 100 perhaps) to the mark' date=' so that you have to be within a certain range to see the mark.

3- Make "Bullets" do less damage towards players for Christs sake, head shots are understandable but 1 shot to the chest with any gun besides a makarov is ridiculous, especially sense everyone is wearing a bullet proof vest.

[/quote']

Welcome to the arma serie, one bullet is all it takes.

And bulletproof vests only protect against small arms fire, makarovs basically.

4- Connect positive humanity levels to various events for survivors' date=' perhaps very slight health regeneration, a 10 to 25% maximum HP boost, or a running speed boost, something to give survivors a reason to get more humanity.

[/quote']

Oh totally how about free cans of beans for those kind souls, after all they are going to need some free handout if they can't push themselve to take their (ingame) destiny in their own hands.

5- (Last resort) Nerf sniper rifles.

Have you ever used one in arma? you do know that the bullets take a while to land on target and that they drop on distance yes?

Why where you standing still in the middle of the road anyway?

The mod's beauty is to remain neutral in how players engage with eachothers, the game doesn't enforce any behavior, it's the players of a server that will shape what is acceptable and what is not, by their own actions.

1. the bandit "flag" has no reason to exist in the first place it was a poorly thought idea and even rocket want to get rid of it because from a modding standpoint it's giving him trouble.

[The Killing Joke 43]

First off' date=' I've been playing for several weeks, and I've died plenty of times, but my primary cause of death is "Always" bandits, not sometimes, not most of the time, "ALWAYS".

Zombies aren't even a real issue because of how bad the bandit problem is right now.[/quote']

I would argue that this is as it should be. PvP does not guarantee a 'good time had by all' in every instance. BUT, I'll give you this caveat. You CAN turn the tables! (!!!) Consider how proud you, yourself, could feel taking out someone who you know is a bandit. Sure, you can disagree, and say that this isn't the reason you want to play, but this is the way the game is.

It's survival of the fittest, for as short a time as it is.

Besides that' date=' did you even read my hole post?

1&2 only occurs if your within a certain range of the bandit, this system works like a policing system, if bandits insist on kill everyone, they will be tracked down eventually.[/quote']

I did read your entire post, and am only challenging that which isn't viable, in my opinion. There should NOT (not now, not ever) be some 'alarm' which gives anyone any indication of a bandit. (No matter how EVIL they may be!) If you want to be aware of them, listen. If they move, you may hear them. If you're entering a city, be wary. Take cover. Take the long way.

As Major General James Mattis said in Desert Storm, "Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet."

It just doesn't seem fair to be able to acquire a week or even 2 weeks worth of supplies from a player (Alice pack' date=' M16a2+GL, couple clips of stanag, grenades, even vehicles and nvg's) from one lucky head shot.[/quote']

Very true, but that is the nature of the game, I would say. Sure, it hurts. Sure, it sucks. But it definitely fair. Why? Because you can do it too, just as easily as anyone else.

I understand that your new' date=' so you haven't endured the sting of logging in somewhere you thought was perfectly safe (in the woods far from any cities even) and then immediately having your head blown off, because a bandit just happened to be passing through and saw you with the NVG's he stole off of someone elses corpse.[/quote']

Very true, but this isn't my first kick at the can. I played EvE for over 6 years, and during that time, I lost ALL of my stuff numerous times. The enjoyment is not from amassing a large cache all the time, I can assure you. From what I've gleaned in reading over the past few days, and watching videos, if that's what you're looking for, this game is not for you.

This is harsh almost-reality game. Where men are men, and women are also men. I hope you, and others like you, can learn to enjoy it. (...'cause men like me need more targets.)

;)

TKJ

[Lady Kyrah 1110]

The bandit mechanic is stupid:

You will kill a bandit because revenge feel good and he's gonna take for the last guy that killed you, because they are clearly identifiable and because there is no penality.

The bandit will kill you on sight because he know otherwise you will probably off him.

If anything it's increasing frictions.

[The Killing Joke 43]

The bandit mechanic is stupid:

You left out 'in my opinion'. I'm sure there are other players who think it's fine.

You will kill a bandit because revenge feel good and he's gonna take for the last guy that killed you' date=' because they are clearly identifiable and because there is no penality.[/quote']

You are right here. They should be no more identifiable than any other player, and we should reverse the whole 'different skin' angle.

The bandit will kill you on sight because he know otherwise you will probably off him. If anything it's increasing frictions.

There is no problem, I repeat NO PROBLEM, with friction. PvP exists, and it's a dog-eat-dog world out there.

TKJ

[pendergraft 1]

Gathering stuff is arguably the game's primary goal. It's what drives your character to different places across the map and puts you in conflict with others. If you're not losing your stuff on a semi-regular basis, you might as well be playing an interactive nature documentary. I suspect most of the complaints arise from a kind of MMORPG hangup, as evidenced by the prevalent use of MMOG terms like "player versus player" and "player killing." While these specific examples are apt for a game that has AI opponents in addition to human-controlled opponents, the problem comes up when you find yourself attached to your character in the same way you'd attach yourself to a standard MMOG character.

A little perspective is in order. It doesn't take very long at all to outfit a character, and your fancy machine gun that you hoofed all over Chernarus for isn't going to be of much use to you if someone sneaks up from behind and pops you in the brainpan with a Makarov -- and that's exactly what's wonderful about this mod. You could be shot by a day 1 new player and lose your month-old grizzled die-hard armed-to-the-teeth bearded crazy man survivalist character in a heartbeat. That's FANTASTIC. You're not mashing your number keys hoping your level and gear advantage carries you through.

Unlootable rewards? No way. Getting your stuff is the meat of the gameplay. Keeping your stuff is the end game. And thankfully it doesn't last forever, otherwise you'd be bored out of your mind. This mod lends itself to exciting but brief anecdotes; you will not disconnect without at least one story to tell -- think about why that is, and then think about how many exciting stories you can regale us with from your WoW days.

[Lady Kyrah 1110]

What i mean is that the bandit mechanic confort the "i hate pvp" crowd that killing other players is wrong and should be punished.

Frictions are all good but i rather see them over valid points rather than turning it into a mockery of a good vs evil crusade. In this world, society is GONE. there is no good or evil, there is being alive, and being dead.

I agree with you obscene, for this game play very much like a roguelike (dungeon of dredmor for example) where a character is only alive for a few hours, and for as long as i can prevent myself from being reckless or until my luck leave me.

Every character will die, without exception, the real fun is what led you to your grave.

And i will join a little comic that comes from "dwarf fortress"

"Losing is fun."

http://dwarffortresswiki.org/images/4/40/FunComic.png

http://twistedspeedo.com/comics/2011-05-28-LosingIsFun.jpg

[Swineflew 480]

I don't understand, people who play this game to kill others are told "GO BACK TO COD DEATHMATCH" but if we give a suggestion to encourage group play we get told "GO BACK TO COD". The only acceptable way to play this game is to roam around in the forest for 20 minutes then run into a city to loot stuff then wonder in the forest for another 20 minutes.

I think a big flaw of this community is they're so quick to act all high and mighty compared to people who play standard FPS games, they don't care about the game evolving or growing into anything. There is a reason this game is in Alpha and not a finished product.

I feel like there is NO reason to do anything except run around and PVP. Do I care about getting a car or chopper or a vehicle? No.

So what's the point of forming up a group and getting loot? I can do that by myself.

At this point let's just call this game what it is. PVP Survival.

[The Killing Joke 43]

In this world' date=' society is GONE. there is no good or evil, there is being alive, and being dead.[/quote']

This. This right here, is a very, very smart quote.

At this point let's just call this game what it is. PVP Survival.

Regardless of the gameplay mechanics, this man has it right. PvP survival of the fittest, my friend.

TKJ

[Paris (DayZ) 0]

I have all the best gear anyway and nothing to do with it so of course i'm going to PVP until the time that this mod evolves and gives me something else to do.

[F.T.L. 0]

Now i can't kill bandits because they go around with 2-3 survivors - If i shoot a survivor i lost humanity! This is impossible. I have a solution:

If you (survivor) stay near a bandit for 5 min. your skin will change as a bandit.

Really, this is impossible, i can't defend myself.

[pendelum5 0]

The only acceptable way to play this game is to roam around in the forest for 20 minutes then run into a city to loot stuff then wonder in the forest for another 20 minutes.

I feel like there is NO reason to do anything except run around and PVP. Do I care about getting a car or chopper or a vehicle? No.

So what's the point of forming up a group and getting loot? I can do that by myself.

At this point let's just call this game what it is. PVP Survival.

Believe it or not, some of us actually enjoy coordinating and salvaging vehicles. More often than not, we will have a mixed-race group of survivors and bandits. I maintain about 3000 humanity and only kill in self defense.

This has been said many times before, but PVP is essential for a game like Day Z. The current bandit system is fair and does not give an advantage to players who prefer to PK nor to players who refrain. However, because survivor friendly fire is not an option, anybody can still be betrayed by an innocent appearance. That, and the fact that player names can appear on the HUD from kilometers away makes for a frustrating camouflage metagame. Even on veteran servers, it is very difficult without the use of positional communication to identify who is part of your group once it becomes 6-7 men large.

I understand that people buying CO for this game expect something more stimulating than 15-minute runs, but that is precisely what makes vehicles so much more exciting to develop.

[Zero477 5]

I must admit I started by playing DayZ as a "COD kiddie". When I started playing the amount of new players was staggering, I didn't know much about humanity or bandits. With the shitty gear I had I tried cooperating, three times in a row I got killed for it. It was noobcoast central. Then finally I got a kill of my own, somebody opened fire but I won the shootout. I proudly took his beans and makarov ammo. I found out that Elektro had great loot and guns, I also found out that being there and trying to do anything cooperatively ends up in death. Thus began my spree of rushing to the loot, the more loot I found the more itchy my triggerfinger, I didn't want to lose it all.

Now I'm a bandit and everywhere I go I get shot on sight. If I don't kill on sight or avoid players altogether I'm taking a huge risk, I don't want to kill on sight outside of towns. I don't want to be forced in this soloist playstyle. My humanity is at -30000, extremely hard to get rid of. I recall a journey I made from Cherno to Elektro, twice in a row survivors opened fire on me, twice in a row I killed them despite wanting no trouble. That alone dropped my humanity by 5k. The bandit system is a slippery slope and kind of unforgiving.

I have a suggestion to improve it. Give players the choice to disguise their identity by changing into the bandit skin (or just the headwrap). Killing a bandit grants humanity but a bandit does not get a humanity penalty for killing survivors or a humanity bonus for killing other bandits. However, if you kill a survivor while you don't have the bandit disguise on you lose humanity. Low humanity makes your normal undisguised face look like the "zombie 2" face. As a result there can be more trust under survivors and it's easier to play the role of bandit (which is needed to keep the tension on for everyone) without getting punished for it by losing trust. If you play like a spineless wimp and abuse people their trust you will be marked for it.

[The Killing Joke 43]

If you play like a spineless wimp and abuse people their trust you will be marked for it.

Why is this a problem? You shouldn't be force to sit at the back of the bus just because of the way you look.

TKJ

[Zero477 5]

If you play like a spineless wimp and abuse people their trust you will be marked for it.

Why is this a problem? You shouldn't be force to sit at the back of the bus just because of the way you look.

TKJ

You should if you go up to people pretending to be friendly and shoot them in the face from close range, even if it's only until you gain back humanity.

[hexik 1]

The current system is pretty much just a team based deathmatch with zombie obstacles. I'm a bandit and I have zero incentive to go back to being a survivor because I can just freely kill anyone now and get good gear easily, and even when you are a survivor chances are other survivors are going to kill you anyway because everyone plays as a bandit now. There needs to be a change.

[captslate 2]

I WILL FREELY ADMIT THAT I DIDN'T READ PAGES 10-30!

But, I think that the sentiment has been echoed well, at this point, with the removal of offline eating and drinking, I have little incentive to really even forage anymore, and now it's very much just a PvP game with zombies added.

Case in point, when I get killed these days, I spawn in, drop my pack, drop all my painkillers and morphine, eat my beans, and throw away my water bottle. I'm harder to spot, and since it's just a PvP game, I use my macky to get the things I need.

At this point, just add a full respawn feature and get it over with.

[Lady Kyrah 1110]

If you play like a spineless wimp and abuse people their trust you will be marked for it.

Why is this a problem? You shouldn't be force to sit at the back of the bus just because of the way you look.

TKJ

You should if you go up to people pretending to be friendly and shoot them in the face from close range' date=' even if it's only until you gain back humanity.

[/quote']

Can you explain why? Why should the game discourage betrayal? Because the society we grew in say that honestly should be rewarded?

It makes trust all the more important if it's hard to gain and easy to lose.

[oilman 72]

The only issue is that it's very hard to spread word of mouth across so many servers. While you may become well known as a bandit on one server, with or without your costume, on another server, no-one may know who you are.

But there are other issues tied to server hopping, and this is one of the minor ones.

[Zero477 5]

Can you explain why? Why should the game discourage betrayal? Because the society we grew in say that honestly should be rewarded?

It makes trust all the more important if it's hard to gain and easy to lose.

Betrayal is an act which weight can not be simulated in an online game. Betrayal is easy, brings great profit and does not carry a consequence. By bringing in a consequence that matches the act you bring more resemblance to a realistic society. In my suggestion making a habit of betraying people would make you a social outcast. The disadvantage you get from making the morally wrong choice reflects the gravity of your choice and gives it more weight.

Realistically trust between survivors would be a given. That bond of trust gets tested when there's loot involved.