Incentivizing Behavior

[klar 3]

The sandbox nature of this game is really fantastic, very few games give the player almost total choice in how they want to approach the game. The real juice is meeting someone and trying to figure out if you want to trust them or not. However, maybe this is because of the big influx in popularity, but at first people were more inclined to ask if friendly or not, either in chat or with voice chat. But over the past week, it's seems like a lot of people are playing this like death match, shoot first and without warning. If this mod devolves into death match with zombies, that would be a bummer. There are plenty of games like that.

With the news that bandit skins are being done away with, what incentives are there for people to be cooperative? At least with the skin you have a clue as to someone's play style, after the change it just invites more mistrust and solo play to avoid other people.

Shouldn't there be an incentive to want to work with strangers, instead of almost rewarding people for shooting first without provocation? At this point there is a high reward factor for playing a bandit style, while trying to play as a survivor has high risk and low reward, other than your personal satisfaction and enjoyment. Going forward, shouldn't the mod lean more towards rewarding survivors? Otherwise if the mechanics provide high reward for a bandit style, it will devolve into death match and the idea of playing friendly will be non existent.

[deadbolt (DayZ) 10]

The sandbox nature of this game is really fantastic' date=' very few games give the player almost total choice in how they want to approach the game. The real juice is meeting someone and trying to figure out if you want to trust them or not. However, maybe this is because of the big influx in popularity, but at first people were more inclined to ask if friendly or not, either in chat or with voice chat. But over the past week, it's seems like a lot of people are playing this like death match, shoot first and without warning. If this mod devolves into death match with zombies, that would be a bummer. There are plenty of games like that.

With the news that bandit skins are being done away with, what incentives are there for people to be cooperative? At least with the skin you have a clue as to someone's play style, after the change it just invites more mistrust and solo play to avoid other people.

Shouldn't there be an incentive to want to work with strangers, instead of almost rewarding people for shooting first without provocation? At this point there is a high reward factor for playing a bandit style, while trying to play as a survivor has high risk and low reward, other than your personal satisfaction and enjoyment. Going forward, shouldn't the mod lean more towards rewarding survivors? Otherwise if the mechanics provide high reward for a bandit style, it will devolve into death match and the idea of playing friendly will be non existent.

[/quote']

there are incentive's to working together, do you want me to list them?

[klar 3]

Sure, there are reasons to work together. Personally I dig that feeling of getting into the game and seeing someone, being nervous about approaching them, etc. Maybe it was just the weekend play, but it seemed like a lot of people were playing completely death match style. The point is, what's really there to prevent that? As I said, there is high reward for playing aggressively and it's instant gratification, I killed that guy and took his quality gun. Personally I get satisfaction out of playing survivor style and there are benefits. But from a mechanics perspective, if playing as a survivor doesn't have good rewards, things devolve into death match.

[Jamesbiff 4]

The sandbox nature of this game is really fantastic' date=' very few games give the player almost total choice in how they want to approach the game. The real juice is meeting someone and trying to figure out if you want to trust them or not. However, maybe this is because of the big influx in popularity, but at first people were more inclined to ask if friendly or not, either in chat or with voice chat. But over the past week, it's seems like a lot of people are playing this like death match, shoot first and without warning. If this mod devolves into death match with zombies, that would be a bummer. There are plenty of games like that.

With the news that bandit skins are being done away with, what incentives are there for people to be cooperative? At least with the skin you have a clue as to someone's play style, after the change it just invites more mistrust and solo play to avoid other people.

Shouldn't there be an incentive to want to work with strangers, instead of almost rewarding people for shooting first without provocation? At this point there is a high reward factor for playing a bandit style, while trying to play as a survivor has high risk and low reward, other than your personal satisfaction and enjoyment. Going forward, shouldn't the mod lean more towards rewarding survivors? Otherwise if the mechanics provide high reward for a bandit style, it will devolve into death match and the idea of playing friendly will be non existent.

[/quote']

What you need to be careful of, because of the nature of the game, is not rewarding any specific style of gameplay.

The mod ISNT designed so people work together, thats just a play style that arises, same as banditry. The moment you take a step towards introducing incentives based on play style, thats when you start to kill off other play styles. The perceived bonuses of being a bandit are the same as the perceived bonuses of being a survivor, once youre on one side of the fence, the other side tends to look greener.

Introduce rewards for doing things by all means, but any step towards punishing/rewarding people based on how they play will out right kill the mod.

[Raygin 1]

Working together means you live longer and eventually find good loots for yourself and your conrades. The influx of new bandits will eventually subside as people realise that their deathmatch cravings cannot be filled in Dayz, or they eventually find that working together is a better option then having a cycle of death and rebirth.

My suggestion is to not only have a leaderboard of good player killers, but also those that live to help others. Giving weapons, food, helping others in their time of need and whatnot. That way people are encouraged to be good by the promise of fame, which alot of people cannot resist.

[deadbolt (DayZ) 10]

Sure' date=' there are reasons to work together. Personally I dig that feeling of getting into the game and seeing someone, being nervous about approaching them, etc. Maybe it was just the weekend play, but it seemed like a lot of people were playing completely death match style. The point is, what's really there to prevent that? As I said, there is high reward for playing aggressively and it's instant gratification, I killed that guy and took his quality gun. Personally I get satisfaction out of playing survivor style and there are benefits. But from a mechanics perspective, if playing as a survivor doesn't have good rewards, things devolve into death match.

[/quote']

there shouldnt be anything to prevent people playing "death match style"

[slappyham 1]

As a someone that plays solely as a bandit.

Can I just say it is much more difficult playing as one. Everyone shoots on sight no matter what, as a survivor this didn't happen at all.

I personally like the challenge and much prefer the game as a bandit, so much more intense..

I just wish people would stop making out like being a bandit is some easy ride, because it's not

[DaPessimist 1]

I would like to see new Titles/Nametags open up for players to choose from. No physical awards, just the ability to display the type of player you are to others.

For example, if I've killed 100 Zeds and murdered nobody, maybe I get the title "Hero" or something like that to place next to my name. Or if I bandage/transfusion 10 players I get the option to use the title "Medic" next to my name. Or if I manage to survive for 30 hours gametime, I can use the title "Survivor" by my name (I know it's already a title, but you get the picture).

[klar 3]

I understand the points about preventing a certain style of play, or that people can play how they want. But certainly there are rewards for playing a certain style, and that is controlled by mechanics of the mod. There's a reason that your skin becomes different when you kill X number of people, it means that people will know not to trust you on sight. Maybe you will anyway, but clearly that is there to provide a risk/benefit for that style of play. if you remove that, I just think it will move even further away from people wanting to trust each other.

ray might be right and the abundance of banditry will normalize over time.

[Raygin 1]

But of course. The influx of new players has been caused by the massive publicity that the mod is getting, and people expect to just run and gun, rather than sneak and survive.

[klar 3]

Also, the reason I mention the death match style of play, that has been done a million times over. Why did this mod blow up so much? Because it offers the chance to play a game with weapons but not automatically kill everyone you see. It offers you an interesting choice you can't get other places. It just seems like removing the bandit skin means people can more easily make the choice to kill everyone on sight and will not encourage people to want to try and work with strangers.

Also, this is not in anyway suggesting one way is better than the other. I'm looking at it from the mechanics of what allows for an even playing field that neither encourages or discourages either style. It just feels like it already leans towards the easier choice being shoot first ask later, and remove the bandit skin pushes it further in that direction.

[thomas.bowyer@hotmail.co.uk 25]

Whilst I see your point, a few things spring to mind, one is, people need to stop talking about 'new players' as if any of us are old school.. its a new game. in alpha no less..

but yes, the 'new players' do lead to more pking. it will peter out as they get their come uppance!

there IS a small temp reward for shooting on sight as you say.. possible gear/survival bits. the downside at the moment is, bandit skin. it lets everybody know.. that you are THAT guy. ( Im aware that thats not always the case, but hell, I drop bandits. nuff said) its a huge mark on your head for anybody silly enough to trust you.

after 1.5.8.. I really dont know. I tend to live and let live, but If there is absolutely no repurcussion (well, visible) for shooting people, I might be far more inclined to kill other survivors.

[klar 3]

You're correct, I'm new just like everyone else, not trying to create divides. Just meant over the past week vs the weekend, there seemed to a surge in people coming in and playing it like a shooter.

The final point you made is what I'm getting at. Removing the skin takes away the one thing (visual stigma) that might make someone hesitate from killing everyone on sight. I mean sure, people can play the game any way they want. But if it becomes the norm to shoot on sight and trusting people means letting someone get close enough to pop you and take your stuff, I think a lot of what makes this mod really interesting will be lost.

[joegti10 2]

Bandits will subside as people get killed off and as time goes on. Its a big time investment to be a solid bandit. Unless you dont mind just running around cherno or whatever with a makarov, get some kills, die and repeat.

[Katana67 2907]

There needs to be some more activities to do, those will act as incentives for people to vary gameplay.

I think things like hunting (needs to be fleshed out), fishing, ability to make a garden next to a tent, make slightly more advanced settlements, and shelter need to be implemented.

Shelter would be a big thing, would encourage people to fortify buildings in order to hunker down and spend the night or whatever.

[BlackAlpha 12]

there are incentive's to working together' date=' do you want me to list them?

[/quote']

Can you tell us what the incentive is for working together with strangers? In other words, why should we bother working together with people we do not know?

It seems to me that strangers, more often than not, will try to shoot you or try to stab you in the back.

Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not a bandit, not technically. The community I play with is generally friendly. Why we are friendly, I do not really know, we simply are. But lately I've been wondering why we even bother being friendly, and why we don't simply shoot on sight.

In the North, most encounters with other players are very hostile. Up there, you'll find everything from lone bandit snipers to groups who systematically lock down an entire area, ie. shoot everything on sight in a controlled manner. And note that these are not new guys you meet up there in the North. Most of the people you meet there are veterans who've played this mod for quite some time and have gotten access to pretty good gear.

By the way, the killing gets especially bad when you start wearing high grade military gear or when you enter some hot spots, like NWA, Stary Sobor or Berezino, because then people almost always try to take you out. And what for?

I think it's clear that people enjoy killing other people for better loot and simply because it's enjoyable to kill others. Besides, you'd be a fool not to shoot first when you know there's a high chance that other guy is already lining up his sniper scope.

On the other hand, what incentive is there not to shoot strangers on sight? People keep mentioning that you can play this game in any way you want to, but is that really true? It feels like we are being forced down a specific path. Looking at how the mod started and where it is now, I don't see how it won't turn into a mindless team deathmatch with some zombies thrown in to spice things up.

Just imagine playing a regular PvP game, like ArmA2 TvT or COD or whatever. What incentive is there to cooperate with your enemies? Why do people kill each other? The answers to those questions can be summed up by saying it's a lot more fun to kill people than not to kill people. The same can be said about this mod.

So basically, the problem this mod has is that it's not fun enough not to kill people. And that's why more and more people shoot first and ask questions later.

[hishnik 23]

At this point, i think one could use Arma and its mods to write a doctorate paper on human psychology. Having played Life mod, and now playing DayZ constantly, it just reaffirms my belief.

Everyone constantly feels oppressed, cops and civilians, survivors and bandits. Hell, i think if we could ask zombies for their opinion they'd tell you they feel very oppressed and unsafe.

Folks, i very much agree with Rockets position on this, he makes the mod, you make whatever you want out of it.

Remember, it's you + another 49 people like you. And some of us (for instance me) have been burned before asking people whether they're friendly, just to have them shoot me later. So now i find myself trying to avoid other players, and if i'm unable to do so, i will take the first shot, i value my 'life' more than theirs. And in process of such thinking, it's entirely possible that will act as the major event in the other persons game experience to make them feel same way.

Dont view it as DM, view it as survival of the fittest. Unless you're absolutely certain you will not get killed, do you really want to take chances?

I play with a group of, oh about 10 players at its max peak time, and we constantly check whether it's one of ours doing some action. Because none of us want to die, and yes, even if its two or three of us playing, we will corner and kill someone, just to avoid them doing same to us. You cant use 'skin' as determining factor in your decision to kill or let go. For all you know, its a murderer who has not killed anyone in a while and became survivor... Or maybe he just got killed, and made it to your location, and looking for weapons and beans. I saw groups of people get wiped by someone gaining trust and opening up in their backs with assault rifle they gave him.

On the flip side, just few days ago, our group was joined by a guy we actually killed. Lured in, tricked into believing we wont shoot, and killed him. (Yes, i associate myself with THOSE people). He didnt take it close to heart, yes, he was upset about loosing items and time, but in return he gained few acquaintances with whom he is now able to enjoy the game.

[BlackAlpha 12]

At this point' date=' i think one could use Arma and its mods to write a doctorate paper on human psychology.

[/quote']

There's a small problem with that. In real life, most people are not sadistic sociopaths. People behave much differently ingame than in real life.

[deadbolt (DayZ) 10]

At this point' date=' i think one could use Arma and its mods to write a doctorate paper on human psychology.

[/quote']

There's a small problem with that. In real life, most people are not sadistic sociopaths. People behave much differently ingame than in real life.

depends which part of the world

[jonryan32@gmail.com 2]

Well first as to the conversation that has started to pop up. As an unwilling bandit the bandit skin is a curse. I got my skin in self defense, then you keep it because everyone shoots on sight.

I help people all the time. I've welcomed survivors into my looting groups several times. I've saved bandits and survivors alike from hordes of zombies. I've offered to help transfuse people that need it.

You know what I get for my trouble 9 times out of 10? A bullet in my head because of the skin I have on. I've found more friendly bandits then survivors ever since I switched sides so to speak. The people who shoot bandits on sight are worse then the bandits themselves in most cases.

As to the original point of the topic. The entire point of the mod is not to add incentive behavior, but give us a world and the options and see what happens. Doing so goes completely against rockets goal and vision of the project. Part of why he's removing bandit skins. It's simply not working with what he wants. Also kind of buggy.

[Zero477 5]

Playing like a Survivor is incentivised by the bandit skin system, this is a given. If Rocket were to do away with this system there would indeed be nothing holding people back from playing DayZ like a team deathmatch or even worse betraying other people for their gear. When someone is wearing a bandit skin it should be clear that they're out to get you. This is not a problem, they make the game more exciting for everyone.

The problem is that surviving isn't incentivised and that a bandit is forced into the bandit playstyle of shoot on sight or get shot on sight.

[hishnik 23]

At this point' date=' i think one could use Arma and its mods to write a doctorate paper on human psychology.

[/quote']

There's a small problem with that. In real life, most people are not sadistic sociopaths. People behave much differently ingame than in real life.

Lol, i guess you wouldnt be writing that paper. That isnt the underlying reason behind the killing sprees. Only a small percentage of people kill because they can/want to. Majority of bandits become such as part of self defense, come aroudn the corner to ask if friendly or not, and have fire opened up on you.. You end up being a better/luckier shot, and you're a bandit now.

The underlying reason is lack of trust. People dont trust each other, and for variety of reasons, whether its 'you will take my good loot' or 'you can kill me if you need beans'. Look at the looting procedures, half the time people stop being cautious just because loot is around... Thats all i was saying...

And life was def a good example of what happens when you empower someone :)

[friendly_noob 0]

there are incentive's to working together' date=' do you want me to list them?

[/quote']

....=what incentive is there not to shoot strangers on sight? People keep mentioning that you can play this game in any way you want to, but is that really true? It feels like we are being forced down a specific path. Looking at how the mod started and where it is now, I don't see how it won't turn into a mindless team deathmatch with some zombies thrown in to spice things up.

...

So basically, the problem this mod has is that it's not fun enough not to kill people. And that's why more and more people shoot first and ask questions later.

Dude excellent post, couldn`t agree more. And, sadly, it feels more and more people have the kill everything that moves mindset - everything except zombies that is. What get me to try this mod was seeing a bunch of people on Youtube having fun chasing and being chased by zombies and having a great time. What I see in reality is COD game style and a `don`t trust anyone` and `shoot first, ask questions later` mentality. If we take away the social aspect of teaming up with other survivors we lose a HUGE chunk of what makes this game fun in the first place. We could just as well play Arma2 without the dayz mod.

[WalkerDown (DayZ) 296]

Exact, this mod is born with no real purpose of being played as a traditional game (rocket admitted it), he said it's more an "experiment".

We didn't accounted the casual players (that actually are the majority), those players must be "incentivate" to follow certain game schemes, otherwise they wouldn't invest hourse to understand the mechanics, to deploy a plan, to socialize, they only want to have some fun, and it means being in the action immediatly, and it translates into shooting at other players, that's sadly exactly he opposite of a natural zombie apocalipse mood, that (apart some rare thrilling moments) should be concentrate on the "patience" more than the action.

Do you really believe that a 12-14yo player (im just talking about the average gamer) would have this patience? I remember when i was so young.. my sole fun were the action not the strategy.

Unfortuntely this ruin the game.. i'm not saying that there's a "correct" way to play this mod, but there's an "ideal" way.. otherwise it would be no different than tenth of other shooters. DayZ should be distinctive, not one like many others.

[Kriegson 1]

Rather simple, I've posted this elsewhere.

Humanity effects your respawn. Based on your humanity, you are set into a bracket and given different starting gear and spawns.

The lower your humanity, the better primary weapon you spawn with, and more ammunition, but less survival supplies and the further in the wilderness or deeper in towns you will spawn.

With powerful guns and a need to hunt immediately, bandits (of varying degrees) are rewarded with playing in a predatory manner by further specializing upon spawn as a predator. They must compete with zeds and other predators to survive, or hunt for humane types.

High humanity spawns will be closer together, along with high humanity players spawning with slightly better secondary weapons, but less ammunition. They do however have ample survival supplies.

Being clustered together with little ammunition, but ample supplies, humane survivors are encouraged organically to work together. Survivor groups will also fare better against predatory bandits.

And thus cooperative players and competitive players alike receive incentive to play as they prefer.