Is this really Survival-Horror?

[E M P 10]

I contend that as a survival game [mod], DayZ is, at present, weak, and that as a horror game it is weaker.

Why do I feel this way, and why does it matter?

First, the latter: It matters only if this game is meant to be a survival-horror mmo. If it is and fails to include strong survival and horror elements, then the false-billing may upset players (as I believe it already has) who come into with the expectation that it will feature such elements. As this is just an alpha mod at this time, their upset is not of great concern. When the full game emerges, however, it may well be important.

If the game is not meant to be a survival-horror mmo, but rather the present fps mmo with scattered survival and horror elements, you may disregard the following, although I would encourage a rebilling of the game to emphasize the real core gameplay.

Now, why do I feel the game to be weak in the areas it bills as core to its gameplay?

Let's look first at survival:

Our characters begin the game with next-to-nothing, must scavenge food and drink much more frequently than is realistic in order to avoid death by starvation/dehydration, do not regenerate blood without eating or transfusions, die permanently, require warmth, etc. For all that, though, survival elements only occupy a small amount of gameplay time. The newest of new characters is perfectly capable of running into a supermarket, looting enough food, drink, and medicine to survive for several real days of gameplay, and escaping to the woods in only a few minutes. They then need to little more than infrequently raid supermarkets/kill other players to sustain themselves, and it is in fact simple to survive indefinitely in the wild with a hatchet, matches, a canteen, and a hunting knife, without facing any danger at all besides zealous bandits.

I feel, in short, that this is inadequate as a survival challenge. It's not good as a simulator or a game (in this respect).

What mechanics are causing the issue?

I think the chief problem is that we begin the game as special forces experts with extensive training in wilderness survival techniques, the use of firearms, and the use of field medicine, with ready access to seemingly-unlimited supplies of shelf-stable food and drink, ammunition, and wild game. If we were meant to begin the game as civilians, faced with the challenge of surviving a post-apocalyptic world, then the design has not been successfully implemented. No civilian without training is able to apply battle dress, hunt, and most importantly, fire a weapon, with the efficacy our characters display in this game. If a fresh character miraculously discovered a powerful sniper rifle at his spawn location, he would be able to make 600m+ headshots from a crouched position with ease. If a civilian found a sniper rifle upon landing at a beach in a strange location, he might be able to get the safety off and aim vaguely in the direction of a target, but he'd have no hope of hitting anything at 300m, let alone 600m+, and certainly not a target the size of a human head. [set aside the fact that nobody, including special forces personnel, could make such a shot while standing/crouching, and that there is never any wind in this mod.]

I am a civilian. I cannot hunt. I have fired a couple weapons in my life, but I would not describe myself as more than a novice in the use of firearms. Without a manual I would not be able to disassemble a gun for storage or cleaning. I also don't know much about medicine. If I attempted to give someone a blood transfusion, I would likely do so improperly. There is a significant risk that I would give them an infection or complication during the procedure. As a civilian, I am also not able to run 10km with 25kg of equipment on my back. I'm not out of shape, but I do not work out much, either. On the other hand, I'm pretty good at hiding in a bush, and I could probably throw an empty bottle as a distraction.

What am I getting at?

If you want to focus on survival, make us suck at everything when we spawn. We can fire a gun, but our aim is terrible. We can butcher an animal, but we do a terrible job. We can apply a bandage, but it only slows the bleeding at first. Make us get better with the basics over time, and give us the opportunity to specialize slowly. It takes practice to fire accurately, to butcher well, or to treat an injury.

I don't suggest an obtrusive levelling system. I think, instead, we need a smoothly curving level of skill that is not available for the player to check. The highest level of skill, occupying the steepest part of the curve, requires frequent use to maintain. Thus, everyone can be proficient in everything with some practice, but experts will need to specialize and practice their specialty more often to preserve it at the highest levels.

We also need less access to shelf-stable food and clean water. After the zombies have flooded the world, food stores will dwindle. Canned food will be rare. Animals will be hunted to rarity. Crops will come in thinly. For our characters, this means a greater preciousness of food. Foragers will have food to trade for ammunition. Yes, a bandit group can kill those who are willing to trade, but when food is scarce enough, food hoarders will be able to starve those who do not trade amicably. Water from ponds and wells has been contaminated, and unless boiled is not safe to drink, and soda barely slakes our thirst (beyond being rare).

Batteries, too, are in short supply, and batteries power some of our best equipment, along with our flashlights. (Flares and glowsticks are probably too common). Zombies tend to gather items together into their filthy nests...

In general, survival means overcoming scarcity of supplies and starting without a great deal of skill.

Next, what about horror?

Zombies are a staple of horror games, films, and books, but the zombies of DayZ are not very frightening at present. Yes, they do run at the speed of the player, cause injury, make creepy sounds, and walk toward gunfire. They can be frightening in certain situations, especially when the player is in the confines of a city or building at nighttime. Mostly, they are either a nuisance, silly, or a tool for bandits. Nuisance, because they stand in the way of running into a lootable location undetected. Silly, because they have goofy animations and run in hilarious fashion. A tool, because they reveal the location of a possible target in several ways.

In short, they aren't very horrifying outside some specific contexts.

What mechanics are causing this issue?

I think the biggest issue with zombies in this game is that they can't seem to decide what type of zombie they are. Mostly they wander around aimlessly like classic Romero zombies, but when a player is detected they turn into 28 Days Later rabid humans. Either way, a player can step inside a building to slow their pace, run out an alternate entrance, and enter prone position to lose the pursuer. If the player has a gun, they need only enter a building and shoot the zombies one at a time as they enter. Unless the player uses a very loud gun, it is unlikely that they will need to deal with more than 5-6 zombies at any one time, and even the largest horde is easily escaped by nothing more than running.

Zombies don't spawn until the player draws close, which gives away players attempting to sneak about, but zombies have extremely poor detection abilities, and players may hide in their vicinity, enabling snipers to ignore nearby zombies until after they have fired.

Further, zombies are nearly always encountered out in the open, where they are least threatening, and even the deepest recesses of a building are mere seconds from the out-of-doors, which makes the threat of being trapped nonexistent.

What am I getting at?

I think zombies, and the way players encounter or interact with them, need significant adjustments, if horror is to be a bigger part of this game. Fast zombies, with few exceptions, are terrible. Encountering zombies in the open is not particularly frightening, and makes escaping them too easy.

Firstly, I suggest remaking all the walking zombies into classic 'Romeros.' This means they only walk, they are extremely resistant to physical damage (aside from damage to the head), and they are extremely hard to lose once they know you are there. Fast zombies may be preserved as rare zombie dogs, but by-and-large ought not to exist. Certain zombies may also be 'ranked,' possessing increased health and strength, wearing armor, and/or having special abilities or attacks.

Secondly, I suggest increasing the number of zombies everywhere. Dozens of walking zombies are much scarier than 2-3 running zombies, especially when said zombies are virtually immune to non-headshot gunfire.

Thirdly, I suggest increasing the size of interior spaces, and burying valuable loot in the furthest corner of the darkest room, surrounded by 'Zeds'. The best locations that come to mind are utility tunnels and basements of industrial buildings, neither of which have natural or artificial lighting aside from that which the player brings with them. The risk must be one of getting trapped in such a location by a horde of the undead, unable to shoot a way out.

Finally, players ought not to be able to lose zombies without the use of an item designed specifically to escape. This might include audio distraction, but I think the more interesting option is for players to burst blood packs on walls or the floor. This would create a dilemma for the player seeking to escape; do I attempt to run or do I use this rare medicine? Incidentally, it would be nice if players who have developed enough medical skill could make blood packs at the cost of blood (to be replenished by food and drink).

As an important corollary, tying in with my survival comments, players really ought not to be able to run nearly as much as they are able to run at present. Even special forces personnel need rest, and few civilians can run even unencumbered for 10 minutes at the speed with which our characters run in this game. Sprinting is tiring. The risk must be that the player runs from one group of zombies into another, and is so tired that they cannot escape the second...

Final Thought:

If this game is to be about surviving a horrifying zombie apocalypse, lots of mechanics need to be adjusted, introduced, and possibly some abandoned. Thankfully, it's still an alpha. If you choose not to make changes in this direction, I would suggest changing the billing of the game. I enjoy a large fps with some survival elements, but I think that I, like many others, was attracted to this game [mod] more on the premise that it would feature a stronger survival/horror theme, rather than feature a few PvE challenges amidst a primarily PvP shooter.

Thank you for reading, and please comment whether you agree or disagree.

Edited July 21, 2012 by E M P

[FrostDMG 398]

Good post, :), though this never was meant to be a horror game mate.

Also, you must remember a too of survival aspects are yet to be added.

[01da 218]

Ace tale, chap.

[Robert_merello 2]

It is a simulator of how many times you will die to other players, name it DayB rather than DayZ, zombies are a tiny part of this game, meanwhile bandits is the major force of killing.. & that is where it fails.

[fundan@gmx.de 82]

Great thread.

[E M P 10]

Good post, :), though this never was meant to be a horror game mate.

Also, you must remember a too of survival aspects are yet to be added.

Regarding it being a horror game: I'm not under the illusion that it's just about horror. I do think that anyone choosing a realistic setting full of zombies is automatically dabbling in horror, though. I think that it's better to embrace the horror than to kill it with jerky running zombies that are easy to escape.

And yes, I know lots of aspects remain to be added. The purpose of this post is to comment on what is there already only, since that's what they want with these forums!

Thanks for the reply. :)

[MikeTupper 68]

I think its made pretty clear from the start that the character is a trained survivalist/soldier. Just judging by the kind of backpack he starts out with, having a military-type bandage and the way he vaults obstacles. After all, it would be boring to play a civie who cant do shit and is too scared to pick up a gun. As for horror, what makes a game a horror game is more often than not scripted events aimed at creating tension/surprise/atmosphere/shock. This game has no scripted events whatsoever, and it never pretended to be a survival-horror. It's more just a zombie apocalypse simulator.

[E M P 10]

It is a simulator of how many times you will die to other players, name it DayB rather than DayZ, zombies are a tiny part of this game, meanwhile bandits is the major force of killing.. & that is where it fails.

To be frank, I don't mind the game as it is in that regard. There may be some balancing issues with regard to item sinks, the power of weapons, and so on, but I happen to like a large-scale FPS idea. I would just rather play a really good survival-horror, which this bills itself as, and which this can be with some tweaks. Hurray for alphas looking little like final games much of the time!

If Rocket doesn't make the survival/horror I'm describing, someone else will. It's only a matter of time.

[Quaiden 0]

It is a simulator of how many times you will die to other players, name it DayB rather than DayZ, zombies are a tiny part of this game, meanwhile bandits is the major force of killing.. & that is where it fails.

I love how you state something as fact when all the stats coming off the servers state otherwise. Current stats show that PVP only accounts for around 20-25% of all deaths. If you are tired of dying to bandits then get better at avoiding cities that are known to be bandit over run and learn to get your gear elsewhere.

My current character is nearing the 1 week alive mark and I have only encountered 2 players. First one I heard on the other side of a wall in the house, we both yelled out on the in-game voice that we were freindlies, and went our separate ways without firing a shot. The second guy tried to sneak up on me while I was raiding a few very well stocked tents and when I fired at him he Alt+F4'd and never came back. I have been as low as 4k blook and I have not had a canned food product in 4 days. This is the end of the world, not some fair chance at a new life.

[Quaiden 0]

To be frank, I don't mind the game as it is in that regard. There may be some balancing issues with regard to item sinks, the power of weapons, and so on, but I happen to like a large-scale FPS idea. I would just rather play a really good survival-horror, which this bills itself as, and which this can be with some tweaks. Hurray for alphas looking little like final games much of the time!

If Rocket doesn't make the survival/horror I'm describing, someone else will. It's only a matter of time.

What I think you need to understand is we are still pretty early in development and a lot of the systems in the game still do not function as they should. Temp is kind of working but we still do not get sick enough when we are out of "acceptable" ranges. The environment does not fluctuate enough to pose a real challenge yet, considering he is talking of adding in snow, wolves, and other hazards. Zombies are still being tweaked every patch and each one gets a little better with their pathing, agro ranges, etc. I could go on and on. Just remember this is not even close to a finished product yet and we are here to help make it better by playing it and giving good feed back.

Thanks for your posts so far. They have been a pleasure to read.

[Disgraced 1123]

Good post.

I regret to inform you that... It's alpha.

I know. So boilerplate. But listen.

The elements are HERE like they aren't anywhere else.

This mod WILL be that.

Maybe not as your wall of text wishes, but it will get there.

It's in such a nascent stage. And look how compelling it is!

If one can negotiate the rapids of the development phase, this will stand out as one of the greatest gaming experiences ever imagined and made real.

Love it now, warts and flaws accepted, and I know it will become so much more in future.

Put me in the fanboy column if you must.

[MikeTupper 68]

and it seems with the success of dayz, there is hope for a real game with dayz-type mechanics to come out (zombieU, WarZ, the dayz stand-alone) so the game we've dreamed about since forever I think will come out in the next few years

[E M P 10]

I think its made pretty clear from the start that the character is a trained survivalist/soldier. Just judging by the kind of backpack he starts out with, having a military-type bandage and the way he vaults obstacles. After all, it would be boring to play a civie who cant do shit and is too scared to pick up a gun. As for horror, what makes a game a horror game is more often than not scripted events aimed at creating tension/surprise/atmosphere/shock. This game has no scripted events whatsoever, and it never pretended to be a survival-horror. It's more just a zombie apocalypse simulator.

We are not merely trained soldiers- we are clearly special forces personnel with incredible training depth. This has made the game into a FPS with some PvE, rather than a survival simulator. If you would be bored by such a game, I can understand. I may be asking for a different game, which will be made in time by someone, if it was not the intention of this game [mod]. I don't think it needs to take a long time for a character to develop basic skills. Consider the 80/20 rule. 80% of the skill in 20% of the time, and the remaining 20% of the skill in 80% of the time. If nothing else, I wouldn't mind at least having the option of choosing to start unskilled, even if others don't wish to do so.

There is TONS of potential for horror/tension/fear in this game. Lots already comes from the threat other players pose. I'd like to increase the threat from the environment, especially by forcing the player into confined, dark spaces when searching for the best gear.

[ponc 100]

came here, didn't read.

whatevert you said, nobody gives a single f*** about what you expect from this game. we enjoy it as it is.

If you do not enjoy, gtfo.

simple as that.

[E M P 10]

I love how you state something as fact when all the stats coming off the servers state otherwise. Current stats show that PVP only accounts for around 20-25% of all deaths. If you are tired of dying to bandits then get better at avoiding cities that are known to be bandit over run and learn to get your gear elsewhere.

Just as annecdotal evidence- only one of my deaths has come at the hands of another player. However, although I have died many times, the rest of my deaths were all intentional (suiciding to get a better spawn to get nearer to my friends). I'm not sure how the stats account for those deaths, but I personally attribute them to the player who killed me and forced me to suicide if I wanted to get near to my friends. That's really picky, but I thought I'd mention it because the server stats don't necessarily represent what has happened in the game, if that makes sense.

[fundan@gmx.de 82]

came here, didn't read.

whatevert you said, nobody gives a single f*** about what you expect from this game. we enjoy it as it is.

If you do not enjoy, gtfo.

simple as that.

You, Sir - fail!

[MikeTupper 68]

came here, didn't read.

whatevert you said, nobody gives a single f*** about what you expect from this game. we enjoy it as it is.

If you do not enjoy, gtfo.

simple as that.

you're such a troll, you know the developpers WANT feedback right? Stop trying to be a smartass, this game is in alpha and it won't stay as it is because its always improving and looking for improvement. You fail

[E M P 10]

Good post.

I regret to inform you that... It's alpha.

Love it now, warts and flaws accepted, and I know it will become so much more in future.

:P Well duh, of course it's an alpha. They are asking for my feedback. If they had said they weren't planning on making changes, then I'd love it 'warts and all,' but they are making changes and reading the forums, so I'm happy to comment!

Thanks :)

[E M P 10]

came here, didn't read.

whatevert you said, nobody gives a single f*** about what you expect from this game. we enjoy it as it is.

If you do not enjoy, gtfo.

simple as that.

I can't believe I made it so long before a troll posted!

You so silly!

[jonahcutter 51]

Are the zombies actually dangerous to anyone beyond noobs?

[MikeTupper 68]

Are the zombies actually dangerous to anyone beyond noobs?

No, not really. Ever since I've not been a noob, I haven`t died from zombies. You learn their patterns, their detection skills, and myself I don't bother going prone anymore. I run through town, then lose them in a building. It's 10 times faster, and makes it harder for snipers to hit you

[Joker716 4]

I only read bits of your post. This isn't a mmo, therefor skill ups or training or getting xp to do stuff better doesn't belong in this game or xp for anything. If you want to play a zombie survival mmo go look up War Z and gtfo.

but zombies do need to be more of a threat.

Edited July 21, 2012 by Joker716

[brokeTM 0]

For the most part I agree, Except the Romero zombies thing. To start they're not undead but infected by some virus. I guess it shut down all their upper brain functions which leaves them with the basics to survive. They'll be able to move and eat but they won't be able to use tools. They'll have started with eating everything edible, this explains canned foods, as they'll not be able to figure how to open it. After all is eaten they'll turn on living things as wildlife and survivors.

Having only basic survival functions doesn't mean they can't run, a infected that isn't starving would have the same stamina as a survivor and hard to lose while running; the weaker ones are slower or otherwise incapacitated. This also means they are as vurnable as survivors, they'll bleed to death when shot, or die when shot in the head.

And it makes them incredibly stupid, they can't open doors, will keep going where ever it went when it lost sight or sound of its target.

Losing an infected by wits should be easy, it's their numbers that should be horrifying. Make them less predictable, make them form hordes that wander around. They could in number cross through a forest or anything. There should be no place anywhere where you'll be safe from infected. Turn up the dread for players because they know that they can run into them anywhere, that having cleared a town of infected doesn't mean more won't wander in,

I complete agree the survivors are too skilled, however I'd like to see survivors beeing able to use almost anything as a weapon, let use shovel, logs of wood, kitchen tools etc to kill the infected with, make guns and ammp even more scarce so that using them requires foretought and consideration.

@Joker716 it IS an Massive Multiplayer Online game... XP is a RPG mechanic, I agree with the OP, survivors should be able to willy nilly shoot Infected and other survivors from 600m the first time they try. That doesn't mean it has to be based on a stat, but it should be realy hard to do.

[Joker716 4]

@Joker716 it IS an Massive Multiplayer Online game... XP is a RPG mechanic, I agree with the OP, survivors should be able to willy nilly shoot Infected and other survivors from 600m the first time they try. That doesn't mean it has to be based on a stat, but it should be realy hard to do.

It doesn't have realms or downtime maintenance, its an FPS shooter with admin servers like battlefield or cod on pc, not a fucking mmorpg that uses xp. retard.

Edited July 21, 2012 by Joker716

[brokeTM 0]

It doesn't have realms or downtime maintenance, its an FPS shooter with admin servers like battlefield or cod on pc, not a fucking mmorpg that uses xp. retard.

Not sure if you're trolling or just that stupid...